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Who is more of a Champion Angel or Spike?

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  • Who is more of a Champion Angel or Spike?

    While I was posting another thread a thought occured to me. Which of the 2 vampires with a Soul is more of a champion at the latest point in time?

    I'm asking that with everything considered. Who where they originally came from has become the better person? With their individual long journeys. But more importantly which right now is a better person.
    69
    Angel
    56.52%
    39
    Spike
    43.48%
    30
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

  • #2
    You can't compare both vampires. Angel has already a soul for 100 years and Spike is soulled since 2 years. Also Spike had a support system, Angel had to do everything alone for the first 100 years. And afterwards, Spike is treated as a human in both teams because the other characters know Angel and he showed what a soulled vampire is capable of. Also Angel is chosen by the PtB to be their warrior and leader of the team, while Spike is more the side kick who can go where he wants.

    Right now I think that Angel is more a champion, but it's no fair game, the situations are too different.

    But just to say why Angel is a 'greater' champion than Spike;

    Angel dealings with his victims are better.
    Angel is the one who is still standing after unimaginable loss and pain.
    Angel is the one who figured out why he fights, and he doesn't do it for rewards. (I believe that Lynch's sentence about this in the last issue of ATF is a big miss)
    Angel inspires people to fight, leads and makes the big plans.
    And Angel is capable of seeing the big picture.

    But like I said, you can't expect Spike to do the same, due the big differences between the situations. Angel just showed so much more already, that's why he gets my vote.
    Last edited by Nina; 28-12-08, 11:08 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Okay but then what about that old chestnut about spike having used his oppurtunities at being good better?

      Couldn't it be argued that in only a few short years Spike has made so much of a greater leap than spike has, while with admitidly a much better support network he still has made remarkable improvement when compared with Angel? Considering the time etc?

      And that just because Angel has been tested and passed does that make him better than one who has never been tested? Who arguably wants it more and could have greater potential.

      Could you not say that Spike is more of a champion because as a souled vampire he has done little to no wrong when compared with Angel... I'm not going to go into details on Angels mistakes because we both know them.

      Spike with less has achieved a comparitively greater outcome?

      I suppose I could add more to this arguement though I also vote for Angel.
      "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Revan View Post
        Okay but then what about that old chestnut about spike having used his oppurtunities at being good better?
        Why? He had Buffy who almost forced him to get his crap together and fight with her. She treated him like a human, while Angel was treated like a monster and lost all faith in humanity and had no reason to believe in them. Look what happened when he tried to help Judy, look how people talked to him (they were scared of him without him doing anything bad). Big difference, I keep saying that the situations can't be compared. We don't know what Spike would've done when he got a soul in 1900 when he was all alone. Nor do we know how Angel would've dealed with his soul when he got his two years ago while being under the care of people who believed in him and saw potential.

        Couldn't it be argued that in only a few short years Spike has made so much of a greater leap than spike has, while with admitidly a much better support network he still has made remarkable improvement when compared with Angel? Considering the time etc?
        See above; Angel made a gigantic change the moment he got a support network. We have no idea what would've happened, the situations are too different.

        And that just because Angel has been tested and passed does that make him better than one who has never been tested? Who arguably wants it more and could have greater potential.
        We won't know that until Spike is tested the same way Angel is. Maybe Spike will be much better (it's not like Angel is a perfect man, far from it actually), maybe he won't make it.

        Could you not say that Spike is more of a champion because as a souled vampire he has done little to no wrong when compared with Angel... I'm not going to go into details on Angels mistakes because we both know them.
        How many mistakes did Angel make before being really tested? (Let's say BtVS season 1 - Ats season 1). Not much, of course he wasn't all knowing and of course he made some mistakes (Like with Tina) but no big ones. Spike never had W&H against him like Angel did, W&H is already buzy to corrupt Angel for seasons. And they use everything to do so (Darla, blackmailing Angel into the position of CEO etc.). I think that people are to easy with Angel's mistakes and comparing them to others. The other characters don't have an evil ancient force trying to corrupt them, others aren't forced to make decisions like Angel (even Buffy never had to decide between taking over a evil lawfirm or saving her child, not did she had to pick between worldpeace and frredom). Yes, Spike made less mistakes ... but he wasn't challenged to make mistakes. Mogs ever pointed out how they sometimes glossed over Spike's less beautiful deeds while they highlight Angel's missers. Spike did torture that doctor but they almost make it a funny thing, the writers never showed Wood's side in their argument and made Wood the petty man and Spike (and Buffy who was on his side) the right party. It was a grey fight, but the writers never adressed that (or you should count Angel's disgusted face when Spike was talking about his love for his duster). Spike made mistakes as well, of course he did. And yes, those are impossible to compare to Angel's gigantic missers like killing the lawyers. But again, the situations are too different.

        Spike with less has achieved a comparitively greater outcome?
        He certainly did, but the game is too unfair to judge.


        edit:
        In the end everybody just have to pick one and the one goes for Angel because he did more and the other goes for Spike because what he did in a much shorter amount of time.
        Last edited by Nina; 28-12-08, 12:04 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I am going to make something of this you'll see.

          BTW how do you do that individual quote thing? I've tried it but it does not work for me. Unless of course you quote X numbe of times and just shave of the chafe.

          Anyway

          Well the situations can't be compared in a traditional way that is plump one in the situation of the other. Because it just wouldn't come about. We both know that Angelus would never be in the same situation at Spike was. It's not in his character. And the other situation would be... interesting. Still though it wouldn't work.

          However you just can look at their reactions to these events. Spike responded exceptionally well IMO to the chip. But a vampire when compared to a vampire with a soul is almost irrelevant.

          Because without a soul they can't be held responsible for their actions. And when they get a soul they react differently. Naturally this will happen because they are different people.

          So you have to look at what they have, what they came from and what they are and how they dealt with the situation.

          Spike dealt well with the circumstances into which he through himself. Much better than Angel did. And if you look at Angel's reaction to the soul and Liam's personality plus Angelus himself. it would take a hell of a lot longer to get over the soul.

          Plus spike taking into the same account the things considered with Angel. He would react much differently than Angel would. He would likely stay with Dru and try and fix things up in his own way. She would probably tolerate him as well.

          It's how they react with what they had. I believe the question should be asked and can be answered with the following.

          Do you pride more a man who has taken a harder path but made plenty of mistakes or one who has a smoother path but made very very few mistakes.

          Taking into consideration the Nikki/Spike thing Nina, for the record I agree with you.

          And I agree about Angel, but I simply believe that the choice is possible to make
          "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Revan View Post
            I am going to make something of this you'll see.

            BTW how do you do that individual quote thing? I've tried it but it does not work for me. Unless of course you quote X numbe of times and just shave of the chafe.
            There is a button that wraps 'Quote' tags on a alinea if you select the alinea you want to quote and then you press the button with the word baloon. (it's in the second row of buttons on top of the page when you want to post) it works the same as hiding a text for spoilers.

            Anyway

            Well the situations can't be compared in a traditional way that is plump one in the situation of the other. Because it just wouldn't come about. We both know that Angelus would never be in the same situation at Spike was. It's not in his character. And the other situation would be... interesting. Still though it wouldn't work.
            I agree that Angelus would never look for his soul, but that wasn't really what I tried to say. I was talking about the post-soulement situation, not how they got a soul. I think that Spike looking for his soul and his time as a soulless vampire have very little to do with him being a champion.

            My intent was to question what would happen with Spike if he was all alone instead of having Buffy. And the same for Angel, what if Angel wasn't alone but had Buffy to support him.

            However you just can look at their reactions to these events. Spike responded exceptionally well IMO to the chip. But a vampire when compared to a vampire with a soul is almost irrelevant.
            We don't know how important the chip is. Some people say that the chip is the reason that Spike was not evil in Tabula Rasa. It this is the case; the chip is really important. But personally I think that it was a big gaping plothole, the writer who wrote the episode forgot that Spike was at the time a soulless being and not capable of being good from the heart. We saw that vampires don't learn to be evil, they are evil. Darla said to the new born Angelus that he knew what to do and he walked to the man and drank. But that has nothing to do with this topic.

            But I think that also chipped Spike was never close to being a champion. He did some good things but that wasn't making him a champion in my eyes. But maybe we should ask ourselves what a champion is. If it's not more than a person who beats some bad guys ... even Angelus could be a champion considering that he killed the beast and tried to kill Lilah.

            Because without a soul they can't be held responsible for their actions. And when they get a soul they react differently. Naturally this will happen because they are different people.
            Agreed, you can't blame a soulless vampire for being evil. It's their nature, they can control themselves like Harmony did in season 5 or Spike after he was chipped. But in both cases they didn't do it because they wanted it. Harmony needed her job and Spike was in great pain everytime he tried to hurt a human. After they are soulled, their psyche is human and I think that you can treat them as such.

            So you have to look at what they have, what they came from and what they are and how they dealt with the situation.
            Agree, but how do you compare the situations between those two men? Not only the situations are different, also the personalities and their life befoer becoming a vampire. You've to remember that Spike was loved by his mother and he knew that. Angel had no loving parents and lives with the idea that he failed as a human. If you combine that with the different situations after they are soulled, where people were disgusted by Angel and where Spike found a loving person to take care of him. It's really hard to comapre, Spike was much more lucky.

            Spike dealt well with the circumstances into which he through himself. Much better than Angel did. And if you look at Angel's reaction to the soul and Liam's personality plus Angelus himself. it would take a hell of a lot longer to get over the soul.
            I agree that there is not much to be proud of if you look at Angel's life pre-Sunnydale. And that Spike is doing much better in hsi first years. But again, the situation.

            And I think that we know not enough about Liam's life to judge him on that. Don't forget that Liam = Angel and Angel = Liam. I never got why people believed that Liam was a bad man but Angel isn't. They are the same person. Liam was pretty likable the only time we met him (Spin the Bottle), in the flash backs we saw a man who gave up on life. His father told Liam his whole life that he wasn't good enough and in the end Liam gave in and became a loser. To me, he looked a lot like a depressed man, not a bad man.

            William was loved and maybe people laughed at him ... he had somebody who told him how good he was.

            Plus spike taking into the same account the things considered with Angel. He would react much differently than Angel would. He would likely stay with Dru and try and fix things up in his own way. She would probably tolerate him as well.
            I don't understand what you try to say. But I doubt that Dru would stay with a soulled Spike, Dru was pretty disgusted by Angel. And yes, angel and Spike are not only living very differnt lives, they are also very different. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

            It's how they react with what they had. I believe the question should be asked and can be answered with the following.

            Do you pride more a man who has taken a harder path but made plenty of mistakes or one who has a smoother path but made very very few mistakes.
            very very few mistakes? When does a person make a mistake according to you? Because I can list a lot of Spike's lesser moments.

            I think that the question you state is too simple considering their lives. Angel didn't walk just a harder path, he is also challenged to be bad. Nobody ever tried to make Spike look evil like W&H already tries with Angel. Also, they do live different lives, Angel is the warrior good and evil fight about. He has the PtB and W&H pulling on him. Spike can do what he wants, no powers are interested in him and he is not the leader (he was for a while in Spike:ATF but decided that it wasn't his thing). He does what Angel says and if the plan fails, it's Angel's mistake.

            Comment


            • #7
              I voted Spike... I'm breaking up this little debate you have going on there.

              Anyway...back on topic...

              Yes, I voted for Spike, but I may be a little bias...I didn't watch 'Angel'. And I don't like Angel. Angel can go suck eggs. And I am digressing again. I do apologize

              Spike, in my eyes, is the better vampire. With and without the soul. I mean, OK, the only thing stopping Spike from killing is the chip. I see that. But let's look at this, from non-souled points of view first.

              Angel without a soul, is a monster. He's Angelus. Stating the obvious, yes. He wanted to end the world when he was souless, he nearly did. Spike, on the other hand, helped Buffy. He wanted the world to carry on. He wasn't all apocolyptic.

              Spike could love with a soul. I mean, love humanely. Could Angel? Not a chance. And The Judge can prove that one. Fair enough, so could Dru...but she was mental.

              Then, Spike loved Buffy. Without a soul. And, after Season 5, he wouldn't have killed her even without the chip. Which is proven in Season 6. Spike COULD have killed Buffy knowingly, any time after Smashed. But he didn't. Because he's good. Give souless Angel that chance, well, Buffy would probably be dead. Again.

              A souless Spike travelled half way around the world and went through some pretty bad torture, just to get his soul back, for Buffy. Did Angel do that? No.

              Souled up, I still think Spike is better. You can't blame the trigger on Spike, and Spike sacrificed himself to save the world. Now, I don't know what happens in Angel, because, like I said, I haven't seen it, but in Buffy, did Angel do that? No.

              So, it's Spike all the way for me. Spike is the champion, not Angel.

              sigpic
              ♥ He never got out of the cockadoodie car! ♥

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ahm Shere View Post
                I voted Spike... I'm breaking up this little debate you have going on there.

                Anyway...back on topic...

                Yes, I voted for Spike, but I may be a little bias...I didn't watch 'Angel'. And I don't like Angel. Angel can go suck eggs. And I am digressing again. I do apologize
                Well, at least you can admit that you havn't seen the whole picture. Watching only "Buffy" and deciding that Spike is more of a champion would be like someone watching "Angel: the Series" and deciding that Angel is better. If you don't like Angel that's fair enough, everyone has their preferences but without watching "Angel" your opinion regarding his character isn't very well informed.

                Angel without a soul, is a monster. He's Angelus. Stating the obvious, yes. He wanted to end the world when he was souless, he nearly did. Spike, on the other hand, helped Buffy. He wanted the world to carry on. He wasn't all apocolyptic.
                In other words Angelus wants to end the world once and for all, while Spike is perfectly content sitting on the fence and being a parasite. It had nothing to do with helping the world "carry on" because that was the right thing to do. Spike's #1 priority was getting Drusilla back. Helping Buffy save the billions of walking Happy Meals was a consequnce of that. He helps Buffy fight Angel so that he's got no competition for Dru's affections and he gets to keep living. Spike helping Buffy was a good thing for the world but his motivations were entirely selfish.

                Spike could love with a soul. I mean, love humanely. Could Angel? Not a chance. And The Judge can prove that one. Fair enough, so could Dru...but she was mental.
                I think you meant to say "Spike could love without a soul", which yeah, I agree he could while Angelus couldn't. But I don't see what that's got to do with anything because as you said yourself, Drusilla could love as well. And it wasn't "humane" love. What does he do to prove himself to Drusilla in season 3? Well first he tries a spell to force her to love him against her will. Then he decides to capture her and torture her until she loves him again. I don't think that's very humane. Also, if Spike was able to love Buffy in a humane way there'd be no reason for him to get his soul. Spike could love, but not in the same way humans do. Granted that's still more than Angelus could do but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Spike's shadow of humanity makes him more of a champion than Angel.

                Then, Spike loved Buffy. Without a soul. And, after Season 5, he wouldn't have killed her even without the chip. Which is proven in Season 6. Spike COULD have killed Buffy knowingly, any time after Smashed. But he didn't.
                Of course he didn't kill her. He loved her. He would have quite happily killed all her friends though. And he didn't lift a finger to stop Drusilla from killing the people at the Bronze.

                Because he's good.
                I'm pretty sure that random girl in the alleyway would disagree with you in Smashed. What's the first thing he does when he thinks the chip is malfunctioning? He tries to kill a random girl. And he tells her himself how evil he is. He was still a monster, Buffy was only safe from him because he happened to be in love with her. The rest of the world was safe because of the chip.

                Give a souless Angel that chance, well, Buffy would probably be dead. Again.
                That's because Angelus has less humanity in him than Spike, and he has a very personal grudge against Buffy wheras Spike doesn't. I don't see what that's got to do with anything.

                A souless Spike travelled half way around the world and went through some pretty bad torture, just to get his soul back, for Buffy. Did Angel do that? No.
                Let's give Angelus a chip for several years, force him to interact with the scoobies for survival and then maybe this would be a valid point. Angelus was at the top of his game when he was ensouled. Spike had been tamed over the course of several years. They are completely different situations.

                And as far as enduring torture goes, Angel has done that as well, several times. Sometimes it was even at Spike's hands. Remember in season 2 when Spike captured Angel and tortured him? Angel tried to goad Spike into killing him so that Drusilla wouldn't be restored to full health.

                Then there was the time Spike went to LA to try to get the gem of Amara back. He had Angel tortured for information, but Angel still wouldn't budge because he didn't want to see the ring in Spike's hands.

                Another time Angel went through some tortures to restore life to a prostitute who was dying of syphillus (Darla was resurected as a human). The final test was that Angel had to allow himself to be staked. As it turned out, the stake test was a fake-out and Angel didn't have to die but all the other tortures were very real, and Angel was quite prepared to take a stake through the heart just so that this immoral, ordinary human wouldn't die of a sexualy transmited disease.

                Souled up, I still think Spike is better. You can't blame the trigger on Spike, and Spike sacrificed himself to save the world. Now, I don't know what happens in Angel, because, like I said, I haven't seen it, but in Buffy, did Angel do that? No.
                Once again your opionion is pretty biased and uninformed. I don't mean any offence by that, but without having seen Angel in his own show, you can't really have any sort of accurate opinion regarding his character.

                As far as Angel sacrificing his life to save the world... well he was quite prepared to wear the amulet himself. It was Buffy's choice that Spike got to wear it. If it were up to Angel he would have died in the Hellmouth saving the world. So even though Spike was the one who saved the world, we know that Angel was quite prepared to.

                On his own show Angel tried to sacrifice himself to save a room full of half-demons. I'd say that speaks pretty well on his character. It wouldn't have been a big, memorable, world-saving sacrifice like Spike's was but he was still prepared to lay down his life for room full of innocents that weren't even fully human.

                At one point in the show Angel was turned human and could have had a perfect relationship with Buffy. He chose to become a vampire again because he knew he could do more good that way. He gave up what he wanted more than anything for the good of the world.



                So, it's Spike all the way for me. Spike is the champion, not Angel.
                Obviously I disagree. For me, Angel is the true champion if I had to pick only one. Don't get me wrong, Spike's done some great things for the world, but it's still early days in his journey. Angel has been tested more, sacrificed more and saved the world a whole lot more.
                Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 29-12-08, 03:33 AM.

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                • #9
                  Okay normally I love to talk about Angel and Spike and go on and on about my interpretations of their journies etc but in this particular one I think I am going to just default to pretty much everything Nina already said. Spike needs more time as a souled vampire before I could even attempt to make a pro and cons list on who is the better champion.

                  I did have a few thoughts pop up in my head though reading the debate between Revan and Nina...and then reading what Ahm Shere and Vampire in the Rug wrote (by the way ViM, I agree with you!). Hopefully it is not too offtopic and you will humor me by reading below. There seems to be a constant need to show how much better one of them is over the other. And here is my thoughts on that:

                  It is fascinating though that even though they have led different lives big parts of what makes them what they are today come from two things that they do have in common: Buffy and "living" as a vampire with a soul. Buffy shaped both their lives, because of her they wanted to be more and better than they were at the time and both have sacrificed everything to be with her or for being with her.

                  And I think that is why I love them together and see such fascination in the dynamics because they (as much as they hate it) know more about each other than anyone else in their lives...Nina once spoke of them being like brothers and I believe that it is true. The way they try to one up each other, seem to hate each other, think alike etc. I also think they are now protective of each other...I know we haven't really seen it from Angel per say but I truly think he would be there for Spike if he was in trouble just as Spike "reluctantly" has been for Angel in AtF. I truly hope they continue to explore their rival/friendship/brother dynamic as their stories go on.

                  And it is their common factors I like to concentrate on more than trying to say one is "better" than the other.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The funny thing is, I respectfully don't care who is more of a champion, as if such things can be quantified.

                    I used to look at it as something to do with time spent but I don't even think it comes to down to that. I tend to take Angel's speech in Deep Down as a good round up what being a champion is about. It doesn't really matter how you get there, how much you suffered (yes Angel, I'm looking at you) or even if you make a difference. I tend to look at the intentions of that champion however irreconcilable their situation may be.

                    The strive for who is morally superior makes me 'yuk' as does the 'scoreboard'. This includes how they got a soul or indeed, how long they have been fighting.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Can't really say, since, just like Nina said in the very beginning, those two are really hard to compare, due to their different situations.
                      I voted Angel because he has grown more into the role at teh current point, but of course this is somewhat unfair towards Spike because he has not had much time to do so yet.
                      Sin is what I feast upon
                      I'm forging my crematorium
                      Your tomb is waiting here for you
                      Welcome to my ritual

                      -Judas Priest, Death

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I also think that you can't really compare them...
                        they have different histories and you can't compare there acting in very different situations...
                        the question should be what really is a champion ?...
                        so i wouldn't say that one of them is a champion...i don't really like the word...
                        but if i had to choose someone, i would take angel, because he was the one, who had to suffer the most...he didn't ask to get back his soul, so it was harder for him to accept it, to live with it and he started a new life to help other people
                        spike really wanted his soul back, so all the time that he sufferd, he knew, why he did it and he got more support than angel had, when he got cursed
                        'I've seen some horrors, scary behavior... and a couple of fashion trends I constantly pray to forget'

                        Angel
                        Untouched

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm STUNNED beyond belief that so many have voted for Angel. To me it's hands down, Spike. Spike was the hero by far. Don't get me wrong, I ADORE them both, Angel is a prince too, but come on, Spike!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Er... why?
                            Sin is what I feast upon
                            I'm forging my crematorium
                            Your tomb is waiting here for you
                            Welcome to my ritual

                            -Judas Priest, Death

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't like Angel as a person, but as a champion he beats Spike. Spike is such a loose cannon that you can never know where he will be be, or what he will do.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I think Angel had more time to adjust to the champion role to be honest. If you look back his journey started about 4 or so years before Spike's.
                                So I'd say Angel had kind of the head start in the game.

                                Spike just retrieved his soul at the end of season 6 and he was just learning what that truely meant. As the writer's said he was on a heroe's journey, Joss said Spike was a bit more heroic then Angel in that he went in search for a soul.. saying Spike was a bit more evolved. But look at the differences, Spike got his soul and within one year he saved the world and saved many lives. It took Angel 100 years to come to terms with that, he did nothing with his soul, he just hid from the world, feeling sorry from himself.

                                Now Spike had more help, Spike was more evolved. But if we're judging this on who is more of a champion.. let's remember, Spike did in one year what Angel couldn't do for 100 years.

                                Let's not use Buffy or love of Buffy as an excuse, as both men were touched by her and propelled to be better men because of her. As seen from Angel in Becoming.. so we know it wasn't just Spike who was motivated by a girl.


                                I think it's a hard question to answer though. Give me 5 seasons of Spike souled and 5 seasons of Angel souled and then we can compare. It's the only way we can make a fair comparision. Otherwise, we're just mix matching what's more important, time frames and what not.


                                Personally, I think when it comes to emotional advancement, Spike is a head of the game. I think emotionally he gets that it's not about wearing your sins on your sleave, that doesn't change the past, you can be morose until you puke but that doesn't make you a better person. Did Holtz give one damn that Angel was soooo sorry? No. Does Angel being brooding and dour and having his sins weigh him down change what he did to Dru? No.

                                I think Spike got that early on, that you can't hide away in a basement.. you get up and you fight and that is the only thing that matters. Spike got that a hell of a lot sooner. Emotionally he knew that Dana was forever changed, durng the episode Damage, Angel still saw her as a victim.. Spike reminded him that they were victims too once a long time ago.

                                I think Angel punishes himself and continues to do so, always keeping himself at bay.. he's different then the Dana's of the world, but truthfully he's not. He too, was just a man whose life was changed forever in an alley and he became a monster. Spike got that, Angel is still learning that.

                                So emotionally I think Spike might get there first.


                                As far as seeing the big picture.. Angel has that head start, he's been in the game, he's had the soul and been fighting the good fight souled for a while, he knows the score and he may get there before Spike. I think Angel gets the overall mentality of being a hero and champion. I think he's had more know how when it comes to having his OWN journeys, his OWN missions in life.
                                Spike is just starting out. Angel has had expirence and knowledge. I think thats where the big difference is.
                                Knowledge and Emotions.
                                Angel has the Knowlege and is ahead of Spike.
                                Spike has the Emotions and is Ahead of Spike.
                                Both are kind of stunted or stalled or not there yet in one area and the other is expirenced in other places.
                                Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
                                ****
                                TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Michael View Post
                                  I don't like Angel as a person, but as a champion he beats Spike. Spike is such a loose cannon that you can never know where he will be be, or what he will do.
                                  Which makes him a more interesting character to watch. OK, that doesn't prove he is a champion just because he is more interesting, but it's a start. Angel is too boring. (In Buffy). Like I said, I haven't watched Angel, because it didn't really appeal to me. Because I hate Angel. So my answers are slightly, no, scratch that, totally bias. I admit it

                                  Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
                                  Well, at least you can admit that you havn't seen the whole picture. Watching only "Buffy" and deciding that Spike is more of a champion would be like someone watching "Angel: the Series" and deciding that Angel is better. If you don't like Angel that's fair enough, everyone has their preferences but without watching "Angel" your opinion regarding his character isn't very well informed.
                                  Fair points. It's true. But, to be fair, just because someone watched only Buffy, wouldn't mean that they'd automatically choose Spike. I just think Spike is more of a champion than Angel. In Buffy...


                                  In other words Angelus wants to end the world once and for all, while Spike is perfectly content sitting on the fence and being a parasite. It had nothing to do with helping the world "carry on" because that was the right thing to do. Spike's #1 priority was getting Drusilla back. Helping Buffy save the billions of walking Happy Meals was a consequnce of that. He helps Buffy fight Angel so that he's got no competition for Dru's affections and he gets to keep living. Spike helping Buffy was a good thing for the world but his motivations were entirely selfish.
                                  Yes, it was selfish, but he still helped save the world, which is more than Angel done. I don't think, if it came down to it, Spike would be all apocolyptical. I think he enjoys being in the world too much. What he says to Buffy, I can't exactly remember what it was, I haven't seen the episode in so long, but something about there is so much good stuff in the world. Manchester United etc. etc. I think he meant all of those things, and if he didn't have Dru, I'd think he'd still try and help.


                                  I think you meant to say "Spike could love without a soul", which yeah, I agree he could while Angelus couldn't. But I don't see what that's got to do with anything because as you said yourself, Drusilla could love as well. And it wasn't "humane" love. What does he do to prove himself to Drusilla in season 3? Well first he tries a spell to force her to love him against her will. Then he decides to capture her and torture her until she loves him again. I don't think that's very humane. Also, if Spike was able to love Buffy in a humane way there'd be no reason for him to get his soul. Spike could love, but not in the same way humans do. Granted that's still more than Angelus could do but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Spike's shadow of humanity makes him more of a champion than Angel.
                                  Yes...that's what I meant. Without a soul. Sorry

                                  Well I meant, as humane as a vampire could get without having a soul. But, Spike had every reason to get his soul back for Buffy. Buffy had clearly stated that she could never love him, because he is a souless thing. I don't know about you, but going to get his soul to prove to Buffy that he did love her, giving her what she would want, that's something Dru would never even dream of. Which is why he can love more than Dru.

                                  And in my opinion, when the Judge states that 'You two stink of humanity', I'm guessing most of that humanity is coming from Spike. Most, not all.


                                  Of course he didn't kill her. He loved her. He would have quite happily killed all her friends though. And he didn't lift a finger to stop Drusilla from killing the people at the Bronze.
                                  In the beginning, yes, I agree. But after a while, no. He wouldn't dream of even hurting Dawn. I'm not sure about Willow, he'd kill Xander in a heartbeat, (figuratvily speaking) but, heck, I'd kill Xander in a heartbeat. I just don't think he'd kill all of her friends. The only friend I'm sure he'd kill is Xander.


                                  I'm pretty sure that random girl in the alleyway would disagree with you in Smashed. What's the first thing he does when he thinks the chip is malfunctioning? He tries to kill a random girl. And he tells her himself how evil he is. He was still a monster, Buffy was only safe from him because he happened to be in love with her. The rest of the world was safe because of the chip.
                                  I agree. I do. I can't deny that, and in early season 6, thats true. Later on in the Season though, I think he happens to get...hm...'tame'? And without his chip later in the Season, I don't think he'd kill anyone.



                                  Once again your opionion is pretty biased and uninformed. I don't mean any offence by that, but without having seen Angel in his own show, you can't really have any sort of accurate opinion regarding his character.
                                  I agree, it is biased. I can't deny that. But I don't think I could stand to watch Angel. I've tried, and I can't. So even if I did watch Angel, I'm pretty sure my opinion woudn't change.

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                                  ♥ He never got out of the cockadoodie car! ♥

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                                  • #18
                                    Have to jump in here....I chose Angel, btw.

                                    Originally posted by Ahm Shere View Post
                                    Fair points. It's true. But, to be fair, just because someone watched only Buffy, wouldn't mean that they'd automatically choose Spike. I just think Spike is more of a champion than Angel. In Buffy...
                                    Well, yes, but Buffy The Vampire Slayer was only the BEGINNING of the story for Angel. For Spike, it was the beginning, middle, and end. So, you saw all of Spike's story but only a third of Angel's story. Doesn't seem like a fair comparison, after all, seeing as the middle and the end is when he becomes the true champion.

                                    Yes, it was selfish, but he still helped save the world, which is more than Angel done. I don't think, if it came down to it, Spike would be all apocolyptical. I think he enjoys being in the world too much. What he says to Buffy, I can't exactly remember what it was, I haven't seen the episode in so long, but something about there is so much good stuff in the world. Manchester United etc. etc. I think he meant all of those things, and if he didn't have Dru, I'd think he'd still try and help.
                                    Wait, so you think it doesn't matter that he was "saving the world", JUST because he would miss killing people? Yes, without Dru, he would've still helped, because, in his words, there would still be Happy Meals walking around. Sounds like a real champion to me. /sarcasm Honestly, I think referring to "Becoming" and talking about Angel or Spike being a hero is not the smartest thing to do, seeing as both vamps were at their worst at this stage. Angelus and Season 2!Spike.

                                    Yes...that's what I meant. Without a soul. Sorry

                                    Well I meant, as humane as a vampire could get without having a soul. But, Spike had every reason to get his soul back for Buffy. Buffy had clearly stated that she could never love him, because he is a souless thing. I don't know about you, but going to get his soul to prove to Buffy that he did love her, giving her what she would want, that's something Dru would never even dream of. Which is why he can love more than Dru.

                                    And in my opinion, when the Judge states that 'You two stink of humanity', I'm guessing most of that humanity is coming from Spike. Most, not all.
                                    I'm still confused. Are you debating who romantically loves more or who's more humane? Cause, I mean, is there even a debate. Again, if you haven't seen Angel, you don't know how much Angel cares and loves. Doyle, Cordelia, Wesley, Nina, FRED, he cares about them all SO much, and romantically cares deeply for Cordy and maybe Nina. If you're debating who loves more, don't make it Angelus vs. Spike, cause I think it's obvious Spike will win. Plus, I'm not sure what their loves life have to do with being a champion but okay...

                                    About humanity....The Judge also stated that Angel wreaked of humanity, before he lost his soul, which is who we're really comparing...Angel or Spike...not Angelus or Spike. When Angel became Angelus, sure, yes, Spike and Dru have more humanity, but why does that matter?

                                    In the beginning, yes, I agree. But after a while, no. He wouldn't dream of even hurting Dawn. I'm not sure about Willow, he'd kill Xander in a heartbeat, (figuratvily speaking) but, heck, I'd kill Xander in a heartbeat. I just don't think he'd kill all of her friends. The only friend I'm sure he'd kill is Xander.
                                    Wow, he's only kill Xander! He's such a champion! /sarcasm In Season 5/6 of Buffy, Angel wouldn't try to murder any of Buffy's little friends How's that for a comparrison! He didn't dream of hurting Dawn, because Dawn mattered to Buffy, and Spike cares about Buffy. There's a connection there. And, yes, he did dream of hurting Willow, remember "The Initiative"?

                                    I agree. I do. I can't deny that, and in early season 6, thats true. Later on in the Season though, I think he happens to get...hm...'tame'? And without his chip later in the Season, I don't think he'd kill anyone.

                                    I agree, it is biased. I can't deny that. But I don't think I could stand to watch Angel. I've tried, and I can't. So even if I did watch Angel, I'm pretty sure my opinion woudn't change.
                                    What makes you think that he became more tame later on in Season 6? He tried to kill the girl in "Smashed", cut to 10 episodes later, "Seeing Red", he attempts to rape Buffy because she won't love a soulless killer. Wow, he's really become tame /sarcasm I didn't want to blame Spike for his pre-soul stage, but honestly, he had no soul most of the series, and he acts pretty much the same before and after his soulling. So...is there really a difference? (minus the first few eppys of s7)

                                    It's not a matter if you like Angel, it's a matter of the facts upon who Angel is, and what he has done. It doesn't matter if you think he's a jerk, or boring, or stupid, or doesn't have a chance with Buffy. That doesn't matter at all. This has to do with being a champion. Sacrificing himself and the things he wants most for the sake of the world, a small group of half-demons, or even the woman whom he thinks deserves a second chance! And, it doesn't matter if I hate Spike, I think he's a love-sick puppy who has manipulated the Buffy gang. It doesn't matter. If Spike has the evidence of him being a hero to back it up, then it doesn't matter. Honestly, I don't see that evidence. The only thing I see that makes Spike look anything like a hero is sacrificing himself in "Chosen". That's one instance that Angel has done multiple times before. That's why I choose Angel.

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                                    • #19
                                      I don't see that evidence.
                                      Looking after Dawn, and fighting with them against Glory and withholding info about Dawn from her even though he was tortured? That must account for something, right? And please don't come out with the usual "Oh it doesn't count because he was just doing it for Buffy' because who here doesn't do things for people we love.

                                      Sorry I just had to address that before saying personally I really dislike these type of threads as they don't achieve anything but the usual bad feeling between different fan groups.

                                      I happen to love Spike and Angel equally, and I don't I really don't get this 'my character's suffered more than your character and that makes them better' thing. Both did terrible things, and both ended up fighting their way onto the path of redemption.

                                      In fact, I don't get the need to build up one character by tearing down another, which seems to happen a lot in fandom. Saying Character A has inspired more people to go out and save puppies than Character B is not going to make those people who prefer Character B think, "By George! I've been wrong all these years and Character A is obviously better than Character B," it's just going to make them more entrenched in their belief of the intrinsic wonderfulness of Character B and to want to retaliate in kind.

                                      And so it goes on. And on. And on.

                                      All a bit pointless really.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                                        Looking after Dawn, and fighting with them against Glory and withholding info about Dawn from her even though he was tortured? That must account for something, right? And please don't come out with the usual "Oh it doesn't count because he was just doing it for Buffy' because who here doesn't do things for people we love.

                                        Sorry I just had to address that before saying personally I really dislike these type of threads as they don't achieve anything but the usual bad feeling between different fan groups.
                                        I'm not saying that he hasn't done anything great or heroic or anything like that, I'm just saying compared to Angel, Spike doesn't have that evidence stacking up. I have to admit, if Spike had a spin-off show, then yes, he probably would have the same amount of things as Angel, but from what we have seen of them, I have to go with Angel. *shrugs*

                                        I don't find anything wrong with these threads, at all! It's just a heated debate that's friendly and it's just fun to compare ideas. Sure, this thread's been made before, but maybe some people didn't partake in the thread. I know that was a bit OOC, but I don't think these threads are "achieving nothing", because it's just fun to talk about your favorite show and debate them.

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