Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Karma & Destiny

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Karma & Destiny

    I'm not sure about the topic of this thread and if the title covers it. But I will try to explain my idea/question in this post.

    Spike: "The thing about magic - there's always consequences - always!"
    &

    Angel: “You know, this really is just a place to live.”
    Cordy: “No, It’s more. It’s beautiful, - and if it goes away it’s like..”
    Angel: “Like what?”
    Cordy: “Like I’m still getting punished.”
    Angel: “Punished. For what?”
    Cordy: “I don’t know. For what I was? For everything I said in High School just because I could get away with it? - And then it all ended, and I had to pay. - Oh, but this apartment – I could be me again. Punishment over – welcome back to your life! Like, like I couldn’t be that awful if I get to have a place like that?"
    We saw how some of the deeds backfired afterwards. Is that just bad luck or was it a punishment?

    And what about prophecies and other things that were meant to be? Can you 'escape' it?

    Spoiler:
    And what about Angel going to W&H to save Connor and according to Fury, also Cordelia. Both died anyway, only not just them but also Wes, Gunn and Fred. A coincidence or bad karma?


    Or Darla who came back but died soon after her return.

    I think that my question is;
    Is there some power in the 'verse that takes care of things like this, or is it all bad luck?

    And what could be Karma? Do you think that Cordy was really punished? Could you go as far as saying that Tara's dead was Willow's punishment for bringing Buffy back? Or that Joyce dead is the payment for Dawn's life? Is it possible to sign away prophecies? Or was that bluf?
    Last edited by Nina; 13-01-09, 07:20 PM.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    I think that my question is;
    Is there some power in the 'verse that takes care of things like this, or is it all bad luck?

    And what could be Karma? Do you think that Cordy was really punished?
    I don't think Spike and Cordy are talking about the same thing. Cordy's being metaphorical: If she gets the apartment, she's balanced the scales somehow. Whether the scales actually exist or don't, there's a certain degree to which we attract what we deserve. Cordy "attracted" some lessons in humility (i.e., having to get a job and become a "nametag person" just to get a prom dress and later the crappy LA apartment and lack of interest from casting agents) and then, having learned them, was able to "attract" some comfort. Whether some (in-verse) agency was responsible or it was just circumstance doesn't particularly matter. What matters is that she grew and changed because of it. Being humbled was one of the necessary steps for her to become a champion.

    Spike is speaking literally: Magic isn't free, even if it seems like it is and, as such, one must be prepared to pay the cost of using it. Spike probably doesn't know about the law of conservation of energy, but he understands it.
    Last edited by Amuk; 13-01-09, 08:12 PM. Reason: correct wording
    Cordially,
    Amuk

    I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
    Addicted to Buffy

    Comment


    • #3
      Amuk's right, Spike is being very literal. He may not understand conservation of matter and conservation of energy, but he probably has heard of TNSTAAFL, which is basically the rule he's insisting applies.

      The real discussions of anything like "karma" for him or for Angel are better found in Angel's episodes with Faith, or between Angel and Spike in "Damage".

      In "Rm w/ a Vu" I thought Cordy was just insecure -- getting the apartment wasn't as much balancing the scales as it was proof to her that good things could still happen to her. Not that she deserved the apartment for being good, but just to prove that her situation *wasn't* some sort of karma.

      Nina, I was actually going to bring this type of thing up in the thread about Angel and Spike as champions. The one novel idea that the Buffyverse adds to that notion of being a champion is the idea of destiny, a calling, something unavoidable. That's part of what allows people like these major characters, like Faith, like Spike, like Angel, to be "champions" -- not merely what they do, but because they are bound to do it. The Oracles even describe Angel's work as a "fealty" to the Powers in "I Will Remember You". So while I don't think the idea of "karma" is at work in the Buffyverse, the idea of "destiny" definitely is.
      sigpic
      Banner by LRae12

      Comment


      • #4
        I'd say that destiny is something that you can either escape or reshape in the Buffyverse, if you try hard enough. But in the Angelverse, Fate is crueller and more inexorable. Buffy lives in the Yes We Can of the Obamaverse. Angel lives in a more fatalistic Broonite* universe.

        *As in Gordon Brown.


        -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

        Comment


        • #5
          I remember watching the commentary for 'Apocalypse Nowish' and the writers spoke how in the Buffyverse, if a character does something wrong (Gunn and Fred killing her professor) it will always come back to bite them on the ass. I don't believe they were implying "karma" necessarily exits in the verse, but more so that they'll be a fallout, either emotional or physical due to whatever a character has done. Though it's an interesting concept.

          I do believe destiny exists. Angel has a destiny as does Buffy, Faith automatically has a destiny because she's a slayer but Buffy and Angel have both been mentioned in prophecies. I've never believed in signing your destiny away, and without going into to much detail concerning ?After the Fall' I think I'm kinda supported in that. But the whole idea seems silly to me, if it could have been Angel or Giles would have handed Buffy a pen in ?Prophecy Girl' and bam boom, problem solved. I think it's a neat concept to show that Angel was doing it for what he believed was right and not for a reward, but it doesn't make sense.

          In regards to Spike's line about magic having consequences, I think that's something different all together. I believe the term used is ?Thomogenisis' but I may have spelt that horribly (sorry too lazy to look it up right now.) That's been referenced in both Btvs and Ats, by Spike to some extent but most certainly by Willow in regards to a price being paid for bringing Buffy back to life, and by Angel and Cordy concerning a price being paid for Angel trying to use dark magic to find his baby boy. So that seems like a literal rule applying to magic in the verse, Spike is right, there's always a consequence for using magic.

          The Karma one is the most interesting one, I guess it really comes down to your own personal beliefs if you believe karma to exist? I think you can basically apply that to the Buffyverse. If you believe something comes around to bite you on the ass if you do something wrong, or you're rewarded if you do something right then I don't see why you can't believe the same thing for those in the verse.

          ~ Banner by Nina ~

          Comment


          • #6
            In regards to Spike's line about magic having consequences, I think that's something different all together. I believe the term used is ?Thomogenisis' but I may have spelt that horribly (sorry too lazy to look it up right now.) That's been referenced in both Btvs and Ats, by Spike to some extent but most certainly by Willow in regards to a price being paid for bringing Buffy back to life, and by Angel and Cordy concerning a price being paid for Angel trying to use dark magic to find his baby boy. So that seems like a literal rule applying to magic in the verse, Spike is right, there's always a consequence for using magic.
            Yes I agree. For start when they brought Buffy back they helped set in motion events that would ultimately end in Tara's death and Willow going dark. So all the Scoobies did indeed pay a heavy price for their actions, so Spikes comment does indeed seem a viable one in that case sadly.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by sueworld View Post
              Yes I agree. For start when they brought Buffy back they helped set in motion events that would ultimately end in Tara's death and Willow going dark. So all the Scoobies did indeed pay a heavy price for their actions, so Spikes comment does indeed seem a viable one in that case sadly.
              Agreed. Both in a very straightforward sense, as in the demon literally created as a repercussion of the spell in ?After Life,' but also in the sense you talk about. The "aftermath." It's basically what Willow feels guilty about in 'Anywhere But Here' and why she inadvertently blames Buffy and herself for what happened to Tara. It was a consequence, albeit one out of Buffy's control, of the spell earlier in the year.

              ~ Banner by Nina ~

              Comment


              • #8
                Yep, destiny clearly is there. Just look at what Whistler says, the concept is there at a fairly early point already.

                If there's karma I can't quite say, but I agree with the posters above that there definitely are consequences, sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

                Oh, and Vamp, the term you're looking for is "thaumogenesis".
                Sin is what I feast upon
                I'm forging my crematorium
                Your tomb is waiting here for you
                Welcome to my ritual

                -Judas Priest, Death

                Comment


                • #9
                  That question is so insanely hard to answer it's not funny.

                  If it's Karma it would have to be so complicated to work it's scary.

                  Eg Tara died due to the scooby's actions and particularly Willow's.
                  It does punish them yes. Assuming it's to the correct amount. Then where is Tara's karma. Look at all of her bad karma and she is really due some good. But, she's dead.

                  And as to the destiny you are getting into sci-fi time speculation territory.

                  Assuming destiny exists then people are not responsible for their actions. Why? because they didn't choose them. Living like this allows people to be governed by predictions. And a problem with believing in destiny can be summed up quite easily in the statement "the father will kill the son" how does one know what their destiny is for sure? they can't
                  "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "The Father Will Kill The Son" is something that interests me a lot. It's a fake prophecy created by Sahjan to change his own destiny. But it happened, Angel killed Connor in 'Home'. Even the fire, the blood and the shaking earth thing happened. It's quite scary, is it possible to create prophecies and destinies? Or was this nothing more than a coincidence?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      No it's not, believing in a prophecy often brings it about. My favorite is the one which reads. Oh John Citizen will die 10 seconds after reading this prophecy of a heart attack brought on by the knowledge he will die in 10 seconds gathered from this very prophecy!

                      Prophecys are self fufilling.

                      Or there is always the theory that time exists on a linear scale. The buffyverse seems to have a distinct beginning and end incorparate a linear time scale and view it from the outside like we sort of do. And you see that you have a destiny simply because it has already happened but now you are proveing it to happen. So whatever you do is whats in the prophecy.

                      So, if I choose to jump of a cliff there will be a prophecy that says I jump of a cliff If it says I die at 174 trying to remove a bra with my teeth (Lucky Lister!) then there will be a prophecy saying that very thing.

                      So Angel, if prophecies existed and are accurate must have in a way written the prophecy in retrospect. So you are like the Bill Clinton in his autobiography reliving your own decisions.

                      Make any sense? and it would be a understatement of gigantic proportions to say that this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg
                      "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nina View Post
                        "The Father Will Kill The Son" is something that interests me a lot. It's a fake prophecy created by Sahjan to change his own destiny. But it happened, Angel killed Connor in 'Home'. Even the fire, the blood and the shaking earth thing happened. It's quite scary, is it possible to create prophecies and destinies? Or was this nothing more than a coincidence?
                        That's the problem with prophecies. They are open to intepretation. How do we define death? It almost becomes more akin the belief system required for horoscopes and making events fit what is written.

                        Talking about Karma? I don't think there is any metaphysical evidence of Karma in the verse. Sometimes evil wins and people who try to do right suffer without accord but again as Mogs says, depending on what your belief system is you could argue 'mystical deservedness' in any case but I don't think it's been confirmed on the show as such.

                        However entering free will into the debate becomes interesting. If we take the Cassie Newton view, are some things set in stone? If so , which things and how can we tell and are the sources reliable?

                        Where does this leave Lorne's ability? What the heck is he reading? How does this relate to killing Lindsay? Is he going to do something that merits his killing and this inevitable? And if it's inevitable what's the point in killing him anyway if it's going to happen? Hmmm.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X