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Angelus & Spike; greatest vampires ever ... or just very lame.

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  • Angelus & Spike; greatest vampires ever ... or just very lame.

    Angelus and Spike should be the most cruel vampires ever, but I've a hard time believe it. Without their women, they are stupid (their plan to kill the immortal was too stupid for words.) and in the most cases not very impressive. Yes, Angelus did some cruel things (Passion, Drusilla) ... but in the most cases it's just a bully with a big mouth and a gigantic ego. And I can't say that Spike makes the impression to be more vicious than Darla, the Master or Penn.

    I think that the writers should stop with telling us how great Angelus was, when they don't show his greatness. The same for Spike. It's like the writers want to play with the Angelus doll and they tell us about their plans with Angelus ... but when they are actually playing with him they are scared to do what they wanted to do with him and we're stuck with Angelus hanging out with Penn or Angelus pissing off Spike.


    I vote for Darla as the greatest vampire ever. There went something horribly wrong in history and Angelus stole her glory.
    Last edited by Nina; 17-11-08, 11:30 PM.


  • #2
    I personally vote for Drusilla as the most powerful of that particular group. And Spike was always written as impulsive and violent, not necessarily cruel. He likes to fight, and he especially likes to fight when the odds are against him. He's one of the few (if not the only) vampires who seeks out Slayers, and he tends to defeat them. That's why he has such a big reputation, not because of his cruelty. He's never been written as cruel, really. The only time that i can think of where he meditates on torturing his victims is in Season 7, when he's trying to sicken Buffy.

    Angelus, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, yes his reputation outweighs what we've actually seen. On the other hand, we have seen some pretty harsh stuff. I'm one of the few who likes his Angel Season 4 appearance more than his Buffy appearance. To me there's no better measure of a villain that how he acts in captivity. When completely helpless he still manages to completely shred Team Angel. Then, once out, he figures out how to kill the Beast like a snap. So, while I do admit that the writers have told more than shown when it comes to Angelus, what they have shown makes me believe he could be everything his reputation suggests.

    Either way, I would love to see some more of Angelus. Either in the past or in the present timeline, I would love to see his reputation proven.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by XavierZane View Post
      He's one of the few (if not the only) vampires who seeks out Slayers, and he tends to defeat them.
      See now I know he said himself that he sought them out but did he really? I mean, he might have with Nikki but if he truely did seek the slayer out he would have been dead long ago. If he really sought the slayer out wouldn't he do it every time a slayer is called? And if he did so, how come they're not dead or he not dead? He's not the running away in the midst of a battle type so he should have a lot more than 2 slayers under his belt if they're coming every generation. I just don't believe the whole seeking the slayer out nonsense. Yes he killed two slayers but how many years were in between? Boxer rebellion to the 70's? It sounds good in theory but there's no way he actually sought the slayer out because he would be dead.... the dusty dead.
      T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

      Proud recipient of the "Vagenis Award of Excellence"

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      • #4
        I don't think he dedicated his unlife to catching Slayers, but he never avoided them either.

        Keep in mind that there's only one at a time, and they can be called anywhere in the world. Buffy was in California when she died the first time, and Kendra was in Jamaica. Then after Kendra died, Faith was in Boston. Plus, very few people ever know who exactly a Slayer is or where she is. I'll bet Spike always kept his ear to the ground about the Slayer, and whenever she was near him (which, statistically, wouldn't be often) he sought her out.

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        • #5
          Well there two very different vampires.

          Angelus
          Angelus is without a doubt the cruelest being in the verse. He sees it as an art form and the reason that Darla never stole the limelight even though she could be just as cruel was because she was just as content watching Angelus at work but not as pro-active. She relied on him for entertainment and he relied on her for someone to appreciate his "art". The reason he is so good at hurting people is because he has such a good understanding of the human psyche something demonstrated with Drusilla and the way he tears apart AI in S4. That's why he was the ultimate boogeyman instead of Darla. In terms of strength you have to admire how long Angel/us has lasted considering the number of battles he sought out coupled with the things we've seen him do as Angel.

          Spike
          It has always been expressed that Spike is one of the most humane vampires in the world. This is first shown with his mother, then his attachment to Drusilla and finally his love for Buffy. His sensitivity and very human frustration can also manifest itself in very intense and often misdirected violence that has no personal connection to the receiving end of his punishments. Any time it seems like Spike is going out of his way to be malicious or hurt someone it is probably based around an eternal conflict or an attempt to upstage Angelus. Spike's legendary reputation is simply based on his amazing skills as a fighter.

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          • #6
            I'd agree that the reason Angelus and Spike were legendary was because they were the headline getters in terms of their particular niches.

            Angelus as it's been said, is the master of sadism and Spike is the master of chaos.

            Darla was more about temptation and corruption but she admitted herself that Angelus overtook her in terms of cruelty.

            The Master was about power and Drusilla was also about sadism with a dose of insanity in the mix.

            I'll agree with Nina that Darla may have been more pragmatic but she didn't do enough to earn herself the reputation in the way that the boys did. What the girls did nurture their potential.

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            • #7
              Of course we don't see much of what earned Angelus his gruesome reputation on screen, because obviously it would be too gruesome to show. But we get hints. Very explicit hints, at times. Remember the flashback inside the coach in "Destiny", where Angelus has dragged his new buddy William along to crash a wedding? From the information we get through the dialogue, Angelus has killed the priest in front of the assembled by crushing his skull so his eyes popped out, then moved on to the groom, torn his arm off and beaten him to death with it. We don't really hear what happened to the rest, except that he fed on the bride (who was taken along as a snack, Angelus offers William some), but after this imagery we can be fairly certain that it was gory.
              Throughout the many episodes, several examples of this kind are mentioned.

              I agree with those that point out that Spike is no sadist, unlike Angelus. What draws and fascinates him is chaos - but he is far from an innocent lamb either. True, he is capable of a remarkable amount of affection and tenderness for a soulless creature, shown not only in the flashback where he turns his mother, but also in his scenes with Drusilla, and the Judge immediately senses humanity in him when he is activated in "Innocence". But still he is brutal, and he considers death and destruction fun - after all, when he discovers that eh can hurt demons in "Doomed", he decides to help Buffy and her friends out not because he likes them, but because he gets his kicks from violence and has found a way to enjoy himself while being safe from the Slayer as long as he cannot fight her - his threats what he will do to her once he gets the chip out are clear enough. He also patrols his graveyard on his own for the fun of it - when he encounters the gang in "Buffy vs. Dracula" (if I remember that correctly), he says he is out for a bit of "violence before bedtime". The way he grins when the demon biker gang wreaks havoc all over Sunnydale ("looks like fun") in "Bargaining" and how he immediately tries to bite (and kill) a woman when he believes his chip no lnger works in "Smashed" despite his love for Buffy and affection for Dawn prove that his feelings do not change his nature.
              Furthermore, we may not see him torture anybody, but clearly he did - we learn in "School Hard" that he earned his nickname for torturing his victims with railroad spikes, and in "Damage" he speaks of families he has tortured and killed.
              As he points out himself in the end of "Damage", Spike never thought about the consequences of his deeds. He saw the suffering of his victims, but he paid it no heed and remained untouched by it. This, too, is a kind of cruelty, though of course he is far less cruel than Angelus was - Angel tells him in that same scene thatit was just the suffering that he enjoyed most, which is what makes the difference between those two.
              Saro49 sums the two up nicely, though I'd add what I just mentioned above about Spike. He made his name not only with his killing of two Slayers and his skills as a fighter in general, but also with his numerous crimes, where not only his impulsiveness was the reason.

              In their confrontation in "Destiny", Spike blames Angel for what he was, while Angel replies that this was Spike's darker side all along. And I would say they both are right. Of course it was Angelus who was Spike's mentor (or, as he says in "School Hard", his Yoda) and taught him a great many things, but in order for Spike to learn he had to have that "innate darkness" already. Angelus taught him, but what he did later on, especially without Angelus there, was his own choice. He could have rejected the teachings, but he did not.

              So I think their reputations are fairly justified.

              And yes, they seem to have goofy moments too, as shown in "The Girl in Question" (and where Spike is concerned there are many more goofy moments) but that does not erase all the other things they did. The Immortal clearly is more powerful than Angelus and works through agents, while Angelus works alone or with up to three allies, but has no henchmen at his command. Yet he is a lot more discreet about what he does, clearly. He takes what he wants, but he does not commit outrageous atrocities that draw attention to him. And the same seems to go for Dracula, by the way - very powerful but less imaginative in hsi cruelty than Angelus is.
              Sin is what I feast upon
              I'm forging my crematorium
              Your tomb is waiting here for you
              Welcome to my ritual

              -Judas Priest, Death

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              • #8
                That?s another difference with Angelus and Spike. Angelus never enjoyed killing "in group", he was flying solo because he believed that death ( and torture)was an art, and he disliked Spike because he was always looking for trouble, looking for a brawl. And I guess when you?re a vampire, you also have to keep a low profile.

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                • #9
                  Angelus was the greater of the two, he killed more people and was generally horrific, he only turned good when he had a soul, but Spike as a vampire was really pathetic, he killed a couple of slayers and some other people, but he spent a lot of his time without a soul helping others and falling in love with a slayer, so Angelus was greater, at least he admitted he didn't love anything when he didn't have a soul.

                  Although, out of the fanged four, I'd say it was a toss up between Darla and Dru as to who was the greatest, Darla because she managed to live for so long or Dru because she's managed to live without dying once, unlike the other three, except of course when she was turned into a vamp to begin with.
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                  • #10
                    Spike spent 3 years helping others while soulless - which isn't very much, considering he was bitten in 1880. "A lot of his time"? Nope, definitely. Very little time. Moreover, the first year he helped them rather unwillingly, and even when he fell in love with Buffy it did not change his nature. And if not for the chip in his head bringing him into that situation, he would never have done any of that, most likely.
                    In fan fiction he gets "cutified" a lot, and thereby dragged out of character. But the truth is that he is no nice cuddly guy when soulless. Definitely not. He shows remarkably human sides, as I elaborated above, but that does no stop him from being a brutal killer.

                    I won't repeat my arguments from above. Just a little detail maybe, one I haven't mentioned before: Remember the teacher he kills quite pointlessly in "School Hard"? "You're too old to eat... but not too old to kill." That's definitely not the way nice cutesy fanfic Spike would act. That's the real Spike, and he's a killer.
                    Sin is what I feast upon
                    I'm forging my crematorium
                    Your tomb is waiting here for you
                    Welcome to my ritual

                    -Judas Priest, Death

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Definitely agree with Bloodsucker here. Spike did spend only 3 years of his soulless unlife helping Scoobies. If
                      Originally posted by Matt View Post
                      Spike as a vampire was really pathetic
                      he wouldn't have even made it to 20th century! Also, it's very obvious from the very start that he has a reputation. And not a reputation as some sort of wimpire, but as notorious vicious killer.

                      Even Angel confirms it:
                      GILES: Well, he [Spike] can't be any worse than any other creature you've faced.
                      ANGEL: He's worse. Once he starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead.

                      Doesn't seem very nice guy to me...
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                      banner by litzie avatar by diane

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nina View Post
                        Angelus and Spike should be the most cruel vampires ever, but I've a hard time believe it. Without their women, they are stupid (their plan to kill the immortal was too stupid for words.) and in the most cases not very impressive. Yes, Angelus did some cruel things (Passion, Drusilla) ... but in the most cases it's just a bully with a big mouth and a gigantic ego. And I can't say that Spike makes the impression to be more vicious than Darla, the Master or Penn.

                        I think that the writers should stop with telling us how great Angelus was, when they don't show his greatness. The same for Spike. It's like the writers want to play with the Angelus doll and they tell us about their plans with Angelus ... but when they are actually playing with him they are scared to do what they wanted to do with him and we're stuck with Angelus hanging out with Penn or Angelus pissing off Spike.


                        I vote for Darla as the greatest vampire ever. There went something horribly wrong in history and Angelus stole her glory.
                        I want to vote for Darla as well! Her cruelty was paired with intelligence and restraint. Her ambitions were large but not full of bluster and impossible attainability. Most of Darla's plans were for her own survival or for bettering her own position.

                        I'm going to definitely agree that the show spent more time telling us how evil Angelus and Spike were than ever showing us. Angelus and Spike were often portrayed more as having the intelligence and manners of mean belligerent drunks than of calculating killers.

                        Also Angelus and Spike often were too consumed with their loves and attachments to see straight. While Darla was bad ass enough to leave Angelus to die in order to save herself when they were chased by Holtz. Darla's scene kicking Angel out after realizing he has a soul is also extremely powerful in her revulsion of him. And the twist of trying to force Angel to kill the same baby he had hours earlier spared is a very deliciously naughty twist. Yep, I'd definitely vote Darla.

                        Great topic to bring up, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this.

                        Lydia made the punch!

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                        • #13
                          I agree with Ehlwyen and Nina too. Maybe the boys really stole the girls' fame?

                          Then again, we do have lots of textual evidence about Angelus and Spike being such a badasses. Demon in Villains says that Spike is "a legendary dark warrior". Or Master calls Angelus "the most vicious creature I ever met".
                          It's quite obvious they couldn't show all the violence and other things onscreen. And maybe it makes it all even more terrifying - that we only hear about the awful things they did, but never actually see so many of that? (So that it's all left for us to imagine).

                          Also I think you cannot say that Angelus was such a badass while Spike was just very lame, helping to save the puppies for 100 years. Or that Spike is a vicious slayer-killer whereas Angelus is lame (and his hair sticks straight up!).
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                          banner by litzie avatar by diane

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by missperoxide View Post
                            Also I think you cannot say that Angelus was such a badass while Spike was just very lame, helping to save the puppies for 100 years. Or that Spike is a vicious slayer-killer whereas Angelus is lame (and his hair sticks straight up!).
                            Technically it was Angel who was saving puppies because he had a soul when he did that, but I agree when he was ensouled he was pretty lame because of the guilt he felt and the way he tortured himself, but while he was soulless he was a ruthless killer who saw art in his work, he moulded himself entitely by himself with a little guidance from Darla (most of the time he was flying solo), but with Spike he was Yoda'd by Angelus so it's kind of like he was needy and he made out that he was in love with Drusilla and Buffy when he was incapable of loving anything because he had no emotional capacity, technically no vampire does because that comes with the soul. Then you saw Spike team up with Buffy so that he could get Drusilla back and because he had a vendetta against Angelus who made him what he was.

                            Then he came back for about three years and was helping the Scoobies, okay, so he had a chip in his head which meant he had to reign it in a lot, but he sought out his soul rather than kill Buffy, which could have been done in theory when you think of how he was talking about shooting her in Fool For Love, so he killed two slayers, but compared to the amount of people he helped when he didn't have a soul that isn't that big a deal, then he finally got his soul back and was tortured for about a month or two (compared to the years and possibly ongoing amount that Angel suffered for) and was completely fine with what he had done in the past because he knew he couldn't make up for it.

                            Technically Angelus was a great vampire, killing without mercy, however Angel is kind of pathetic because unlike Spike he chooses to brood about everything he did way back when, but Spike is pathetic for letting his feelings (or believing he had feelings) get in the way of what he was doing, I mean, he had a chip but that didn't mean he had to save people, he could've just refused, if it was Angelus in his shoes with the chip I highly doubt he would've helped anybody, but Spike isn't pathetic after he got his soul because he accepts what he did and knows what he has to do to make up for it or when it's needed to be done, for example in Damage when Dana's talking about Nikki and the Chinese slayer he doesn't break down and start brooding (as Angel might've), but he defends himself by explaining how it was.

                            So, Angelus was great and Angel is a little pathetic, but Spike (pre-soul) was pathetic while Spike (post-soul) is great, but both of them are as great as one another (now) because they are both champions.

                            And I think I just lost myself in that post, it probably doesn't make any sense.
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                            • #15
                              Matt, I think I do understand what you mean to say, I just don't exactly agree with everything.
                              If I understand it correctly, you say Spike is sort of lame because Angelus taught him all of his evil ways, but what you are ignoring, in my opinion, is the fact that Angelus wasn't part of the gang anymore from 1898 on (despite his "cameo" in 1900 ), and from then on Spike wasn't under his control anymore. Angelus showed him the way, so to say, but it was Spike who was free to make his choices on how to act, and that he did, building more and more of a reputation as he went along (though the "Spike" part was built earlier on, already; he insists on using that nickname in the scene where he and Angelus quarrel in the mine in "Fool for Love", and his insisting also points at the fact that it was him who came up with the railroad spike torture, in my opinion, not Angelus making him do it). Of course Spike is overshadowed by Angelus, but that does not keep him from being a vicious killer in his own right.
                              But I think I do see what your point is, correct me if I don't.

                              As for Darla and Drusilla, we don't really learn much about their deeds, but their reputation clearly is less great. No doubt Darla is cruel and self-serving, but apparently she never committed any atrocities as great as Angelus committed them. I tend to think that she is a bit like the Immortal or Dracula there - a dark, evil and powerful creature, but draws less attention to herself. With Drusilla I'm not sure how many crimes she committed on her own (except feeding on people of course, duh ), but clearly her reputation is not quite that bad either - which does not make her a harmless fluffy kitten by far of course, don't get me wrong.
                              Sin is what I feast upon
                              I'm forging my crematorium
                              Your tomb is waiting here for you
                              Welcome to my ritual

                              -Judas Priest, Death

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                              • #16
                                I saw Darla as a woman who wanted power. Even as a human she became a prostitute to earn her own money. I can't help to think that she was not interested in being a wife of a poor man or working for a rich woman. She found a way to earn her money while being free. She got rich because she had the right clients and the money was hers.

                                After her death, she became the Master's favourite. If she wanted something, she could get it. She had lots of power over the Master even in if you can't see it on the surface. And when she was looking for a mate, she didn't got the first person she could find. She went looking and found a man with lots of potential. Liam was maybe looking like a man without resepect for women, he wasn't one. He wanted a strong wife, an equal. The perfect man for Darla, and in no time she had also power over Angelus.

                                In the episode 'Angel' she lost because she lost control over Angel, something that was unthinkable for her. Also in that episode; she used guns to kill Buffy. It's not spectaculair like Angelus killing Jenny and sneaking around. But it's a hell more effective.

                                And when she returned, you saw how soon she started using Lindsay, a big player in W&H. Also her games with Angel showed how easy she could gain her control back over Angel.


                                Darla is not the vampire who does the legendary killing. But in the end, she is probably the most dangerous.
                                Last edited by Nina; 14-12-08, 12:30 PM.

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                                • #17
                                  Very well put, Nina. Darla works in the background. She does not keep herself entertained by making killing an art, but rather has a purpose that she serves and for which she works. She is "discreet" yet effective, and dangerous not least because of her manipulating subtlety.
                                  Sin is what I feast upon
                                  I'm forging my crematorium
                                  Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                  Welcome to my ritual

                                  -Judas Priest, Death

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