Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Which big bad(s) failed?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Which big bad(s) failed?

    There are many ways how a bad guy can fail. Some fail because they didn't do anything, some fail because the actor or actress can't bring it over and some fail because the idea doesn't work on screen.

    But if you had to pick one of all the major bad guys, who was the biggest failure? And what was the problem? How could they've made it work?
    69
    The Master
    2.90%
    2
    Angelus, Spike and Drusilla
    1.45%
    1
    The Mayor
    0.00%
    0
    Faith
    0.00%
    0
    The Initiative
    10.14%
    7
    Adam
    23.19%
    16
    Glory
    2.90%
    2
    The Trio
    8.70%
    6
    Dark Willow
    0.00%
    0
    The First
    18.84%
    13
    Wolf, Ram & Hart (incl. Lilah, Holland, Lee etc.)
    0.00%
    0
    Darla as a human
    0.00%
    0
    Vampire Darla & Drusilla
    0.00%
    0
    Holtz (and Justine)
    1.45%
    1
    The Beast
    0.00%
    0
    evil!Cordelia
    14.49%
    10
    Jasmine
    10.14%
    7
    Lindsay & Eve
    4.35%
    3
    The circle of the Black Thorn
    0.00%
    0
    other
    1.45%
    1


  • #2
    Adam failed with flying colours. Adam was bad. Not a big bad. Just...bad! Adam was the biggest failure. He was just not an interesting character to watch, he wasn't...good.

    The rest of the Big Bads...at least they were interesting to watch, they had levels. (well...maybe not the Mayor...), but Adam...

    Adam is the sole reason I can't watch Season 4 often. I just don't like him. At all. Or Riley. But that's a different conversation.

    Death to Adam.

    sigpic
    ♥ He never got out of the cockadoodie car! ♥

    Comment


    • #3
      For me it is Evil Cordelia, I just found the whole thing cheesy and I didn't like that this is the last we saw of her except for in You're Welcome. I really liked Cordelia in Angel and Buffy and I just felt they ruined her whole character, I think it would have been much better if she had to die, that she had died as a hero in battle. I didn't like Season 4 anyway and didn't like The Beast or Jasmine either but I find making Cordy evil was unforgiveable whether it was her in there or not.
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        For me it was a tie between The first and evil!Cordelia. both big bads could be amazing but failed miserable.

        Evil!Cordelia could've been so amazing. She could manipulate and destroy the team from the inside. They tried to do that but it the most cases it was gross (Cordy/Connor sex, kissing with the beast, pregnant belly that moved) and her tricks were too easy. The only thing that was deliciously evil was how she tricked Angel in watching her and Connor have sex. That was just amazing. Evil bad guys should enjoy them being evil of they really are evil. Charisma didn't got the right story for that, and her being pregnant made it not hot, while evil Cordy could be very hot. (come on, bad guys are on their best when they are hot.)

        The First had 3 great moments/episodes; Amends when it almost killed Angel, Lessons when it morphed in all the big bads and CwDP when it was sometimes really scary. But in the most cases it failed, it was not scary at all. It did nothing besides talking, but it never finished it (except with Cloe). It couldn't hurt them and Buffy already made fun of it in season 3. Too many times there was so much potential and all that was wasted.

        I picked the First because evil!Cordy gave us at least Angelus, The Beast and some fantastic episodes.


        I'm also not a big fan of Adam, the Intiative and the Trio. The first two bored me and the last was a poor excuse for big bads. And Glory annoys me, the actress bugs me and she never behaved like a goddess. The most of the time she was pulling her hair and in a fight with Ben or her stupid helpers. Angelus was in season 4 a let down the moment he escaped, but somehow him being Angelus saves a lot.
        Nina
        and her haircut.
        Last edited by Nina; 30-12-08, 07:32 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          For me it would have to be Jasmine!

          The entire season up until the end of 'Inside Out' had been building up to the emergence of what could have been a really awesome and powerful big bad. After all she had managed to do large scale things such as creating a rain of fire, blotting out the sun, manipulating the gang into unleashing Angelus things which frankly made the First Evil of Buffy Season 7 look kinda lame.

          But what do we get? Oh yeah some egotistical Power That Has Been that wishes to bring peace on earth... LAME! I especially hate the long term damage that 'Inside Out' caused in that supposedly most of the choices made S1-3 was due to the manueverings of Jasmine rather than their own freewill. Especially when you consider the fact that Jasmine was only thought of last minute by Joss and the others writers when they found out charisma was pregnant. Jeesh, if they had to go with the messiah style Power-That-Has-Been try not to mess up the entire show to dates structure while your at it. but really they still could have made a pregnant Cordelia a baddie all on her own, though admittedly I think Cordelia being a big bad at all was just a BAD idea. It completely ruins the developments they made with her till that point.

          So yeah overall for me the Jasmine arc while watchable was definately the worst of the big bads that we have seen between the two shows and when you remember other villains like Adam we have seen some pretty bad 'big bads'
          Livejournal

          Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

          Comment


          • #6
            The rest of the Big Bads...at least they were interesting to watch, they had levels. (well...maybe not the Mayor...), but Adam...
            The Mayor? Really? To my mind the Mayor is one of the most nuanced big bads we've had. His quest for immortality overriding everything else in his life. I wasn't thrilled with the big snake but the character himself I love.

            My vote goes to the First. It's an interesting idea that never really came off for me. I think if Caleb had been on the scene first in season 7 and the first revealed later as who he was working for that would have made for a huge improvement. I also think more should have been made of the way the First used psychology and undermining tactics to get what it wanted as well as brute force.
            JUST ENOUGH KILL

            sigpic
            Banner by Ciderdrinker

            Comment


            • #7
              It's a tie between The First, Adam, and Evil!Cordy.

              The First is the single stupidest idea from all of Buffy *sigh* What was up with that!? A huge apocalyptic bad guy who's...incorporeal? Who can't physically hurt you? A huge bad guy who can only taunt you? No, not scary at all. Not scary AT ALL.

              Adam had no personality, and he's just this strong robot, basically. He's better than the First, but still pretty crappy.

              But I voted for Evil!Cordy, mostly, because this arc ended with death.

              Comment


              • #8
                Like most people, I'm torn between The First and Evil Cordelia. I think I am a little biased towards Cordelia in this regard because she was one of my favorite characters on both shows and the way her character was ruined in Season Four was just despicable. I liked the fact that the writers thought of doing something as bold as this but the way the entire arc was handled was simply terrible. I was watching some of the episodes of that season earlier this week -- 'Inside Out', in particular -- and I was amazed at how unlikeable the writers had succeeded in making Cordy. To me, she appeared to be a villain with no depth, whatsoever, and it seemed to me that this entire Evil Cordy arc was designed more for shock value rather than anything else.

                On the other hand, The First was a great premise to start the season with, although it would have helped if Buffy hadn't already dismissed it as a laughable villain in the third season. Like Evil Cordelia, it started out great (that scene in 'Lessons' where it morphs into all the Big Bads continues to be one of my favorite scenes of the show). Over the course of the season, it turned into an idiotic villain whose only purpose seemed to be to ruin Buffy's day by appearing out of nowhere and taunting her. It seems as if Joss decided to make it the Big Bad of the season without thinking too much about how it would function as an effective villain, especially since it was touted to be the 'source of evil' that had 'endless resources at its disposal' (or something similar to what Giles said in 'Bring On The Night'). I think Joss and the other writers took on something way too big to handle on the show and ultimately turned a villain with great potential into a pitiable caricature.

                As far as the Trio are concerned, I have always been shocked to discover that people didn't think they worked well as villains. The scariest thing about these villains, especially Warren, was that they were all regular, non-superhuman people. They were nerds who had the ability to achieve their goals, however chaotic the means. The chances of coming across someone like Glory or Adam in real life is almost zero, but the chances of coming across a Warren are significantly greater.
                Last edited by Ameer; 30-12-08, 08:01 PM.
                Banner and avatar by Nina

                Comment


                • #9
                  I chose Jasmine because, well, god awful (not Gina Torres' fault, just a terrible idea all around).

                  But really, the BB who truly failed worst was Adam. Not only did his plan get foiled, it make any sense. Spark a human-demon slaughter to get bodies for his army when all the demons had been 'chipped'? There's a flaw in Step 2....
                  Cordially,
                  Amuk

                  I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
                  Addicted to Buffy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Amuk View Post
                    But really, the BB who truly failed worst was Adam. Not only did his plan get foiled, it make any sense. Spark a human-demon slaughter to get bodies for his army when all the demons had been 'chipped'? There's a flaw in Step 2....
                    Surely he had a way to neutralize the demons' chips. After all, that's what we saw in Primeval: a pitched battle with demons that weren't inhibited by their chips. And likewise, it seems that he was going to remove Spike's chip if he judged that Spike was enough of a success that he earned it.

                    And that might also explain why the later seasons never showed any signs that there were other demons in Spike's predicament: survivors of the Initiative, but impaired by having chips in their heads. Adam removed all of their chips, and the reason he didn't do it for Spike too was that Spike had a harder task to perform for Adam, and therefore he was the only one who failed at it.

                    As for the poll question: As you can see, I usually defend Adam. The First Evil was mostly lame, so that's the one I'm voting for. I also have a problem with how the Circle of the Black Thorn is destroyed so quickly, two episodes after its existence is revealed. The Circle was a great idea, but we didn't see enough of it.
                    "When you have an obsession you pretty much fit it into your schedule no matter what." --Cordelia

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The First wins it for me hands down. Dear god was that a rubbish concept.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Adam was a nonentity because he had no real personality and no inner conflicts. He was a machine. Prof Walsh was much better, because her moral decline had a tragic quality.She had died spiritually before Adam killed her.

                        I like what I know of Jasmine. In the real world the greatest villains come to us not as monsters but as saviors. That was true of Hitler and Stalin in the earlier years, as it was of Mugabe and remains true of many a small time religious fanatic. The most frightening man is the one who is going to save your soul whether you like it or not.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Adam

                          I've said it in another thread. The whole Adam/Inticiative thing just felt odd to me and it didn't feel like BTVS to me. It went from supernatural to GI Joe. I didn't like it.

                          Even The First, as lame as it got in Season 7, .. as least it was something based in this evil, mythology, supernatural side of things .. much more Buffyverse. And in the beginning and end of the season I felt more 'Ummph' out of The First then I ever did from Adam ever in Season 4.

                          For instance, in Lessons, Beneath You, Conversations with Dead People, Bring on the Night, Showtime, Chosen and End of Days..

                          The speechiness was riduclous but at least The First for me had it's moments.
                          Adam never really did.

                          So I choose Adam

                          But The First definitly had extreme moments of being weak in season 7.

                          As for ATS I think they did really good with most of their villians.
                          Holtz, Lilah, Illyriah, Darla, Dru, Lindsay ect..

                          The only two that stick out for me is
                          Jasmine and Evil Cordy

                          Although I will say that the one really brilliant thing about evil Cordy was she had that element of shock when she was revealed to be a villian. Her killing Lilah was just "Woah".
                          Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
                          ****
                          TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Adam, hands down. He could have been a really interesting villain, but was just plain boring. And there isn't much interaction with the Scooby Gang except that in a few episodes.
                            What? You?ve taught a psycho killer demon how to be human by making him watch Sex and the City?

                            1.02 Never been kissed OUT NOW/ 1.03 Damned by the bell COMING SOON

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I picked the Initiative because they failed most miserably objectively viewed, in my opinion. Their experiment comes back to slaughter them and they seem not to have achieved one single goal. For Adam at least it looks like it's to work out at first, same goes for the Master, the Trio have several moments of success, Jasmine achieves world domination temporarily... but the Initiative's clever plan merely comes back to very literally kick their behinds before they even got started.
                              Bloodsucker
                              Hellmouth Tourist
                              Last edited by Bloodsucker; 13-01-09, 02:05 PM. Reason: grammar error
                              Sin is what I feast upon
                              I'm forging my crematorium
                              Your tomb is waiting here for you
                              Welcome to my ritual

                              -Judas Priest, Death

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Adam. He was really boring and posed no real threat to the gang. His demise was great to watch, but he was never dangerous at all.
                                And his thing about wanting to learn things were lame, too.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  He was sort of annoying, yes, but at least he got a kickass showdown.
                                  Sin is what I feast upon
                                  I'm forging my crematorium
                                  Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                  Welcome to my ritual

                                  -Judas Priest, Death

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I picked the First, it had a lot of potential and it was wasted terribly. There's so many ways they could have used it to make it great and it just failed horribly. But really, they was a few on the list I could have picked.

                                    The Trio: I get the whole idea of life being the big bad in season six and that these guys were supposed to be lame, but that doesn't make them interesting or any more of a waste. If you already know that they don't pose a threat and are just there for laughs, I'm really not interested in seeing them try and take on Buffy when I'm ensured they don't have the muscle or the wits to do it. They were very boring, 'Life Serial' being a big example, I didn't particularly find it humorous or interesting to see Buffy go through their tasks

                                    Adam: I didn't hate the guy as much as everybody else and I think the idea behind him was rather good. I think it was best shown in 'Who Are You?' when he manages to evoke some sort of strength and purpose in the vampires, thus making them far more dangerous. The idea of him being a demon messiah was a good one and I loved the fact that he was gathering disciples around him. What's really interesting is that Faith's far superior to a vampire, but given her inner conflicts about who she was, she was outmatched by the vampire leader who "has strength she could never dream of" and who "Adam had showed the way" that sense of purpose and unity made them more formidable. Sadly though it became a bit of a waste, they never really developed this idea and seemed to loose track with the Trojan horse ordeal, and sadly I do have to agree that he didn't have any real memorable interactions with Buffy.. and did he even meet any other Scooby?

                                    Lindsay & Eve: Can you say boring? I mean what was the point of that really? I'm actually ok with the idea of Lindsay giving Spike a fake destiny to try and place doubts in Angel's head, that actually wasn't a bad idea at all. However, the cumulation of their partnership was very weak when we learnt of his plan in 'You're Welcome,' thankfully the presence of Cordy outshined that a lot. And Eve's hardly a fascinating character which didn't help matters.

                                    Evil Cordy: Kinda.. yuck. She had some good moments, I think Charisma is very good at playing the bad ass but it did seem a little off, and yes the Cordy/Connor sex did seem a little overboard really.

                                    I pretty much enjoyed all the other big bads I have to say, even generally unpopular ones like the Master who I think had a fascinating relationship with Buffy, even present in 'The Wish'... the one guys who's destined to kill her and the only big bad other than Angelus who brought her to tears..

                                    ~ Banner by Nina ~

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
                                      For me it would have to be Jasmine!

                                      The entire season up until the end of 'Inside Out' had been building up to the emergence of what could have been a really awesome and powerful big bad. After all she had managed to do large scale things such as creating a rain of fire, blotting out the sun, manipulating the gang into unleashing Angelus things which frankly made the First Evil of Buffy Season 7 look kinda lame.

                                      But what do we get? Oh yeah some egotistical Power That Has Been that wishes to bring peace on earth... LAME! I especially hate the long term damage that 'Inside Out' caused in that supposedly most of the choices made S1-3 was due to the manueverings of Jasmine rather than their own freewill. Especially when you consider the fact that Jasmine was only thought of last minute by Joss and the others writers when they found out charisma was pregnant. Jeesh, if they had to go with the messiah style Power-That-Has-Been try not to mess up the entire show to dates structure while your at it. but really they still could have made a pregnant Cordelia a baddie all on her own, though admittedly I think Cordelia being a big bad at all was just a BAD idea. It completely ruins the developments they made with her till that point.

                                      So yeah overall for me the Jasmine arc while watchable was definately the worst of the big bads that we have seen between the two shows and when you remember other villains like Adam we have seen some pretty bad 'big bads'
                                      See I think that Jasmine was one of the show's high points and the only finale that could do the build up justice. All through Season Four there had been this huge build up to the ultimate big bad; the apocalypse and even after the countless apocalypse thwarting on Buffy and the constant armageddon threats from Wolfram and Hart, this one seemed like it was actually the real thing. The whole season took the viewer out of it's comfort zone and for once it felt like everyone was actually under threat.

                                      So how does Joss (who states S4 was his favorite season) manage to deliver after this build-up to end all build-ups?

                                      Well he could just have some big scary villain; The Beast 2.0, actually end the world or even send LA to hell (but the time wasn't quite right) but if you ask me that would have gone against everything Angel and every Whedon show stands for. It would have been conventional, predictable and turned the show into just a dumb action series where bad guys come then bad guys get their asses kicked. Whedon is a genius because he does the last thing people expects and makes it work but most importantly everything has a deeper meaning whether it parallels personal angst (Buffy) or universal moral dilemmas (Angel). Therefore Jasmin was the perfect way to end the season.

                                      To understand this you must remember that ever since the elevator scene in Reprise there had been this sad sense that everything was bad in the world and that things were not what they were meant to be. After all the tragedy of Season Three AI's slogan pretty much became world=evil; people= bad. So when Jasmin comes along she finally gives the world what Angel has been yearning for but pretty soon they realise that this is not what they wanted at all. It's through this whole drama that the team come to the realization that humanities flaws are an invaluable asset thus bringing closure to the past three years.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        for me there was two that tie break, they would be the judge and adam. the judge i was expecting more he was madeout to be this big bad, and he wasnt realy. adam because he didnt domuch he walked around tellingpeople about the world.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X