Things you can't forgive....or can but not easily

[Sassy]

We had a thread like this back on BW, although I think it was for only Buffy. What are some thing that BTVS, ATS, and/or Firefly characters did that you just can't forgive?

Buffy

1. The AR, I just can't forgive that.
2. Buffy going to Spike, instead of her friends in S7. They had been there with/for her for seven years. Instead of talking to them she goes to Spike. What about her friends, the ones that had been there for her?
3. Angelus' many bad deeds, i.e. arranging Jenny's body, m,aking Dru insane. I don't blame Angel for it, just Angelus. Granted these things that Angelus did is what made him interesting.

Angel

1. Wes not telling Angel and the rest about the phrophsey, kidnapping Conner.
2. Angel deserting AI, becoming completely obsessed with Darla.

Firefly
(I haven't seen the movie, Serenity. So I can't say anything about that.)

1. Jayne turning on the crew. Him trying to turn in River and Simon, they are suppossed to be part of his crew.

[SarahRegi]

We had a thread like this back on BW, although I think it was for only Buffy. What are some thing that BTVS, ATS, and/or Firefly characters did that you just can't forgive?

Buffy

1. The AR, I just can't forgive that.
2. Buffy going to Spike, instead of her friends in S7. They had been there with/for her for seven years. Instead of talking to them she goes to Spike. What about her friends, the ones that had been there for her?
3. Angelus' many bad deeds, i.e. arranging Jenny's body, m,aking Dru insane. I don't blame Angel for it, just Angelus. Granted these things that Angelus did is what made him interesting.

what part specifically are you talking about about Buffy not going to her friends in s7?

i for one hated the fact when her friends ganged up on her and metaphorically kicked her out of her own house. and it is Spike who was the only one that was really there for her when she needed it.

i also hate when in s3 i think it is, that when she comes back from LA to Sunnydale, her mom makes a welcome home party with all her friends and they invite the whole city and they all ignore her. then Xander butts in the discussion that Buffy and her mom are having. instead of asking her what's wrong with you, why did you leave? they just go at her face accussing her of what a bad friend she was for not telling them goodbye. they didn't even bother to think of her, of what she was feeling. they just thought of themselves, like if they were the victims.

[Sassy]

what part specifically are you talking about about Buffy not going to her friends in s7?

i for one hated the fact when her friends ganged up on her and metaphorically kicked her out of her own house. and it is Spike who was the only one that was really there for her when she needed it.

I don't like the whole kicking out thing either, and you are right: Spike is the only one who was there for at that point. I was refering to her pretty much ignoring her friends in favor of Spike, even as early as the first half of the season. I mean don't get me wrong, Buffy is my favorite character but she should have went to her friends.

i also hate when in s3 i think it is, that when she comes back from LA to Sunnydale, her mom makes a welcome home party with all her friends and they invite the whole city and they all ignore her. then Xander butts in the discussion that Buffy and her mom are having. instead of asking her what's wrong with you, why did you leave? they just go at her face accussing her of what a bad friend she was for not telling them goodbye. they didn't even bother to think of her, of what she was feeling. they just thought of themselves, like if they were the victims.

I forgot about that. They shouldn't have started the thing infront of everybody, or invited anyone out of the Scoobies for that matter. They should have talked to her, found out what all the reasons were for her running away.

[KingofCretins]

See, I'm pretty close to being unable to forgive Buffy running away in the first place, and think that Joyce and the Scoobies were justified and correct in their arguments with her.

Buffy was ridiculously out of line when she said that Spike was the only one who'd had her back. Absolutely untrue, it's not even a two-sided argument.

I'll try to think of stuff on the others and not just rip on Buffy.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I don't like the whole kicking out thing either, and you are right: Spike is the only one who was there for at that point. I was refering to her pretty much ignoring her friends in favor of Spike, even as early as the first half of the season. I mean don't get me wrong, Buffy is my favorite character but she should have went to her friends.

I don't think she was ignoring them. I think that the reality was that Spike was a bit needy at that time and she was trying to do right there, considering that he was really trying. AND she was doing her job, crazy vampire+soul=needs supervision

I also think that she was under a lot of pressure-moving all those people into her house seriously took away her ability to be alone and process everything. She maybe needed quiet, alone time. Well, hanging with Spike is probably about as close as she was going to get. He didn't ask for anything, he didn't push his ideas, he just listened and supported.

The thing that I have had the hardest time with: Giles plotting to kill Spike behind her back. Not because of the injustice to Spike, who was and had been helping, but because of the disrespect it showed to Buffy. He left her during season six, told her she didn't need him anymore that she needed to do these things for herself (including be the slayer and raise a teenager-cause that's a reasonable request for a twenty-year old). (Ok-maybe I'm still a bit irritated by that choice too.) But then he showed no respect in her decisions. She was following her instincts, just like he had taught her to do. He can't have it both ways.

[Salvation]

-Xander leaving Anya at the alter ,this was a huge mistake from him & i cant forgive him til this day.
-Xander not telling Buffy about what Willow told him so.
-Anya cheating on Xander with Spike.
-The Gang Kicking Buffy out of her own house.
-Buffy using Spike just to feel anything instead of talking about it with her friends.
-Faith for trying to kill Angel.
-Angel for taking over W&H while he said over & over again that will never happen.

[Nikki]

So many things I can't forgive.. where to start?

I think I'll just list my top ones!

Angel wiping the gang's minds of everything that happened around Conor when he took over Wolfram and Hart. He had no right to do that to the people who would die for him. It really is a version of mind rape.

Same with Willow using that on Tara and then again Buffy. You don't fix things by making people forget about them. I feel less strongly about Willow trying it though, mostly because I don't think she knew better and the addiction to magick is like an addiction to drugs, complete loss of yourself.

Xander leaving Anya at the alter Biggest mistake of his life. At least he comes to realise it, but he shouldn't have made it in the first place. It's classic Joss to rip something apart in the most painful way. I get Xander being scared, everyone has doubts, but when you live together and share everything marriage doesn't change anything! /sigh

Buffy not killing Dawn in the Gift I get Dawn is her last family member and that she didn't ask to be the key, but sacrificing yourself for her leaves the world in real trouble. Who is gonna save Dawn from the next apcolaypse? Buffy must have known that the slayer line now already considered her dead. Yes I get it was a great dramatic ending, but I hated that she did that. And one of my favourite moments is in season 7 when she admits if she had to do it again she'd let Dawn die! This unforgiveable could be helped by the fact that I hate Dawn, every second of her on screen is one second too long!!!

Buffy being kicked out in season 7 was pretty horrible. Especially how just a few episodes earlier Xander had given this lovely speech on how they should all trust her as she's laid down her life twice to save the world etc. I felt quite pleased when Buffy ended up getting the Sycth and Faith led the potentials into a bomb

Sorry I have to respond to this..

-Anya cheating on Xander with Spike.

You can't be mad about that.. when someone dumps you on your wedding day you aren't with them anymore, therefore sex with someone else isn't cheating. Anya says it best 'You left me at the alter, I don't owe you anything'

If someone left me at the altar I'd probably kill their family so I think Xander got off easier than he should have done for that!

[KingofCretins]

I agree with Nikki about Anya and Spike -- leaving someone at the altar constitutes a break-up. And, while it was completely gross, just like it was for Buffy, because it's Spike, it wasn't actually cheating.

However... was leaving Anya at the altar the wrong thing to do? "Selfless" raised a pretty substantial issue in their relationship. Anya admits explicitly that she just clung to whatever came along. She was completely codependent with Xander and used him to define herself. Is that something a marriage can be sustained by? I honestly don't know if they were as 'in love' with each other as they thought.

I can't see arguing for Buffy killing Dawn. She was literally programmed to protect her, after all. I found it more annoying that they gave Buffy this theretofore unheard of moral relativism in Season 7 than that she wouldn't kill Dawn in Season 5.

[Nikki]

I agree with Nikki about Anya and Spike -- leaving someone at the altar constitutes a break-up. And, while it was completely gross, just like it was for Buffy, because it's Spike, it wasn't actually cheating.

I'd forgotten what it feels like when someone agrees with me! Thanks!

And I wouldn't say sleeping with Spike is gross though.. have you seen that body?!

However... was leaving Anya at the altar the wrong thing to do? "Selfless" raised a pretty substantial issue in their relationship. Anya admits explicitly that she just clung to whatever came along. She was completely codependent with Xander and used him to define herself. Is that something a marriage can be sustained by? I honestly don't know if they were as 'in love' with each other as they thought.

Xander and Anya breaking up is one thing, but leaving her at the altar is another.. he couldn't have figured out they were wrong for each other before she put the white dress on?

But to your point about Anya/Xander's relationship. I don't think it is a bad thing if you cling to something/someone and then it grows into much more. If you do love that person and love who that person makes you then I think that's what is important. I do think they had a good relationship considering Anya is a 1000 year old ex-demon and Xander is Xander. No relationship is perfect but they did seem to be happy and working well together which is why I found the break up at the altar a real shock.

But ok off topic now. Bad me!

[Dorian's Kitten]

I can't see arguing for Buffy killing Dawn. She was literally programmed to protect her, after all. I found it more annoying that they gave Buffy this theretofore unheard of moral relativism in Season 7 than that she wouldn't kill Dawn in Season 5.

I'll give it a shot. Sacrificing herself was the easier way out. Buffy herself pointed out that the hardest thing in life was living it. Instead of dealing with the pain of losing her sister, she chose to die. Understandable certainly, it is a choice no one should have to make-but she left the world vulnerable so that she wouldn't have to deal with a world without Dawn. Also I'll point out that in the long run one would have to question what kind of life Dawn would have had with her sister dead. The gang was definitely trying, but it would seem inevitable for them to begin getting injured and killed more often. And we learned just the next season that Spike's chip would eventually kill him, taking out her super-strong babysitter/friend.

While I do think it was forgivable, I can see it as strongly questionable.

[Cori]

So many things I can't forgive.. where to start?

I think I'll just list my top ones!

Angel wiping the gang's minds of everything that happened around Conor when he took over Wolfram and Hart. He had no right to do that to the people who would die for him. It really is a version of mind rape.

Same with Willow using that on Tara and then again Buffy. You don't fix things by making people forget about them. I feel less strongly about Willow trying it though, mostly because I don't think she knew better and the addiction to magick is like an addiction to drugs, complete loss of yourself.

I completely agree. Angel's motives may have been honorable but he had no right whatsoever to do this to his friends.

Xander leaving Anya at the alter Biggest mistake of his life. At least he comes to realise it, but he shouldn't have made it in the first place. It's classic Joss to rip something apart in the most painful way. I get Xander being scared, everyone has doubts, but when you live together and share everything marriage doesn't change anything! /sigh

Again I agree. I think being left at the altar is one of the worst things that can happen to a woman and I really hate that Xander put Anya through this ordeal. If he had such doubts about their marriage, he had plenty of time so say something earlier and not at the last possible moment.

Buffy being kicked out in season 7 was pretty horrible. Especially how just a few episodes earlier Xander had given this lovely speech on how they should all trust her as she's laid down her life twice to save the world etc. I felt quite pleased when Buffy ended up getting the Sycth and Faith led the potentials into a bomb

That's one of the things I'm least likely to forgive ever. I hated how her alleged friends treated Buffy in this situation. Dawn, the ungrateful brat who wouldn't even be alive if it weren't for Buffy, takes the cake with her "this is my house too". I always disliked Dawn but I did start to tolerate her a bit better in season 7 and then she does something like this!

Another thing that I find hard to forgive:

Xander's judgmental and self-righteous behaviour towards Buffy when it comes to her vamp boyfriends

I have never liked Xander but when he is being all jealous of Angel and/or Spike and tries to put Buffy down for dating them, all in this judgmental tone of voice, then I strongly dislike him! It's none of his business if Buffy feels like dating vamps! It's the whole Xander's male ego being threatened because Buffy would rather be with vampires than with a normal guy like him that really ticks me off.

[SarahRegi]

Another thing that I find hard to forgive:

Xander's judgmental and self-righteous behaviour towards Buffy when it comes to her vamp boyfriends

I have never liked Xander but when he is being all jealous of Angel and/or Spike and tries to put Buffy down for dating them, all in this judgmental tone of voice, then I strongly dislike him! It's none of his business if Buffy feels like dating vamps! It's the whole Xander's male ego being threatened because Buffy would rather be with vampires than with a normal guy like him that really ticks me off.

true true true, i also hated him for this. Mr me me me... selfish jealous me.

regarding Buffy sacrificing herself for Dawn in the Gift, i don't think she did it only because she didn't want to deal with anything anymore, but more because of what the first slayer told her when she was at the desert. that death was her gift, when she understood that statement, she felt at that moment that is was SHE who needed to die to save Dawn and the world, and so she felt she was doing the right thing. i for one do not hate her for that, i actually ADMIRE her actions there.

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by Cori
That's one of the things I'm least likely to forgive ever. I hated how her alleged friends treated Buffy in this situation. Dawn, the ungrateful brat who wouldn't even be alive if it weren't for Buffy, takes the cake with her "this is my house too". I always disliked Dawn but I did start to tolerate her a bit better in season 7 and then she does something like this!

I hated that scene too and couldn't stand when Dawn gets up and says this is my house too.. I mean what were the writers even thinking when they wrote such a line? Yet, funnily enough s7 Dawn wins me over again when she tells Rona to shut her mouth.

I have never liked Xander but when he is being all jealous of Angel and/or Spike and tries to put Buffy down for dating them, all in this judgmental tone of voice, then I strongly dislike him! It's none of his business if Buffy feels like dating vamps! It's the whole Xander's male ego being threatened because Buffy would rather be with vampires than with a normal guy like him that really ticks me off.

I very much side with Xander when he says to Buffy, "what were you thinking?" in relation to Spike. She was sleeping with a soulless murderer, really what was she thinking? However, I disliked Xander's attitude towards Angel based solely on the fact he was a vampire, although I think it not only stems from his male ego but also the fact he hates vampires since Jesse was killed. Regardless, vamp with a soul who was helping and was good, Xander had no right to act the way he did towards him.

[Sassy]

I hated that scene too and couldn't stand when Dawn gets up and says this is my house too.. I mean what were the writers even thinking when they wrote such a line? Yet, funnily enough s7 Dawn wins me over again when she tells Rona to shut her mouth.

I completely forgot that scene. It's Buffy's house. If they don't like what she's doing then they should leave.

I very much side with Xander when he says to Buffy, "what were you thinking?" in relation to Spike. She was sleeping with a soulless murderer, really what was she thinking? However, I disliked Xander's attitude towards Angel based solely on the fact he was a vampire, although I think it not only stems from his male ego but also the fact he hates vampires since Jesse was killed. Regardless, vamp with a soul who was helping and was good, Xander had no right to act the way he did towards him.

Xander shouldn't judge Buffy. He dates Anya, a vengence demon(well ex-demon but still. And when Buffy had to kill Angel, the man she loved(at the time anyhow) he just says, "Kick his ass." But when it's Anya that needs the killing it's don't do it.

I had forgotten about those ones for some reason.

[KingofCretins]

Xander shouldn't judge Buffy. He dates Anya, a vengence demon(well ex-demon but still. And when Buffy had to kill Angel, the man she loved(at the time anyhow) he just says, "Kick his ass." But when it's Anya that needs the killing it's don't do it.

By ex-demon, you of course mean... human woman. Not quite the same thing at all. As far as him reversing on Anya... didn't Buffy do a reverse, too? Between the two, which one can impose their opinion by force?

[Sassy]

By ex-demon, you of course mean... human woman. Not quite the same thing at all. As far as him reversing on Anya... didn't Buffy do a reverse, too? Between the two, which one can impose their opinion by force?

I should have phrased that better. What I ment was Angel was good,m working with the Scoobies, why should he get anymore trouble than Anya. As for the whole killing, not killing thing I just think thats it's funny that Xand clearly wants her to kill Angel but when it comes to Anya she shouldn't. Sure, Buffy was more willing to kill Anya than Angel but she still knew what she had to do. When it came down to it she killed Angel, tryed to do the same with Anya. Plus Anya became demon again by choice,m Angel had no such choice as to being evil again.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's getting late here .

[KingofCretins]

When it came down to it she killed Angel

I'm one of the few that really thought everyone in "Selfless" had a valid argument. But this is a significant idea... Buffy killed Angel "when it came down to it". Prior to that, she had so harshly resisted the idea of killing him that she passed up multiple chances to do so, which cost several people their lives, and almost certainly would have tried to avoid doing so if she knew the spell was being cast, and ultimately only did so when it was a either/or choice of that or the world being sucked into hell.

In the case of Anya? First response, no hesitation. No endless stalling to see if there could be a spell, or imploring her to see reason, just "she's off the wagon, time to kill her". I can see how that would frustrate Xander. Especially since, as I pointed out, all Xander can do is have his opinion. Buffy can implement hers.

[vampmogs]

I'm one of the few that really thought everyone in "Selfless" had a valid argument. But this is a significant idea... Buffy killed Angel "when it came down to it". Prior to that, she had so harshly resisted the idea of killing him that she passed up multiple chances to do so, which cost several people their lives, and almost certainly would have tried to avoid doing so if she knew the spell was being cast, and ultimately only did so when it was a either/or choice of that or the world being sucked into hell.

Difference is that Angelus and Angel were two different minds, Angel wasn't willingly doing any of the horrible things Angelus did, from what we can tell Anya retained her morals when she became a demon again. Buffy couldn't shove a soul down Anya's throat and make everything all better, Anya already had a soul and she did this anyway. I'm not saying I agree with Buffy not taking Angelus out straight away, although understandable, but it was a different situation. I also don't buy it when people say Buffy is being hypercritical, I don't think it is so much about being a hypocrite but rather Buffy has grown up and learnt, when people grow up they see things differently. Surely Xander and Buffy had learnt from Angelus that they can't allow their loved ones to go on killing when others are at risk, Buffy understood that but did Xander?

In the case of Anya? First response, no hesitation. No endless stalling to see if there could be a spell, or imploring her to see reason, just "she's off the wagon, time to kill her". I can see how that would frustrate Xander. Especially since, as I pointed out, all Xander can do is have his opinion. Buffy can implement hers.

Well that's not exactly true. Buffy already had the issue on her mind at the start of the episode and states later in the episode that it has crossed her mind before which Xander can't deny it has on his as well. It isn't as if Buffy came to this decision just like that, she'd been thinking about it and after everything that had happened with Angelus wouldn't it be careless of Buffy not to put a stop to Anya straight away?

[KingofCretins]

Difference is that Angelus and Angel were two different minds

I reject this argument across the board. It not only makes the curse itself meaningless, it flies in the face of most of the continuity. "Eternity" makes no sense *at all* if they are completely metaphysically distinct entities.

Well that's not exactly true. Buffy already had the issue on her mind at the start of the episode and states later in the episode that it has crossed her mind before which Xander can't deny it has on his as well. It isn't as if Buffy came to this decision just like that, she'd been thinking about it and after everything that had happened with Angelus wouldn't it be careless of Buffy not to put a stop to Anya straight away?

That's one of those Season 7 instances of them telling us and not showing us. Buffy seems pretty indifferent to Anya's demon status, even in "Beneath You" and in "Same Time, Same Place". Was she thinking about the Anya situation as something that would require Anya to be slayed when she left her alone with her paralyzed sister?

[vampmogs]

I reject this argument across the board. It not only makes the curse itself meaningless, it flies in the face of most of the continuity. "Eternity" makes no sense *at all* if they are completely metaphysically distinct entities.

Not really, lots of what we have seen during Btvs and Ats has shown that Angel and Angelus are two distinct entities, it has even been stated as the case by Jasmine. Both options have been explored but it depends entirely on which one you want to choose, there is just as much evidence to suggest that they are two distinct entities than there is to suggest they are not. Wether they are two distinct entities or not they clearly had different motives and feelings, Angel went to help Buffy, Angelus made it his goal to torture her, Angel spent a great deal of time trying to make Faith change and become a good person, Angelus tried his hardest to convince her she was an animal. There was a distinct difference in their mind here and hence one can't be deemed responsible for something the other chooses to do. Why is it no one gives credit to Angelus for all the good things Angel has done but are quick to lay the blame down on Angel for everything terrible Angelus has done?

That's one of those Season 7 instances of them telling us and not showing us. Buffy seems pretty indifferent to Anya's demon status, even in "Beneath You" and in "Same Time, Same Place". Was she thinking about the Anya situation as something that would require Anya to be slayed when she left her alone with her paralyzed sister?

No she wasn't because that wasn't an instance when she was required to be slain, this was. The fact it crossed Buffy's mind didn't mean at the present she wasn't willing to give Anya the benefit of the doubt and I think that is a very important point here. Buffy gave Anya chances when she was a demon, Anya threw those chances in Buffy's face.