No announcement yet.

Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mari? - religious symbols in the 'verse.

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mari? - religious symbols in the 'verse.

    The subject is already touched more than once, last time in a thread about Angel's sacrifice. Both, Buffy and Angel had Mesiah moments. But there are much more moments and symbols in both series. So let's find them.

    Some that we already found in he other thread:

    1. Buffy's sacrifes herself for the world while jumping with her arms wide, like a crucified person. (The Gift)

    2. Angel sacrificing his life for a prostitute (Darla) also with his arms stretched. (The Trial)

    3. Holtz binds Angel up with his arms stretched. (Lullaby)

    4. Connor's impossible birth that was forseen in a prophecy. A prophecy that talks about the coming of somebody who purifies humanity, or destroys it. (Offspring)

    Angel: After the Fall Spoiler
    5. Angel's sacrifice for LA in ATF. He was killed by his former friend, there was a cover with Connor holding him like the Piet?. Angel who refused to die the first time he was asked (by gods), was ready to do it.

    6. Angel's name. He shares the name with god's soldiers and an important prayer in the Catholic tradition. It's both literal and ironic.

    7. Symbolic weapons like crosses and holy water. Also people who are devoted to their religion are capable of recognizing vampires. And vampires can't touch bibles without burning. But they can walk on holy ground, Angelus and Darla spend time in the Vatican.

    8. Angel & Darla resemble Jesus & Maria Magdala in some ways.

    9. Angels/Angelus obsession with Catholicism (Nuns, redemption, god).
    Last edited by Nina; 27-03-09, 06:53 PM.

  • #2
    I am sure that there is nothing in the New Testament saying that Mary Magdalen had been a prostitute. The idea was, I believe, a defamatory invention by the early church which resented Mary's prominence and her unquestionable claim to have been a disciple.


    • #3
      "Blood is life." Vampiric siring in the 'eating' of another, the drinking of profaned rather than consecrated blood, which brings an eternity sustained by murder, is the negative of the eradication of sin & engendering of life & unity with divinity; we even get the description by vampires (especially in "Conversations with Dead People") as being 'connected' with a vast fiery evil.

      Spike's literal embrace of the cross at the end of "Beneath You" after Buffy learns that he won his soul back has to be added.

      I'm not sure where the link is, but Wolfie Gilmore once presented a paper on the Christ-figures in BtVS . . .
      Entrer dans la lumi?re comme un insecte fou respirer la poussi?re vous venir ? genoux - Patricia Kaas


      • #4
        The vampire's religious culture seems to be Catholic in nature, and my impression is that the legend first came out of the old Catholic countries of Europe. I take it that Bram Stoker was an Irish Catholic, although Dracula himself seems to be an indirect literary descendant of Lord Byron.

        Actually one can see Bram Stoker's novel of 1897 as a kind of Marxist parable, in that the Count is a parasitic land owner living by sucking the blood of the peasantry.

        In the beginning ,however, I think all the lore of black magic and devil worship and vampire and werewolves came out of the collective unconscious of Catholicism.


        • #5
          In season seven Spike was repeatedly put into crusifiction positions such as when he was hugging the cross, strung up again over the seal, and finally when he chose to sacrifice his life (he even resurected afterwards as well).

          Connor's unusual Jesuslike birth has already been mentioned.

          When Angel made his "sacrifice" in the final episode by singing away his humanity he was stabbed through the palm of his hand. Also notice who he's sitting with, to his left is Izzirial the devil and to his right was Cyrus Vail (a guy who has close ties with Connor). It's said (I think) that Lucifer used to sit at God's left and Jesus sits at his right.


          • #6
            The cross has also been used to show someone's want/need for redemption. In 'Who Are You' when Buffy/Faith are fighting at the church alter, Faith gets Buffy down and starts screaming "you're nothing but a disgusting murderous bitch, you're nothing, you're disgusting!" She's referring to herself here, and the cross is looming over her in the background. It symbolises Faith’s turning point, her self reflection and her desperate need for redemption.

            I always liked the angel imagery of Buffy in 'After Life' as well. When she's walking aimlessly through the cemetery she walks past an angelic statue and it's wings become Buffy's wings as she walks past. I actually had the image in a banner once. It's a clue to Buffy's revelation at the end of the episode that she was a fallen angel and not something trudged up from hell.

            And you also have the "fallen Angel" imagery in 'Faith, Hope & Trick' when Angel literally falls from the sky in a blast of white light.

            When Connor is born it's no mistake that Fred has the cloth draped over her head, practically a homage to how Mary is depicted when Christ was born. Which says more about Connor than Fred mind you. She was just a prop in that scene.
            Last edited by vampmogs; 28-03-09, 04:36 AM.

            ~ Banner by Nina ~


            • #7
              Originally posted by Michael View Post

              In the beginning ,however, I think all the lore of black magic and devil worship and vampire and werewolves came out of the collective unconscious of Catholicism.
              Or out of cultic or animist practices as old folklore became re-ordered as Christian demonology.
              Last edited by Ravynnia; 28-03-09, 11:07 AM.
              Entrer dans la lumi?re comme un insecte fou respirer la poussi?re vous venir ? genoux - Patricia Kaas


              • #8
                In the Christian believes, the antichrist has a false prophet. Somebody who will pretend to be god-like and saying that he would fix every problem on earth. This creature has powers to make people worship him. Sounds awfully like Jasmine. In the Bible it will be defeated by Christ, Jasmine is defeated by Connor and Angel who are both already seen in Christ imagery. But both men were also slightly playing the part of the antichrist.

                Which comes back in the futures of both, they will save or doom the world. Angel will even play that part in the last/big apocalypse. The antichrist is described as a the ultimate evil in a human body. Which sounds of course like the discription of a vampire.

                This is of course all in a very literel sense.

                -Angel says that somebody would betray him in NFA, followed by Spike's question if he can deny him three times. In a sense you could say that Spike is Peter to Angel's Jesus. But I do think that Wesley plays more often that role.

                -Cordelia's flight to heaven and heaven are both very stereotype for an angel and heaven. Skip also calls it paradise.

                -Wesley is of course (a) Judas, Lilah even makes a remark about that. Wesley delivered Connor (Jesus) to Holtz (Pilatus). Gunn is Judas in the literal sense, he killed Angel in ATF when Angel died for humanity.
                Last edited by Nina; 28-03-09, 12:01 PM.


                • #9
                  There's more Judas with Wesley than just Lilah's Dante's Inferno speech. Wesley also has a line in Origin where he says "Is this your 30 pieces of silver?", which is what Judas sold out Jesus for.

                  There's also Fred at Connor's birth holding Angel's jacket above her head like in the Virgin Mary-kneeling-over-the-manger imagery.

                  And the Benediction speech between Wesley and Lilah where they talk about what Connor's impossible birth represents.

                  One of my favorite moments is Angel entering the church in I've Got You Under My Skin and looking up somewhat nervously at Jesus on the cross above.

                  Angel is very preoccupied with not wanting to go [back] to Hell. His idea of redemption takes on this very religious meaning for him--redemption is "forgiveness" from the Powers that Be. And then there's Angel's speech to Spike about how neither of them are going to Heaven. Also, becoming human is about no longer being a demon for him, which would also fit into this religious context. Demons aren't found in Heaven.

                  And of course, there's the fallen angel imagery that's been around the character of Angel since the beginning. A fallen angel is often considered a demon. Drusilla's tarot cards represent Angel as a fallen angel.

                  It's also worthy to note that Liam was doing the things that led to his "fallen angel" status--he was living a sinful life (which is not the same as being a bad man--he wasn't). Angelus was the fall and he pridefully tempts the fates too far with the gypsy girl. You'll notice that Angelus always takes the credit for things that Darla is actually more responsible for (like Holtz, Drusilla and the gypsy girl). Angelus is boastful and prideful--and is usually the one that gets caught while Darla flees. Pride, of course, is the sin that Lucifer committed and got thrown out of Heaven for and also what got Odysseus in trouble with Poseidon for. Angel is Liam getting a second chance to look back on what happened and the opportunity to atone from it and become a good man.
                  Last edited by NileQT87; 28-03-09, 12:30 PM.

                  "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                  "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."