Master Of Puppets ? About Possessions

[galathea Roadie Find all posts View Profile Close galathea]

So, Lyn and I decided to manually transfer this thread and the discussion from BW over to here, since the latest developments from the finale allowed new insights in the topic and it would be a shame to loose the preceding debate, so here we go:

So, I read of lot of fics and metas lately in which authors suggest that Sam has to feel guilty for not being able to fend off the possession in BUABS and furthermore for not being able to stop the demon from hurting Dean like John did in ?Devil's Trap'. It's also suggested a lot that Sam possibly remembers more about the time of his possession than he admits towards Dean. That motivated me to look into the different possessions we saw so far on the show and how they played out.

In ?Phantom Traveller' we learn that demons usually need to sense a weakness in a person in order to possess them, emotional distress or fear seem to open people up for demonic possessions. At least for the ?big' possessions in SN I think this can be confirmed, John was definitely in distress when he encountered the demon, worrying about his sons, trying to trick the demons with a false gun, being captivated. I guess it's fair to say that Sam's condition around the time the possession took place was definitely emotionally worn out too.

Some of the other possessions seem more random though, like the effortless possessions of the fireman and the bystander in ?Devil's Trap' or the Truck Driver from DT/IMTOD or the janitor in IMTOD. Since we don't know anything about this person's though, we can probably just assume that for some reason or other they fall under the pattern. The fireman distressed because of his job, the truck driver and janitor worrying about something etc., the same might go for Meg. Given the fact that everybody can be distressed or emotionally vulnerable at some point, it might be impossible to fend off a possession altogether, it's just a question of right timing for the demon.

It's interestingly consistent that all short-term possessions go down without the possessed person being able to remember anything. The Co-Pilot from PT admits everything from the beginning of the possession on is blacked out. The truck driver from IMTOD didn't seem to remember anything as well, just like the random girl that delivered the demon deal with Dean in ?Crossroad Blues'. They are all confused and disorientated as soon as the demon leaves the body. Sam displays the same confusion after he comes out of his possession, only that he was possessed over a week, rather than only a couple of hours like the aforementioned.

We only got to see two long-term possessions up to that point: Meg and John. Meg was possessed over a year and obviously was not only conscious for most if not all of that time, she remembered everything the demon did while possessing her body, she also had knowledge about the demon's intentions after the possession ended, as she could point out to Sam and Dean that the demon wants them to come after John and that it is a trap.

John was possessed a couple of days and we know, that he was conscious at least during the time the demon toyed with Sam and Dean and he did seem to remember the events in the cabin just fine, no sign of disorientation or confusion either, after the demon left his body. John being conscious presumably also allowed him to force the demon under his control for a short time to prevent him from killing Dean.

We obviously can't determine if the consciousness or not-consciousness of the victims is a deliberate decision from the demon or if it happens without its intervention and depends on factors out of its reach. I tend to argue for the deliberate decision though. All short-term possessions were using the people as tools to achieve a certain practical goal, crashing the plane, hitting the Impala, making a deal. The possessed person's were random and mere puppets.

At least for the possession of John and Sam we know that is not true, they weren't random. Sam was chosen deliberately to hurt Dean and John was chosen to trap Sam and Dean in order to get to the gun and one could argue that it gives a greater ?kick' (yeah, demons are sick puppies ) to let the possessed person witness the destruction it wrecks on those he/she loves. So it would make perfect sense to let John see Dean dying or let Sam see Dean being tortured by his own hands, being trapped inside their bodies and not being able to do a thing about it. On the other hand the demon could decide to not let Sam witness it, in order to prevent him from taking over control, just like John did with the YED.

So, what are your opinions? Do you think Sam remembers more about his possession than he lets on at the moment? Should he have been able to stop the demon from hurting Dean?

[Ehlwyen ***** Find all posts View Profile Close Ehlwyen]

My thoughts on demons:
Personally, I think fear is just an easy opening for a demon to worm in rather than the definitive factor. I see it similar to how a person is more likely to get a flu or cold when they are stressed, tired, or worried and their immunological state is weakened.

Fear creates a weakened emotional and mental state that the demons can more easily prey upon and enter a person. Why expend the extra effort to take over a stong minded person when you can quickly slip into someone with fear and easily push their consciousness below? The human would also not be so strong to fight back. That would be a demon's thinking when there is a crowd of people to choose from.

I also concieve that the demon doesn't have to "go from door to door" until it finds a person. They demons are percieved as amorphous clouds of smoke (when seen, I don't believe demons always must take visual form). It is most likely that any portion of the demon has all functions of the entity and therefore could sense the state of or try to enter many people at a single time.

But just like a healthy person can still get sick, with more effort and strength a demon can force his way in and supress the host's consciousness. This would be best suited for shorter periods of time, because an emotionally and mentally strong person would eventually be able to fight back against the possession.

The long term possessions are for the strongest of the demons. Because the demon would have to use a lot of force to continually hold the person under. This continual attention to supressing the human would be exhausting and the demon would have to lessen that control at some points to utilize or conserve energy for other tasks. I imagine that these are the times when a person is able to have some type of rememberance of what is occurring. This is also a battle of wills so if the demon becomes distracted or caught up in the moment, then it would let its guard down and the person might be able to surface and remember.



My thoughts on Sam:
I personally do not believe that Sam could have prevented the possession. Meg is a strong demon and high enough in demon heirarchy to have played a role in "the master plan". If she wanted in, she was most likely getting in. Though Sam's worry probably made it a bit easier on her. It is interesting to note, that she did not possess and make Dean her bitch. If I were her, that would have been my first plan as she really hated Dean. That leads me to two conclusions. One, it was easier to get into Sam. Two, there was another reason that possessing Sam was more desirable, perhaps due to his "psychic children" connection.

I also think Sam should not feel shamed that he was hurting Dean and couldn't control Meg. All Sam was doing was punching Dean. The Yellow Eyed Demon did way worse to Dean in Devils Trap before John was able to surface. I think Dean's imminent death then gave John the shock and strength like the fabled lady who lifts a car off her child. Dean has taken a lot of punches and worse and was not in a completely dire situation. Heck, Dean has even asked for Sam to lay a few hits on him, so maybe Sam was just using that raincheck! And as far as Sam pulling the trigger, it is such a disconnected way to inflict hurt that I don't think Sam had a chance to stop it. Also, there is a lot of speculation as to whether Sam purposely missed and only hit Dean in the shoulder.

Okay, I thought Sam said he was able to remember much of the possession.

Are we concerned with the William Harvelle story and whether he knows that? Personally if Sam does know it, I don't believe it is something to say to Dean. Just like Jo came to the same conclusion. If true, John did what he had to do, Meg just embellished and made it seem more horrible than humane. And to tell the truth, Sam probably does know, as the same principle was involved at the end of Heart. Perhaps that is where he got the courage and acceptance to save Maddy. I do not believe that the gory details of William Harvelle's death need to be spread like gossip and should be treated with silent and solemn honor.

Sam admitted to remembering killing the hunter, which to me was the only event that really mattered. I would say remembering the transitition moments of being possessed or released would just be too emotional or turbulent to be remembered except by an extremely strong individual.

For me, the biggest doubt in my mind is whether Sam was completely being controlled by Meg when Dean found him. Was she just acting Sam the entire time or at points would she lie dormant to watch the action unfold naturally? Personally, I find the episode more enjoyable and important to SN, if it truly was Sam confused and finding out all these horrible things when he was "blacked out". Obviously Meg is in possession of Sam when he knocks out Dean and goes after Jo. But is it possible Sam was saying all those things to Dean about wanting to die on his own with only a secret subconcious nudge or two by Meg?

And since we're talking about demons and Meg, I just have to ask if I'm the only one that never saw Meg as a female demon? It never was worth mentioning before as it didn't play into the story and the demon had been sent back to hell. Meg was always assumed to be female since she was possessing a female. Personally I found Meg's actions were always calculated and without gender even in her lust of Sam of Shadow. In comparison, the crossroad demon was extremely feminine. Anyway, I am immensly glad that SN showed that if demon's have gender, they aren't obligated to possess a person of that gender.

[galathea Roadie Find all posts View Profile Close galathea]

Oh I come back to the other points and say some more (although I really agree with you on most points) but there are two points that I would like to answer to right away:

It is interesting to note, that she did not possess and make Dean her bitch. If I were her, that would have been my first plan as she really hated Dean. That leads me to two conclusions. One, it was easier to get into Sam. Two, there was another reason that possessing Sam was more desirable, perhaps due to his "psychic children" connection.

Funny, I think that Meg did exactley the right thing in using Sam against Dean, she considered him his biggest weakness and she was right. Much more fun to play with Dean in this way instead of simply possessing him. To possess him and for example make him kill Sam under possession wouldn't have the same effect on Dean since he didn't do it deliberately. No, I think she could inflict a lot more damage on Dean by acting as Sam.

Also, since Sam's psychic abilities are not controlled by Sam but more likely by the demon (Croatoan) it's not that she could in any form make use of his abilities, so I don't see that as a motivation

For me, the biggest doubt in my mind is whether Sam was completely being controlled by Meg when Dean found him. Was she just acting Sam the entire time or at points would she lie dormant to watch the action unfold naturally? Personally, I find the episode more enjoyable and important to SN, if it truly was Sam confused and finding out all these horrible things when he was "blacked out". Obviously Meg is in possession of Sam when he knocks out Dean and goes after Jo. But is it possible Sam was saying all those things to Dean about wanting to die on his own with only a secret subconcious nudge or two by Meg?

I was thinking too at first that we see confused Sam in the beginning, but upon closer inspection you can actually see that the Meg demon sometimes drops the Sam-act for some split seconds, maybe it's overinterpreting but I tend to see it as a deliberate acting choice of Jared. For example in the scene when they find the dead hunter and Dean leans over the corpse, trying to defend Sam's action as self-defense, the camera pans over to Sam and you see an expression of annoyance flickering over his face, like he can't believe Dean still doesn't want to see it. There are some other short scenes too, that I can't remember right now lol.

Nevertheless I think that Meg actually drew a lot from Sam's genuine feelings in her interaction with Dean, like when he asks him to kill him or that he doesn't want to hurt him. I do tend to think that demons like to use a lot of a person's thoughts and memories and feelings from the host they are possessing, in order to inflict the most damage. Random insults could never be as harmful.

And since we're talking about demons and Meg, I just have to ask if I'm the only one that never saw Meg as a female demon? It never was worth mentioning before as it didn't play into the story and the demon had been sent back to hell. Meg was always assumed to be female since she was possessing a female. Personally I found Meg's actions were always calculated and without gender even in her lust of Sam of Shadow. In comparison, the crossroad demon was extremely feminine. Anyway, I am immensly glad that SN showed that if demon's have gender, they aren't obligated to possess a person of that gender.

I never saw demons as gender bound, they are more likely entities without a specific gender, just using the body that is available. I always saw Dean's statement at the end as a joke to relax the atmosphere and distract Sam from his brooding routine. I just always assumed that the demon acts like the person it possesses, be it male or female.

I guess my intake on this questions roots in the fact that demons don't seem to have a 'true' corporeal form (at least not that we know of, they are always depicted as formless 'smoke') and they also didn't develop from a human like Wendigos or Shapeshifters (and even those can shift into males and females), so I can't see them with a fixed gender.

[Ehlwyen ***** Find all posts View Profile Close Ehlwyen]

Funny, I think that Meg did exactley the right thing in using Sam against Dean, she considered him his biggest weakness and she was right. Much more fun to play with Dean in this way instead of simply possessing him. To possess him and for example make him kill Sam under possession wouldn't have the same effect on Dean since he didn't do it deliberately. No, I think she could inflict a lot more damage on Dean by acting as Sam.

I don't argue that the way it went down wasn't without merit. However, if I was a demon who hated Dean. I would have found it a lot more fun to possess Dean and then let him experience killing Sam slow and painfully while feeling the twisted joy that the demon was experiencing. Then leave Dean unpossessed to wallow in the rememberance his pain, guilt, and misery of that tramatic experience.

*sigh* However, villains do always seem to want to take the extraneous route of hurting or killing someone. And end up getting their plans foiled. It's exasperating and demeaning to evil characters.

However, I guess I'm not quite sure how the endgame would have played out if Dean really had shot Sam in that hotel (or later). Would she have played dead or just laughed at Dean as the demon kept Sam alive? Surely Meg had to realize that Dean would immediately strike out to kill her and not take time to wallow in pain. So the desired effect of him mourning killing Sam wouldn't exist. And she was trapped in Sam's body so it would be harder to escape from Dean.

In my scenario, she gets to escape Dean killing her. The vaporous demon form is much faster than a possessed person. Dean would have to mourn Sam and then start a search for a demon who could be in anyone.

In any event, the plan to hurt Dean by having him kill Sam failed.

Also, since Sam's psychic abilities are not controlled by Sam but more likely by the demon (Croatoan) it's not that she could in any form make use of his abilities, so I don't see that as a motivation

I'm sorry, I flat out disagree with you saying that Sam's psychic abilities cannot be controlled by him and are controlled by an outside force. I do consent that the Croatoan vision may have been sent to him by the Demon. Granted I might be wrong in the long run, particularily if you have gone and read spoilers. However, the show has presented psychic powers as being intrinsic to the child.

There is only one reason why Sam doesn't control powers and that is by his choice. Sam thinks the powers are wrong/evil and therefore is fearful to embrace and try to gain control of the powers. Every other psychic child has gained some type of control by merely choosing to use the power.

Since choice is the only reason I see Sam's psychic powers aren't strong, if a demon possessed him it is reasonable to believe that a demon would choose to use the powers.

I was thinking too at first that we see confused Sam in the beginning, but upon closer inspection you can actually see that the Meg demon sometimes drops the Sam-act for some split seconds, maybe it's overinterpreting but I tend to see it as a deliberate acting choice of Jared. For example in the scene when they find the dead hunter and Dean leans over the corpse, trying to defend Sam's action as self-defense, the camera pans over to Sam and you see an expression of annoyance flickering over his face, like he can't believe Dean still doesn't want to see it. There are some other short scenes too, that I can't remember right now lol.

Nevertheless I think that Meg actually drew a lot from Sam's genuine feelings in her interaction with Dean, like when he asks him to kill him or that he doesn't want to hurt him. I do tend to think that demons like to use a lot of a person's thoughts and memories and feelings from the host they are possessing, in order to inflict the most damage. Random insults could never be as harmful.

Interesting. I'll have to rewatch to see if I notice those flickers. For me the most obvious reason it's probably Meg is how Sam will act confused then point directly to the next clue to lead them where to go. For example, which garage to open or how he pulls out a receipt and practically before looking at it he knows it is in the next town over. Did he even really know what they were even IN?

I still believe it would be more tragic and interesting though if Sam was the one wandering around confused and lost with Dean rather than Meg just playing Dean for a fool. As well as I think it is fun to explore different angles.

I absolutely agree that what she was saying was definitely from Sam's mind. However, for me having thoughts is completely distinct from actually saying or doing. If it was Meg handing Dean the gun then it really takes away from the emotional impact of Heart for me.

I never saw demons as gender bound, they are more likely entities without a specific gender, just using the body that is available. I always saw Dean's statement at the end as a joke to relax the atmosphere and distract Sam from his brooding routine. I just always assumed that the demon acts like the person it possesses, be it male or female.

I guess my intake on this questions roots in the fact that demons don't seem to have a 'true' corporeal form (at least not that we know of, they are always depicted as formless 'smoke') and they also didn't develop from a human like Wendigos or Shapeshifters (and even those can shift into males and females), so I can't see them with a fixed gender.

I guess considering they are not earthly creatures, they may not have gender to reproduce. Though for demons to be so interested in possessing humans it's hard to believe that they would not at least have an affectation to one gender or the other. For example the crossroad's demon seemed to have a lot more fun pretending to be a girl.

Gender is so primal and basic I find it hard to believe that all the demons are genderless at least in mental conception. But I definitely would believe that Meg was genderless. (I just brought this up because I have long seen people elsewhere refer to the demon Meg as female).

But yeah, that's nice that Dean came up with such an absurdly funny joke to brighten Sammy up.

[galathea Roadie Find all posts View Profile Close galathea]

I'm sorry, I flat out disagree with you saying that Sam's psychic abilities cannot be controlled by him and are controlled by an outside force. I do consent that the Croatoan vision may have been sent to him by the Demon. Granted I might be wrong in the long run, particularily if you have gone and read spoilers. However, the show has presented psychic powers as being intrinsic to the child.There is only one reason why Sam doesn't control powers and that is by his choice. Sam thinks the powers are wrong/evil and therefore is fearful to embrace and try to gain control of the powers. Every other psychic child has gained some type of control by merely choosing to use the power.Since choice is the only reason I see Sam's psychic powers aren't strong, if a demon possessed him it is reasonable to believe that a demon would choose to use the powers.

I didn't read any spoilers, I conclude that from how I see his abilities. All other children shown so far could control their abilities by practicing them, but mind control, telekinesis, electrocuting are active abilities, while visions are a passive ability. 'Croatoan' was the first instance where we saw, that the source of the visions may be the demon himself (I don't say it's for sure for all of his visions and that this couldn't be a fluke either), but whatever the source of the visions is, I don't see Sam himself as the source.

As we see the visions usually strike whenever the demon is involved and he never had a vision about an innocent non-demon related victim, I just can't see how he could have any power over the visions. Now, when it comes to telekinesis however, if this is a genuine ability Sam possesses and if it wasn't simply a fluke in 'Nightmare' (for example that he shortly shared Max's ability because he was in the vicinity), he might control that one, but so far we don't get any indication that this is actually the case. It never manifested again and I tend to see it as an exception.

So, I agree with you on the fact that if Sam had any knowledge about how to control his ability he would probably not use it, because he sees it as evil, but at the moment I don't think Sam has any idea on how to use the visions consciously if that was even possible, hence it was useless to Meg. On the other hand, if Sam could control the visions and with its help save innocent people from a certain death, he might reconsider his refusal to use them. But as stated before, I honestly think it may not be possible to actually control his special power.

Interesting. I'll have to rewatch to see if I notice those flickers. For me the most obvious reason it's probably Meg is how Sam will act confused then point directly to the next clue to lead them where to go. For example, which garage to open or how he pulls out a receipt and practically before looking at it he knows it is in the next town over. Did he even really know what they were even IN?

I still believe it would be more tragic and interesting though if Sam was the one wandering around confused and lost with Dean rather than Meg just playing Dean for a fool. As well as I think it is fun to explore different angles.

I absolutely agree that what she was saying was definitely from Sam's mind. However, for me having thoughts is completely distinct from actually saying or doing. If it was Meg handing Dean the gun then it really takes away from the emotional impact of Heart for me.

For me it doesn't take away so much, since I think even if it was Meg acting on how she felt Sam would act, based on his memories and feelings, the notion would be the same. Sam begged Dean to kill him if things go wrong in 'Playthings', so it's not as if he wouldn't actually be able to saying it do Dean. I can see Sam act in the way Meg played him, but I am not sure if it is the most likely scenario.

The reason on why I think it's rather Meg acting here than Sam himself is that in 'Croatoan' Sam decided to kill himself as long as he was lucid, sparing his brother the burden of shooting him, sending Dean away. I don't see why he would act any different here. I always felt that he used Dean's promise to kill him as a safety-net for a situation where he himself wasn't able to care anymore what happens to him or Dean, this is not the case in the motel scene. So I see this rather as Meg being cruel to Dean.

I guess considering they are not earthly creatures, they may not have gender to reproduce. Though for demons to be so interested in possessing humans it's hard to believe that they would not at least have an affectation to one gender or the other. For example the crossroad's demon seemed to have a lot more fun pretending to be a girl.

Well, we don't exactly know that All persons we saw summoning the crossroad demon were male, so maybe the demon preferred to take a female body to make the deal more 'attractive' to the person it was dealing with, a pretty girl might have been more convincing to a young male, than a wrinkly old man, what with the kissing and all. It probably chose male bodies for female summoners.

[Ehlwyen ***** Find all posts View Profile Close Ehlwyen]

I didn't read any spoilers, I conclude that from how I see his abilities. All other children shown so far could control their abilities by practicing them, but mind control, telekinesis, electrocuting are active abilities, while visions are a passive ability.

I guess I am not sure what you are trying to say. This is not Charmed where Phoebe's premonitions were deemed a passive power because she wasn't able to physically attack or defend herself. (Obviously "visions" is more general a term than premonition, but for this argument I'm going to call the power premonition for the most cognizable of the myriad of powers that visions may possibly include. )

By separating the type of powers are you trying to say that Sam isn't one of the psychic children like Max, Andy, Ansem, or Ava? It is possible, but the Demon directly refered to Sam and the psychic children, so that would make Max, Andy, and Ansem something different. I'm continuing to work with the belief they are all psychic children until something happens on the show.

Telekinesis and eletrocuting would definitely be strong offensive powers. However, I don't think mind control is much more active a power than premonition if indeed that is what Sam's power is. To be active, mind control requires a human with a susceptible mind to be there. Whereas, premonition could be utilized as long as a future event was going to occur (so basically anytime before the end of the world).

But just because a power is generally conceived as aggressive or whatever, does not mean that the opposite properties are absent. Like all things, they exist and require a person to place meaning with it.

I think the power of premonition would be a very helpful skill for wartime. Being able to anticipate your opponent's next move on either a grand or intimate scale would most definitely be worthy. Besides any skill is better than no skill at all. And whether or not Sam could use it seems irrelevant, as the demon would be the driver and could figure out how to use it.

Or are you using active or passive to mean that the only time Sam has powers is when they passively come to him? Do you mean that Sam couldn't practice his powers like the other psychic children? I believe this just goes back to the fact the powers are latently there and he's not ever choosing to use them. I do not see why he could not be able to embrace what power he has to practice it.

And going back to Charmed, Phoebe did have the ability to summon her premonitions at will, though "personal gain issues" were often a limiting factor for her. In addition, Charmed at one point portrayed Phoebe as powerful enough to kill with her premonitions.

It has been said before in an interview that Sam doesn't have telekinesis and that it was supposed to be a one time thing. Personally I have been terrified that Sam's power is tapping into other people's powers. I really hope he is not that powerful. But as you mentioned, he used telekinesis around Max. As well as he was unaffected by the mind control of Andy and Ansem.

Whatever the power might actually be, I believe Sam has an intrinsic power.

As we see the visions usually strike whenever the demon is involved and he never had a vision about an innocent non-demon related victim, I just can't see how he could have any power over the visions.

Well that's not entirely true. They were able to save the mom in Home from poltergeist. Granted the problem arose from the Demon visiting years before, but she was still just a random person. In addition, it doesn't make sense for the Demon to have sent visions in Nightmares, Salvation, or Simon Said. In each of those times, if Sam hadn't interrupted, either a psychic child would have gotten away with their killings (instead of being killed) or the Demon would have done what he needed in that nursery and killed the mom in Salavation. Croatoan was a completely different vision, one they probably should have never gone to investigate. If Dean's supposed to kill someone, why help facilitate that by driving to the place?

And as damning as it sounds with every vision being somewhat related to the demon, it may only mean that the demon is what is strong enough to bring the latent power to the forefront. Perhaps if Sam were to embrace the power, he could use it for other things.

Well, we don't exactley know that All persons we saw summoning the crossroad demon were male, so maybe the demon preferred to take a female body to make the deal more 'attractive' to the person it was dealing with, a pretty girl might have been more convincing to a young male, than a wrinkly old man, what with the kissing and all . It probably chose male bodies for female summoners

There was the doctor lady. And the artist did say he recognized the demon hung around all week and ensnared her, the architect, and the grieving husband. Maybe he recognized the demon, maybe he recognized the host human. Anyway, it's not like I'm looking for a definitive answer, hopefully we'll have many more seasons to explore stuff like this.

[galathea Roadie Find all posts View Profile Close galathea]

LOL sorry I did confuse you With passive power I didn't mean 'not offensive', I was referring to my impression that Sam receives the premonitions rather than causing them, hence he isn't activating his powers like the other psychic children do, they seem to come from an outside source. I am not thinking Charmed, I guess my perception is influenced by AtS with Cordy's visions being sent by the PTB and Cordy was simply the receptacle.

What I wanted to say was, that I can't see Sam consciously reaching out into the 'future' to force a vision to happen, that's what I mean with utilizing a power actively instead of passively. While the other children can just use their powers, Sam is dependent on someone elses activity (demon, other children) for his ability to jump in. That's how I perceived it so far. Am I more clear now?

What confuses me is: While premonitions are a very useful tool in warfare (no discussion here) Sam's ability makes no sense if it is bound to the demon's activities. If what the show states so far is true, that his premonitions are all reactions to the demon's or psychic children's activities, because they are on the same psychic wavelength (in lack of better terms), all Sam could monitor would be his own lines (demons), so to speak and not the enemy lines, the humans.

Well that's not entirely true. They were able to save the mom in Home from poltergeist. Granted the problem arose from the Demon visiting years before, but she was still just a random person.

That's not what I was talking about. In 'Nightmare' they also saved Max' mother and in 'Salvation' they saved Rosie's mother and in 'Simon Said' they saved Andy's girlfriend all random persons that were accidentally affected by the events, but they weren't the trigger for the visions.

I was talking about the fact that all visions Sam had so far were initiated by a) the activities of a psychic child (Nightmare, SS) or b) the demon's activity/influence (Salvation, Croatoan, the nightmares about Jessica, Home). On the other hand he had no vision about Meg putting up the trap in 'Shadow' or John's captivity/possession by the demon and their subsequent torture (shouldn't the fact that the demon nearly killed Dean just like Max in 'Nightmare' be enough to again cause a vision about that?) or that the demon showed up in the hospital in IMTOD, which can all be considered demon activities as well. So what exactly causes the visions?

Do the demonic activities need to reach a certain threshold value to trigger a vision for Sam? If so, it would support my theory that it is a passive ability. Also, sometimes the visions come hours/days before the events, sometimes they are coming in the moment the event happens (SS, woman that sets herself on fire) or extremely short before they happen (Nightmare, Dean's death). The ability itself seems so inconsistent to me, which could support your theory that Sam just doesn't use it enough. Hm, and I think I just managed to confuse myself

I am not at all suggesting Sam isn't one of the psychic children though! Just because the different abilities might function differently doesn't mean I exclude some of the children from the group. I just try to figure out how they work.

[Ehlwyen ***** Find all posts View Profile Close Ehlwyen]

OH, well everything makes a little more sense for me now that I know that you are seeing things in terms of ATS. And no wonder you're so fearful for this show. I can't say I ever compared SN with ATS in my mind. I understood what you meant (and agreed) about it being possible that Sam was only a conduit for messages from the demon. However, I couldn't understand your reasoning for why you believed it so much.

While I believe that all the psychic children have a link to the demon (and each other), I don't believe that is what the visions really are. (Because, for the most part, the visions would not benefit the YED's plans.) And on this topic, why isn't Sam having dreams about the YED? Does that mean something?

Sam's ability makes no sense if it is bound to the demon's activities. If what the show states so far is true, that his premonitions are all reactions to the demon's or psychic children's activities, because they are on the same psychic wavelength (in lack of better terms), all Sam could monitor would be his own lines (demons), so to speak and not the enemy lines, the humans.

Well, we really don't know what the visions could be capable if he was able to master them. Right now he's using them for good, to see people and save them. Perhaps the YED would corrupt him and use it to see people and betray them.

Do the demonic activities need to reach a certain threshold value to trigger a vision for Sam? If so, it would support my theory that it is a passive ability.

Though I don't believe that is how a vision should be triggered, I believe that is pretty much how Sam is getting visions now. Something so important or emotionally close to Sam is going to happen, that a vision spontaneously arises without Sam doing anything.

I don't quite understand how a threshold value means that it is passive. Many of the body's systems work on threshold mechanism. For a nerve to carry an impulse or for a muscle to relax so much potassium or calcium or whatever has to be there to reach the threshold and to send it down the line. We conciously choose our thoughts and actions but the mechanism is automated.

Also, sometimes the visions come hours/days before the events, sometimes they are coming in the moment the event happens (SS, woman that sets herself on fire) or extremely short before they happen (Nightmare, Dean's death). The ability itself seems so inconsistent to me, which could support your theory that Sam just doesn't use it enough. Hm, and I think I just managed to confuse myself

Excellent! That was my whole plan, confuse and scatter!

I am not at all suggesting Sam isn't one of the psychic children though! Just because the different abilities might function differently doesn't mean I exclude some of the children from the group. I just try to figure out how they work.

Well the thought has crossed my mind. However, I don't believe we are going to find out that Sam is not a psychic child. Though I am terribly curious to find out why Ava has the same power as him. Is it just random luck? Or something else? Everyone has had different abilities except the two brothers.

[galathea Roadie Find all posts View Profile Close galathea]

OH, well everything makes a little more sense for me now that I know that you are seeing things in terms of ATS. And no wonder you're so fearful for this show. I can't say I ever compared SN with ATS in my mind. I understood what you meant (and agreed) about it being possible that Sam was only a conduit for messages from the demon. However, I couldn't understand your reasoning for why you believed it so much.

I don't compare AtS and SN much, they feel like so completely different shows to me that I usually don't find many connection points between them and I want to see SN as far away from AtS as possible as you know LOL. I just can't help with the vision topic to be reminded of how the visions were addressed in AtS and since it's easier to grasp as a concept for me and the visions in SN are at the moment just not as consistently explained that I guess I tried to borrow that concept for SN until I get a satisfying answer on how exactly the visions work.

What remains as a conclusion so far for me is that Sam needs the activity of either the demon or a psychic child in order to trigger a vision, which makes it an ability that is not under his immediate control at the moment. As long as he needs an outside impulse for his power to actually be activated I can't see his ability as the same as the one of the other children and it also hinders him to practise his ability in the same way other children can in my opinion. It may be possible that Sam would be able to tune his ability to other 'events' as well, but at the moment we don't have any sign of that. That doesn't mean that he isn't as valuable for the demon as the other special children are but I guess we just have to wait for a clarification on that in the show.

While I believe that all the psychic children have a link to the demon (and each other), I don't believe that is what the visions really are. (Because, for the most part, the visions would not benefit the YED's plans.) And on this topic, why isn't Sam having dreams about the YED? Does that mean something?

I guess I have to slightly disagree with that. The visions in itself are not beneficial or non-beneficial to the demon's plans, it's how Sam decides to use the knowledge of his visions that is beneficial or not to the demon. The same applies to the other abilities, Max could have used his telekinetic powers for good purposes, just like Andy didn't hurt anybody with his powers either, it's the intention with which they use the power that turns them into a weapon.

I figure that is the reason why the demon tries to corrupt Ansem or Scott in their dreams, pushing them to overstep boundaries in order to get them to the 'dark side' (in lack of a better term ). Other children were pushed to the dark side by the demon as well, be it by killing their mothers and subsequently turning their life into a living hell (Max) or otherwise (Ansem and Andy's separation could count here, while Ansem may not have a crib fire, his step family could've been abusive or something along that lines). Maybe the demon tried to do the same with the Winchesters by killing Mary, just that his plan didn't come to fruition there.

So the question is, why didn't the demon try to corrupt Sam in his dreams either yet (or apparently Andy and Ava)? Maybe he started with the children that he deemed most susceptible to corruption first? Max obviously didn't need demonic intervention in his dreams to use his powers for evil purposes, he was already so screwed up, he intuitively used it for killing. Ansem and Scott on the other hand obviously needed a push, Andy, Ava and Sam may need a bit more than a few dreams. Remember that the demon told Ansem not to contact his brother, that he had to wait til the time was right. Maybe the demon knew he had to take different measures to recruit Andy (or Sam and Ava) for his plans.

Though I don't believe that is how a vision should be triggered, I believe that is pretty much how Sam is getting visions now. Something so important or emotionally close to Sam is going to happen, that a vision spontaneously arises without Sam doing anything.

But why didn't he have a vision about John's possession then? Or of possessed!John killing Dean? Or about the demon taking John's life in exchange for Dean's life. All very important and emotionally close events to Sam and yet no vision was triggered. And how should a vision be triggered in your opinion then?

I don't quite understand how a threshold value means that it is passive. Many of the body's systems work on threshold mechanism. For a nerve to carry an impulse or for a muscle to relax so much potassium or calcium or whatever has to be there to reach the threshold and to send it down the line. We conciously choose our thoughts and actions but the mechanism is automated.

It means it is passive because Sam can't influence if an event makes it to his 'vision radar' or not, hence he will never be able to actually control his ability the same way the other children can. See my point above, as long as he depends on outside influences his ability is different from those of the other children.

Though I am terribly curious to find out why Ava has the same power as him. Is it just random luck? Or something else? Everyone has had different abilities except the two brothers.

Oh I am curious about that as well! It could be a simple game of numbers: We don't know how many of those children exist, but if there are a lot more children than different abilities it's only natural that some of them share the same ability. Ansem and Andy were brothers and had the same ability, Sam and Dean are brothers and Sam has an ability while Dean has none. All children had one ability, yet Sam for some reason was able to utilize two in 'Nightmare', even if it was a one-shot. Ava was abducted/turned/possessed after she used her ability to save Sam, while Sam wasn't. So, I guess we just have to wait and see!

Edit: That was our previous debate, originating roughly before 'Hollywood Babylon' aired. Continue from here, please

[Ehlwyen ***** Find all posts View Profile Close Ehlwyen]

With passive power I didn't mean 'not offensive', I was referring to my impression that Sam receives the premonitions rather than causing them, hence he isn't activating his powers like the other psychic children do, they seem to come from an outside source.

I was quite shocked that in AHBL Part 1, that Andy's mind control and projection to Dean manifested itself in the same way as Sam's visions do. Could you believe this is just a coincidence or is it only reference to the theory that Sam recieves his visions only and is not a power at all?

[galathea Roadie Find all posts View Profile Close galathea]

I was quite shocked that in AHBL Part 1, that Andy's mind control and projection to Dean manifested itself in the same way as Sam's visions do. Could you believe this is just a coincidence or is it only reference to the theory that Sam recieves his visions only and is not a power at all?

Naturally I wasn't shocked at all since it played right into my theory that Sam's visions are no controllable power but simply the ability to perceive demonic communication, being a receptacle, the visions being 'slammed' into him by some outside source, just like Andy sent them to Dean. 'Croatoan' is the only "evidence" we have so far though that the demon probably is the source of the visions.

If what we see in AHBL I+II is true, that every one of the special children has the potential to activate every power within themselves, the vision thing could simply be used as a communication array between the demon, his army and his human general. Probably with some exercise the communication would be more smoothly and less painful. That's the only use I see for the visions at the moment, if they are NOT a genuine ability to actually foresee the future.