Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"Into each generation a slayer is born..." Strategizing: The Significance of Slayer

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • "Into each generation a slayer is born..." Strategizing: The Significance of Slayer

    First off, I am warning anyone willing to enter this thread: The first post that I am including is very long, almost as if considered an essay. If you are up to the read, then I fully recommend you try and read what I have written. I am taking a lot of time of my day in order to express this entire debate, along with opening up any new ideas and concepts that one has and feels towards the topic of the importance of "A Slayer." I would really hope that you would enjoy reading this, but I know there are some that may not have the time/patience to swallow this amount of writing all at once. Again, please if you may.. add your opinions and thoughts to this thread. I really feel like it's one of the most important topics that can be talked about on this site, and I would really enjoy having everyone get heated simply because I love what we are talking about here. When one does respond however I still would more interesting responses than 4-5 sentence answers. Responses should be at least a paragraph.. but you are welcome to type anything you feel at any amount of words. Just giving you a heads up of what I'd appreciate. Without a further due...

    Read and discuss.

    There has been a minor sub debate in the "I Love Kennedy.." thread upon the realms of a Slayer's superiority, and whether or not Slayers should be held on a higher pedastal, have certain priveleges other than the obvious physical and survival advantages. I felt as if it was an interesting enough topic to bring up alone, as it doesn't seem to be getting resolved in any sort of way, nor has it been reaching to other posters other than the few that have been focusing on it. Furthermore, I have seen bits and pieces of this debate in other threads before.. and I feel as if everyone could contribute to it somehow because of how sparcely its been covered.

    Before I begin this essay, I'd like to give a short summary of what exactly has been brewing in the "I Love Kennedy.." thread.
    Originally there had been a feud over whether or not Kennedy had been a helping hand to contribute something to the Scoobies other than sarcastic comments and rude gestures. A few people had argued that despite her delivery, she still had been stepping up to the plate while others had been cowering in fear. Others responded with the notion that even though she had been useful to a degree and extent, 1. Her comments and naiveness outweighed any type of help that was given. 2. The simple fact that she is a potential who hadn't been there for more than 4 months limits her judgement, no matter if she had given good advice or not (depending on what you had thought of her insight to the situation they had been in). This thread is made specifically for the second route that had been paving.

    Rather than just focusing on the season seven arc, I figured I would expand the bigger ideas and concepts that were acting as the blueprints for our opinions debated upon the Kennedy issue.
    Before Buffy The Vampire Slayer had even begun, a concept had already been born. Women can be strong, and have the ability to fight back just as any male character in the world could. The show in itself had a goal and this was to express the idea that women have power, and this power needs to be shown through better and more structural ways than The Spice Girls. However, just as any other "Good guys vs the Bad Guys" type of story, within of the realms of the show there was always the notion of a superhero. The Slayer. As the show once demonstrated in its early years, the series would begin with a man reading an excerpt that was revealed as early as episode one.

    "In every generation there is a Chosen One. She alone will stand against
    the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness. She is the Slayer."

    Thus the show kicked off revolving around a girl that would be considered special. A person who had a calling to be fulfilled. A calling that would involve risking their life by attempting to defend and eventually rid the world of the monsters and demons that our parents once told us that were never real. Not only was The Slayer considered just "different" by purpose, they are also different by a number of physical and mental capabilities. For example, Slayers have the ability to heal quicker than a normal human being would. They also are incredibly stronger as a consequence simply just by their Destiny. While many Slayer train in order to become stronger, slayers have had a head start for pretty much all human physical abilities: Speed, agility, strength, etc. Not only were Slayers given exquisite physical qualities.. but mental as well. Slayers eventually were able to recognize a vampire simply by their presence. Slayers also have the ability to recognize when a vampire is approaching them or others in a well assumed distance. What would be considered an infringement of Spider-Man.. a "Slayer sense" so to speak. As a collection, these qualities have forever put The Slayer at a distance from the regular world. A clear example of this is demonstrated with the character "Faith," one of whom alienated herself simply because she had felt like she could not fit in. Buffy, despite having many friends and support unlike Faith, still understood the loniliness that came with the package. Even though Buffy was surrounded by people that loved her as much as she had loved them, she still had felt as if they could not and do not understand her lifestyle. The pain and loniliness that a slayer sometimes feels. The moments when she wishes she could change things so that life could be more simpler. The moments that a slayer wishes she could someday live a happily married life without the worry of causing a death in the family, let alone leaving their family in destraught if sadly she would have to die at some point (As shown with Nikki Roberts.) Buffy understood that no one could ever understand where she was coming from, or be in her position. Even before Buffy and Faith had lived, The First Slayer had proposed to Buffy the concept of a slayer always being alone, no matter where she was or who she was with. Buffy had not fully understood this until she had been resurrected and continued living.

    The rest of this post will contain mostly of just my opinion, rather than an explanation of what the show had been demonstrating. Just warning readers in order for them to understand that I am not stating my opinions as the opinions for everyone. I had made a comment earlier in another thread that "I speak for the audience as well." I was being rude by stating this, and I am sorry for anyone that took offense to this comment. The audience is filled with tons of opinions, all of different kinds. However, I still will shy away from stating what I feel is the majority of the audience's opinion. You all have the freedom to correct me if you feel as though I am wrong on this judgement as well though. My thoughts on the majority are solely based on my opinion as well. This should have been addressed in the First vs PTB thread.
    Where does all of this finish a full circle at?
    The apprehension that Buffy, Faith, along with every slayer that had ever lived prior to "Chosen" were and are superior to the world and the people that live upon them.
    It is at this point that people begin to interpret the concept of a Slayer in many different ways. As for me, I've always gotten my interpretations from what I based what the show had been trying to display to me. Therefore, my opinions about a Slayer being superior to a human is completely centered around my understandings of the purpose of the show.
    It's obvious the fact that Slayers have a numerous amount of survival skills that put them at a higher pedastal than the average human. This is demonstrated obviously by Buffy and Faith when it is evident that they succeed others in certain qualities that have already been mentioned. Therefore it is in my opinion that because of this Slayers will and should have the mic in their hand at all times. Meaning that humans and any other sort of creatures simply cannot have the rule of thumb when it comes to strategizing. Slayers automatically are given the gain when it comes to a decision.. simply because well: They're slayers. Slayers are mean't to lead.. are are mean't to offer their insight and plan for a situation because it is their job. No other person's opinion should come before their's. Before anyone else is recognized, a slayer should be the first on the list. The problem here lies. Some people aren't able to accept that Slayers are superior. Nonetheless, everyone should be recognized, and most certainly be heard out before rubbed off.. Yet, the slayer has the choice of which proposed theory they want to choose: Their's or someone else's.

    (I would say the case with the Potentials is an exception, however (regarding Faith completely ignoring any of Kennedy's ideas.) Kennedy and the laundry list of potentials did not know what they were getting into and had no one bit of experience. It should also be noted that by my standards "experience" does not include training. I am talking about fighting and understand vampires and their destinies. Therefore, this whole paragraph applies only to those who have the experience to make an opposing theory or even question the Slayer. I may have stated earlier in the other thread that Potentials should have the ability to question. Now thinking hard on this entire paragraph, potentials just do not have the right to question the slayer. This is should be left for the ones who have experience (In Buffy's case: The scoobies and Wood and of course other Slayers). If everyone agrees on a Slayer's decision.. then an inexperienced person's (Potentials) worry ultimately becomes invalid. )

    Buffy The Vampire Slayer has never been about a dictatorship. Others with experience are perfectly allowed to question a Slayer's motives and offer their opinions if disagreeing. However, as I've said before, The Slayer is in charge. If we take the concept of the Slayer not having the final say on something, it completely washes away the significance of them being chosen. It is important for some people to understand that there is more to a slayer than a person who has super strengths and abilities. They are unique. Their role in the world has a purpose and is predetermined. They are born with the presets to protect and save the world. Thus if others' opinions succeed over a Slayer's, it tip the scale and completely offsets the balance of things.
    How can we even assume that our opinions are more valid than a slayers? That we should be considered over them? If a mother has a debate with her children, a good mother will listen to and try to understand their points of view. However, if she doesn't agree.. What happens? Who automatically decides to this decision? The mother. Motherhood is not a dictatorship, neither is Slayerhood. Both just having the advanced understanding and determination puts them above everyone else. Of course maturity applies to both situations as well. I can understand an exception if the Slayer or mother is am early stage. After years of practice and experience (for a mother a lot less obviously) though.. this is when society must follow by the slayer's rules.

    So.. let's say one disagrees with my opinion. By disagreeing with me, I also feel as if you're disagreeing with the concept of the show. The uniqueness of a slayer, the idea of there being only two slayers in the World, and the notion that they set themselves apart from society regardless whether they wanted it or not.

    This is even more to an extent, but I'd also add that Slayers, as hard as it is to swallow, have a greater margin for error. The reason for this is quite simple: Everyone will always be given a second chance. How a person uses this second chance to their advantage is determined by.. well what they do. With Slayers.. they are given power, strength, and tons of abilities that no other people have to their extent. Thus, it's almost as if telling a person to repaint the house that they destoyed while the job's already half done.
    To apply this to the show, look at Faith.. she's killed numerous people and has made tons of wrong decisions.. yet everyone is willing to accept her as their leader in "Empty Places." I know I wouldn't want a person who killed and tortured people as my leader even if they are good now.. However.. in this case it is a "Slayer."

    To conclude, Slayers will always be on a higher scale than everyone else, no matter if it's cruel or if someone wants it a different way.


    As Buffy once stated to a demon, "I'm the slayer. And you're on my turf."
    Last edited by Nostalgia; 23-06-07, 11:10 AM.
    sigpic

    -Sig by BlasterBoy-

  • #2
    The notion of wether or not a slayer is better than the people around her is a complicated one. Seemingly the 'gifts' a slayer possess have lasting negative attributes to that slayer on a personal and societal level. I'll try and address some parts of your question the best I can whilst trying to remain brief as I don't have much time.

    A slayer is given enhanced abilities that physically place them above most humans and other supernatural beings. Physical superiority can have just as much of a lasting impression on the person as a mental one; much of the slayer's world is physical. As a result a slayer grows a superiority complex, Buffy admits to this in Conversations With Dead People and Faith demonstrates such a complex in Consequences. Now I don't believe this is entirely the slayer's fault, with such enhanced abilities it is evidently going to be extremely hard for any one not to feel superior. I'd go as far as saying that I view a good slayer, a righteous slayer as superior based on these qualities. I would never judge Buffy for openly admitting she feels superior but would Faith because of one major factor; Buffy doesn't accept this. Buffy feels terrible that she feels superior to everyone else, so much so that she has an inferiority complex about her own superiority complex. Buffy doesn't want to feel this way but it is a feeling that inevitably was going to happen. As she states, 'they haven't been what I've been through, they aren't the slayer. I am.' However, Faith completely accepted this superiority complex, she embraced it and loved the fact that she was better or more superior than the people around her. This acceptance of such a feeling is key to establishing wether or not a slayer is right or wrong for feeling this way.

    A slayer's jurisdiction is also a debatable topic. As a slayer she is thrust into this world of vampires and demons, a world where she is told she is chosen to combat this darkness. Buffy was an anomaly as a slayer, she had a support growth that largely established there own footing in the supernatural world, some where vampires or demons always grounded in that mythology and others found their place in that society, for instance Willow with her magics. Seemingly this complicated Buffy's role more so than other slayers. A slayer was supposed to have one real relationship; with her Watcher. She was supposed to be removed from society and hence things inevitably would be a lot more black and white for other slayers. Buffy has mingled with the very creatures she was supposed to rid the earth of and has dealt with situations other slayers were unlikely to ever face. These situations cause conflict, as for example when she has to determine wether or not Angelus should die, wether or not she should stake Spike or wether or not Anya had to die in Selfless. For any other slayer it would be very simple, demon kills twelve people, demon dies; for Buffy it was anything but. Does this change the slayer's jurisdiction or does it just make Buffy's role a hell of a lot harder; I choose the latter. Buffy still is first and foremost the slayer. The slayer's specific role is to combat "the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness" regardless of wether they be vampire, demon, human or witch. Buffy is completely right when she states I am the law because she is, wether people like it or not. Our own laws are based on a set of morals that society values, Buffy is the law in the supernatural world and hence her law, her practices, are based entirely on her own moral values. Buffy believes that humans who can be dealt with by human law don't fall under her jurisdiction, she believes those who can operate supernaturally above the confines of human laws fall under her jurisdiction. We can call her actions hypercritical or unjust but in the end she is the law; she was thrust into that world, a world that is dependant on her to keep that balance.

    I want to make draw connections between both themes now- Buffy's superiority as the slayer and her role as the law in the supernatural world. As I said earlier, Buffy doesn't accept the fact that she is superior, she recognises this is how she feels but doesn't support it. However, this acceptance is always going to be there, she can't get out of this world or the choices she has to make; the supernatural world falls under her jurisdiction wether she likes it or not. Buffy is right to forever feel like she shouldn't accept that she is superior but to act according to her duties. She will forever feel judgement by her peers for the level of responsibility that has been handed to her as the slayer, Anya judges her for believing she is better than everyone else. However, Buffy never chose to be like this, she didn't earn it like Anya states but it was handed to her. Buffy was handed this superiority complex, this duty to be the law and it is ridiculous to judge Buffy based on something she herself stated she had no control over.

    I've really just touched upon ideas and they probably aren't as coherent as they should be however I don't really have enough time to go deeper into my ideas now.

    ~ Banner by Nina ~

    Comment


    • #3
      Slayers are superior in terms of physical ability and their 'sixth sense', however that does not, by any means, automatically make slayers qualified to be leaders. The power they receive is of a very different nature to those of political and military leaders. If you look at Faith, for example, she makes bad call after bad call and needed all the help she could get just to live past Sanctuary. If Buffy hadn't intervened, then Faith would have cost them the war against the First.

      Leadership is a role that Buffy took away from her watcher, who would traditionally be the one in charge. She was able to do this for numerous reasons, the main two being that she was needed to fight the war against evil and that most of the time her decision making was fairly good. However, she was also far from perfect. She screwed up in any number of ways that showed she was still, largely, human. Her instincts may have helped her spot things that others missed, but they didn't automatically make her a qualified leader. Faith could never have taken the leadership role in the way Buffy did. The only reason she managed it in season 7 was that Buffy had set the status quo and Faith simply took her role temporarily.

      If you think about Kendra, not only wouldn't she have taken charge of things if she'd been in Buffy's place, she would have been completely incapable of performing the task. Nostalgia, if you look at the personalities of the three slayers that feature in the TV series for any significant length of time (I'm not counting the new ones in Chosen) it's clear that only one of them made a competent leader and basing all your ideas on your individual interpretation of the message behind the show results in a gross oversimplification of the issues.

      Comment


      • #4
        Personalities and human behavior make a huge difference.. if one experiences a bad past and is easy to succumb to evil simply because she's never had a dad in her life or one person giving her credit, then it will affect in terms of how their leadership skills will work.

        However, this is just one case. Both Buffy and Kendra knew how to display leadership skills. It's in my opinion just one more part of the Slayer superiority.
        sigpic

        -Sig by BlasterBoy-

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
          Personalities and human behavior make a huge difference.. if one experiences a bad past and is easy to succumb to evil simply because she's never had a dad in her life or one person giving her credit, then it will affect in terms of how their leadership skills will work.

          However, this is just one case. Both Buffy and Kendra knew how to display leadership skills. It's in my opinion just one more part of the Slayer superiority.
          Sorry, what??? When did Kendra display any sign of leadership skills? She was barely capable of taking the initiative in a situation yet alone giving orders.

          Let's try this from another angle. Did the potentials opinion suddenly become worth much more after they were called? Some of the girls shown were as young as twelve. Do you really think that their opinions would suddenly outweigh those of their parents for any given situation? Some situations possibly, depending on how well developed their sixth sense was, but in general? Buffy was an exception who made a good leader in most of the situations she was in because it was her. In other situations, or if it was someone else that wouldn't have been true. If this wasn't the case then the traditions that grew up in the council wouldn't have lasted five minutes.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't think the seat of leadership has necessarily anything to do with being the Slayer, or the Watcher. Instead, the best combination of experience and will has always risen to the top of the Buffyverse.

            Buffy, and later Faith, weren't the leaders *because* they were Slayers. They were leaders because their experience lent them credibility, and because they believed that they were the leader in a way that projected to others. Call it charisma, call it gravitas, they had it. And, yes, the strength to impose one's will as leader is a factor, but it's not definitive.

            Take, for instance, "The Weight of the World". When Buffy went catatonic, Willow became leader. She demonstrated this very directly by forcing Xander and Spike apart, but she was the leader nonetheless. A few years earlier, she became the de facto leader in "Becoming", despite being in a hospital bed. Her experience, and her belief that it was her time, made it happen and made it believable.

            Xander ostensibly took that stage in the summer after "Becoming", and we saw instances of that type of natural authority in "Dirty Girls" and elsewhere. And it is rightfully so, for even he is more qualified to lead than is Kennedy. Not only did she never have any combination of experience and strength to qualify herself, she didn't *really* believe she should be in charge or she wouldn't have always been insipidly insisting she get her turn to speak. People would have waited to hear what she had to say. That's just how that leadership thing happens.
            sigpic
            Banner by LRae12

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally Posted by KingofCretins
              Take, for instance, "The Weight of the World". When Buffy went catatonic, Willow became leader. She demonstrated this very directly by forcing Xander and Spike apart, but she was the leader nonetheless. A few years earlier, she became the de facto leader in "Becoming", despite being in a hospital bed. Her experience, and her belief that it was her time, made it happen and made it believable
              This isn't my point though. In both of these situations a person other than a slayer is stepping up to the plate while a slayer is either not available or under enough pressure that she needed extra help.

              Sorry, what??? When did Kendra display any sign of leadership skills? She was barely capable of taking the initiative in a situation yet alone giving orders.
              Kendra displayed leadership skills when she had shown Buffy that she was willing to eliminate any type of inhabitions such as friends and love in order to focus on the mission. Kendra knew the main goal and stepped up and did her job the best to her ability.

              Someone convince that a slayer is not chosen with the power of leadership skills and authority. You're telling me that in a situation where two ways to take out a solution, one from the slayer the other from a civilian, the Slayer does not have the power to choose which strategy to take?

              In my opinion the Slayer has complete power over any type of situation regarding monsters, demons or a threat to their world. It is their job. You can't steal someone's job from them.
              Last edited by Nostalgia; 23-06-07, 12:44 PM.
              sigpic

              -Sig by BlasterBoy-

              Comment


              • #8
                It's obvious the fact that Slayers have a numerous amount of survival skills that put them at a higher pedastal than the average human. This is demonstrated obviously by Buffy and Faith when it is evident that they succeed others in certain qualities that have already been mentioned. Therefore it is in my opinion that because of this Slayers will and should have the mic in their hand at all times. Meaning that humans and any other sort of creatures simply cannot have the rule of thumb when it comes to strategizing. Slayers automatically are given the gain when it comes to a decision.. simply because well: They're slayers. Slayers are mean't to lead.. are are mean't to offer their insight and plan for a situation because it is their job. No other person's opinion should come before their's. Before anyone else is recognized, a slayer should be the first on the list. The problem here lies. Some people aren't able to accept that Slayers are superior. Nonetheless, everyone should be recognized, and most certainly be heard out before rubbed off.. Yet, the slayer has the choice of which proposed theory they want to choose: Their's or someone else's.
                And this is where things get murky. What happens when the Slayer starts to do things that are consistently detrimental to the rest of the people involved? What about Empty Places? The Slayer is not infallible. They must be held accountable for their actions, ideas, words just as any other human, otherwise they will begin to become apathetic about the rest of the world. Being determines consciousness - if you don't hold the Slayer accountable, they'll not be accountable; we see this in "Consequences" as Buffy talks to Faith. I wholeheartedly agree with her here. The Slayers are not the law; the law is in the hands of everybody who understands the world. When we talk about the supernatural, Buffy and Faith are not the sole enforcers - Xander, Willow, Anya, Tara, Spike, and Giles help as well, and therefore they are a part of the law. Just because some random people created a prophecy, does not mean humanity has to follow it. We create our own destinies, our own lives; and if that means not holding the Slayer above all criticism and accountability, so be it.

                Buffy The Vampire Slayer has never been about a dictatorship. Others with experience are perfectly allowed to question a Slayer's motives and offer their opinions if disagreeing. However, as I've said before, The Slayer is in charge. If we take the concept of the Slayer not having the final say on something, it completely washes away the significance of them being chosen. It is important for some people to understand that there is more to a slayer than a person who has super strengths and abilities. They are unique. Their role in the world has a purpose and is predetermined. They are born with the presets to protect and save the world. Thus if others' opinions succeed over a Slayer's, it tip the scale and completely offsets the balance of things.
                Maybe we "wash away the significance" of a Slayer if we take them off their high horse, but the only reason Slayers were intended to be "the law" in the first place is because no one else knew about the vampires, demons, and forces of darkness. Once everyone has the knowledge, then the Slayer's opinion is no more informed than anyone else's. Their only advantage is in strength, which still somewhat retains some sort of significance of their being chosen. Once everyone knows, they have an equal say in the decision process - or, yes, it is a dictatorship.

                Re: the "balance of things" - Please, be more specific. How is there some sort of "sacred balance" that must be kept or the world will end? Are humans not really "supposed" to be involved in making decisions that concern them? If the defense of the human world becomes more efficient when more people are involved in the decision making process, and there is a consensus rather than "Slayer has the last say," who even cares about the "balance of things"?

                How can we even assume that our opinions are more valid than a slayers? That we should be considered over them? If a mother has a debate with her children, a good mother will listen to and try to understand their points of view. However, if she doesn't agree.. What happens? Who automatically decides to this decision? The mother. Motherhood is not a dictatorship, neither is Slayerhood. Both just having the advanced understanding and determination puts them above everyone else. Of course maturity applies to both situations as well. I can understand an exception if the Slayer or mother is am early stage. After years of practice and experience (for a mother a lot less obviously) though.. this is when society must follow by the slayer's rules.
                This is another thing I hate as well. Parents like the one you are outlining assume their interests take all, simply because they're larger, stronger, and older than their children. They don't take time to explain to their children why their ideas are incorrect. They don't listen to their children, even when they do something like refuse to go to school, or something incredibly stupid, like try to run across a busy street. It's just "you can't do that, because I say so." Maybe the child has a reasonable complaint, but the parents don't stop to explain why what the child is saying will hurt them in the long run. They don't ever say, "You have to go to school because otherwise the government will punish our family and force you to go." Maybe the kid doesn't even learn anything at school because it's incredibly boring, or the kid is very bright...but no, it's "My word goes, because I'm bigger."

                One could even say the mother metaphor is completely invalid because the potentials and Scoobies are not children. The Scoobies know just as much about the situation as Buffy does, and the potentials have some sort of knowledge about the nature of vampires.
                So.. let's say one disagrees with my opinion. By disagreeing with me, I also feel as if you're disagreeing with the concept of the show. The uniqueness of a slayer, the idea of there being only two slayers in the World, and the notion that they set themselves apart from society regardless whether they wanted it or not.
                No, I think the concept of the show is to take this "superhero idea", the little blond girl who always gets killed, and the chosen one, the entire horror/action genre and turn it on its head. To defy the rules set down by the same old cliched movies about how the superheroes are always right. The best examples of this are in Season 3, when Buffy tells Faith that they're not the rulers of humanity, in Season 5 when Buffy defies her "destiny," her source and dies for her sister rather than sacrificing her. She is struggling with the whole "alone" concept throughout the season, and realizes that she doesn't have to be alone; she doesn't have to sacrifice the ones she loves. Again, in "Chosen," we take the "great leader/chosen one" concept and completely destroy it with the scythe. Now, the fate of the world is in the hands of the people, people all over the world, not some lone irritated superhero. Ironically, this is why I like Buffy so much in the first six seasons. Most of the time she doesn't shun her friends, her helpers, the ones who save her time and time again. She reconciles her Slayer duties with the world she's trying to protect.

                Giles: "Buffy, maintaining a normal social life as a Slayer...is problematic at best."

                Buffy: "This is the 90s. The 1990s, in point of fact, and I can do both."

                EDIT: Just wanted to make things a bit clearer. If there were an impending apocalypse, I wouldn't mind the Buffy's word going as she's faced quite a lot of apocalypses. This still doesn't make her immune from criticism, though, and she'd still have to explain why her tactics would be best. But in the end, with an apocalypse at hand, I'd accept her word just on the number of apocalypses she's faced, and her track record (undefeated - the world's still here, isn't it?).
                Last edited by redrevo; 23-06-07, 02:53 PM. Reason: apocalypse case
                Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
                Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ineresting thread...

                  O.k first of all are slayers different from the rest of mankind? Yes of course they are They have those extra physical attributes mentioned already (although i think the slayer sense is debatable). Does this automatically give them a right to lead others? No.

                  Slayers have a gig, a mission in life if you like. That mission is to fight the forces of darkness and it is one that is given to them alone. Why then should these lone warriors be given any super leadership powers? Also the staus quo until a certain very wilful slayer came along was for each slayer to have a watcher, someone to guide her steps to direct her force, in other words to lead her.

                  The reason buffy get's to have a leadership role in season 7 is directly because of her experience in the role. It is this experience that grant's her the right to lead the potentials not her super strength. It also seems to me that bufy does struggle to come to terms with her leadership role that it sits a little uncomfortably with her.

                  But given that Buffy because of her seven years experience fighting evil deserved to have a leadership role here soes it then follow that everyone should show blind obedience to her? again I say no. If you think that someone has just made a decision that might end up with you dying that night then they should have the right to speak up. If everyone feels that way then maybe it's time to rethink things a little.

                  Kendra displayed leadership skills when she had shown Buffy that she was willing to eliminate any type of inhabitions such as friends and love in order to focus on the mission. Kendra knew the main goal and stepped up and did her job the best to her ability.
                  That's a big sacrifice sure but it's not leadership. Kendra isn't leading buffy anywhere nor is she showing that she has the tactical awareness and inteligence to lead anyone anywhere. In her unswerving obedience of her watcher an inflexibilty to her role she's showing she's a follower not a leader.

                  To finish, a point from the show that demonstrates why slayers don't have the god given right to lead.

                  Cordelia: I don't get it. Buffy's the Slayer - shouldn't she have...
                  Xander: What, a license to kill?
                  Willow: Well, not for fun. But she's like this Superman. Shouldn't there be different rules for her?
                  Cordelia: Sure, in a fascist society.
                  Willow: Right! Why can't we have one of those?
                  JUST ENOUGH KILL

                  sigpic
                  Banner by Ciderdrinker

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
                    This isn't my point though. In both of these situations a person other than a slayer is stepping up to the plate while a slayer is either not available or under enough pressure that she needed extra help.
                    The point others are trying to make is that being a slayer doesn't automatically make you a good leader they are simply in a position where people automatically turn to them for leadership because of their role. The potentials in season seven automatically turned to Faith for leadership based solely on the fact she was a slayer, even Faith says she doesn't know if she can lead at this point. The potentials never once considered turning to Willow, Giles or Xander for leadership when they would have been far better choices. A slayer may be thrust into the leadership position but that doesn't automatically make them a good leader based solely on the fact of their title.

                    Kendra displayed leadership skills when she had shown Buffy that she was willing to eliminate any type of inhabitions such as friends and love in order to focus on the mission. Kendra knew the main goal and stepped up and did her job the best to her ability.
                    How was this in anyway showing leadership skills? That wasn't showing leadership, especially when she made it clear she didn't have any love in her life because her watcher prohibited her from talking to boys. Nor does stepping up to the job and being the slayer automatically make Kendra a good leader, from what we know the only other person she had in her life was her watcher and stated she followed his orders, who exactly was she leading?

                    Someone convince that a slayer is not chosen with the power of leadership skills and authority. You're telling me that in a situation where two ways to take out a solution, one from the slayer the other from a civilian, the Slayer does not have the power to choose which strategy to take?
                    A slayer has authority because of her position, in the end I agree with Buffy's statment that she is the law. However, in society a lot of the time we have authoritians who make lawful decisions that aren't just or beneficial to people under their power, because of their position they have this ability to do so but it doesn't automatically mean they are a good leader. When Buffy was chosen as the slayer she wasn't given leadership abilities, that came from something within her all along. All being the slayer did was thrust her into that situation where she was often forced to lead.

                    In my opinion the Slayer has complete power over any type of situation regarding monsters, demons or a threat to their world. It is their job. You can't steal someone's job from them.
                    Well actually you can steal someone's job from them, many people get fired for others who are more qualified to do their job. Whilst I don't support the Scoobies for this they did however kick Buffy out of her leadership position in Empty Places because they didn't want her to lead them.

                    Someone brought up a very good point before, you have said it yourself in another thread that Kennedy lacked any leadership qualities. When she was made a slayer in Chosen did she suddenly have the ability to lead people? You said it yourself that Kennedy needed to learn and grow before she could lead, so regardless of wether Kennedy was slayer or not she still needed to learn and grow before she could be a good leader; regardless of the fact she was now a slayer.

                    ~ Banner by Nina ~

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
                      Kendra displayed leadership skills when she had shown Buffy that she was willing to eliminate any type of inhabitions such as friends and love in order to focus on the mission. Kendra knew the main goal and stepped up and did her job the best to her ability.
                      That could be an attempt at leadership by example, but it doesn't show that she can perform any of the roles required of a leader.

                      Someone convince that a slayer is not chosen with the power of leadership skills and authority. You're telling me that in a situation where two ways to take out a solution, one from the slayer the other from a civilian, the Slayer does not have the power to choose which strategy to take?

                      In my opinion the Slayer has complete power over any type of situation regarding monsters, demons or a threat to their world. It is their job. You can't steal someone's job from them.
                      The ability to decide what you do and the ability to convince others to support you or follow you are two different things.

                      Let's be clear on this. Leadership requires the ability to make decisions and convince others to follow them. Ideally you would also be able to get others to support those decisions. If you can't do either of the first two, you aren't a leader.

                      Concerning Kennedy, the potentials, for whatever reason, respected her enough to follow her instructions during training sessions, and in End of Days, with Faith unconscious Kennedy is able to take charge and organise them.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Concerning Kennedy, the potentials, for whatever reason, respected her enough to follow her instructions during training sessions, and in End of Days, with Faith unconscious Kennedy is able to take charge and organise them.
                        I didn't get the impression that there was even one Potential in "Get It Done" who was following Kennedy's instruction other than that they must have been told to do so off-screen by Buffy or a Scooby. Disappointing Kennedy sure didn't do anything to motivate Chloe, just avoiding a completely loathesome browbeating.

                        Incidentally, it is pretty unlikely that Kennedy was qualified to train a large group in any martial form whatsoever. She was 19 years old. How many masters are 19 years old?

                        Kennedy has the instinct to lead, I'll give her that. Although her instinct was to try to engage the Turok-han instead of run, which was, well, dumb. And, really, it comes back to the question of whether anybody listens to Kennedy because they think Kennedy is qualified to lead them, or because Kennedy has created the illusion of sanction by the people who *are* qualified to lead them?
                        sigpic
                        Banner by LRae12

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                          I didn't get the impression that there was even one Potential in "Get It Done" who was following Kennedy's instruction other than that they must have been told to do so off-screen by Buffy or a Scooby. Disappointing Kennedy sure didn't do anything to motivate Chloe, just avoiding a completely loathesome browbeating. Kennedy has the instinct to lead, I'll give her that. Although her instinct was to try to engage the Turok-han instead of run, which was, well, dumb. And, really, it comes back to the question of whether anybody listens to Kennedy because they think Kennedy is qualified to lead them, or because Kennedy has created the illusion of sanction by the people who *are* qualified to lead them?
                          The answer to that question, along with your opinion of events in Get It Done, is down to personal bias rather than anything in the show. Even you admitted that she does have some potential for leadership, even if you don't think its much.

                          Besides, Faith didn't have any real talent for leadership and she still got put in charge. She got appointed on the basis that she was the Slayer, which we agree is really not a sound basis for choosing a leader.
                          Last edited by Anon; 23-06-07, 06:17 PM. Reason: Drifting off topic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Leadership does have certain amount of equal experience vs. confidence in one's experience - the *I know what I'm talking about* factor.

                            I know many people who have years and years of experience but simply do not have the confidence in their abilities to step forward in a leadership role - which is fine - because there eventually will be people who are able to step into this role.

                            And sometimes all it takes is someone willing to place their confidence in that person's experiences for them to assume the role.

                            Faith has the experience but she doesn't seem to have the confidence in her experiences - she's not sure she knows what she's talking about at times. However, when she stepped up in Angel she was confident in front of Angelus to a sort. And I do think it made a difference that Faith's Watcher was not as involved in her life as Buffy and Kendra's had been. She had no one to encourage or discourage her successes or mistakes and so no one to *shape* her confidence.

                            Kennedy on the other hand seems to have the *I know* factor up front but no experience to put behind it. That's good for rallying the troops but you probably won't find them following her into battle until someone else places confidence in her experiences.

                            There are people who naturally display abilities for leadership. Using this confidence if they are shaped correctly - encouragment/discouragement they can earn the experience it takes to make them great leaders.

                            But there are also people who quietly come into leadership. They have performed time after time with good results and learned from their mistakes. It may be that someone else has to recognize the leadership qualities they have.

                            The problem we now face is that we have a whole slue of Slayers! Not just the two. Everyone of them with the abilities to Slay Vampires, Demons, and Fight Evil. Someone has to shape and mold them.

                            It raises a question to me - whether some of the Slayers died because they were not such great leaders? Just thinking...
                            -TP<3
                            "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                            - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

                            Spuffy Videos!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Faith wasn't in charge because she was a Slayer. Why would that make Giles defer to her? Or Willow, who's already beaten down a Slayer? Or Xander, who she tried to kill? She was in charge because she was willing to be in charge and she had credibility. Everyone there knew she was a fighter, knew she'd been through more serious crap than most of the rest (especially if we assume Willow briefed them on what happened in L.A.). The Potentials deferred to her precisely because she had reached out to them already.

                              In fact, there was only one person who didn't defer to Faith out of respect -- Kennedy, who, again, thought she should be in charge.

                              Being the Slayer is not the "why" of Buffy or Faith ever being in charge. Their power is not their command. Buffy was still "in charge" in "Earshot", she was still essentially in charge in "Killed By Death" (or Xander, when needed).

                              To go with Poet's example, Buffy and Faith, as well as Giles, Xander, Willow, and Spike, are all the authentic leaders at the house in Season 7 because they can all say "I know because I've seen it and done it". Kennedy can only say "I know because I heard it from others".

                              There is nothing in the episode at all that explains *why* or *how* Kennedy got put in charge of that horribly inefficient training session. But there's a LOT more subtextual basis to think it's because some of the real authority in the house said so and not because Kennedy just inspired them to do it. The only thing Kennedy was good at in that scene was calling another Potential a maggot (gleefully!) and questioning Buffy on who she has as a guest in HER house.
                              sigpic
                              Banner by LRae12

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Sorry if I'm stepping on anyone's point but here's some of my views.

                                Ok my thoughts on this is that the Slayers origin comes from subjugation, this means that anything regarding the meaning of being a Slayer is self defined. It's up the Slayer to regard it as their job, or indeed as part of their identity., this includes self worth, leadership etc.

                                Also although it's allowed , I wouldn't necessarily use the mission statement of the show (of course there is more than one of those) to argue whether I believe something is right or wrong. While I wouldn't agree with autocracy in it's extreme measure but I wouldn't use the "Whedon thinks it so it must be right" line.

                                Like I said before, the significance of being chosen doesn't give the Slayer the right of having the final say as the origin of this power has roots in patriarchal dominance which undermines the idea of the empowerment of the Slayer which I understood to really start with Buffy anyway. Buffy's leadership comes from her as a person not as a slayer in my view.

                                Kendra seemed more like a product of the establishment than anything else. Her reply to Buffy's reasoning wasn't her own reasoning but it was what was taught by the establishment, procedure. Kendra if you pardon the pun is still thinking like a tool rather than a leader.

                                All this said, I believe although Buffy has shown strength and impressive leadership (which come from her as person in the role rather than her preternatural abilities) she has had her share of mistakes and luck has sometimes been on her side. The interesting thing about leadership is that sometimes time doesn't let you become ready. Buffy received her leadership role relatively early and with little experience (compared others in such roles of leadership in the world) and she was a teenage girl with little life experience with arguably more responsibility than anyone in the world. Was Buffy ready? I'm not sure but she stepped up. Did Buffy excel? I think so. Was Buffy lucky at times? I believe so. This is one of the reasons I wasn't too hard on Faith in Season 4/7. (4 refers to Angel) because she had elements of self doubt but she showed one quality all leaders should show in my opinion: a willingness to lead at the very least.

                                My memory of Kennedy is always sketchy as I never seem to remember or care about her existence (it's not personal to her I just feel that way, I don't dislike her). Could Kennedy lead? From what I remember she at least had the willingness. Would she have been rash and made mistakes? I think so but then so have Buffy and Angel and I don't think either of them are bad leaders. Does she have the potential to lead? I can't remember that much but perhaps the question is that is she the most qualified to lead? Based upon her lack of experience I'd agree with those who say no, but that doesn't mean she'll never make a good a leader if the circumstances present themselves.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  My memory of Kennedy is always sketchy as I never seem to remember or care about her existence (it's not personal to her I just feel that way, I don't dislike her). Could Kennedy lead? From what I remember she at least had the willingness. Would she have been rash and made mistakes? I think so but then so have Buffy and Angel and I don't think either of them are bad leaders. Does she have the potential to lead? I can't remember that much but perhaps the question is that is she the most qualified to lead? Based upon her lack of experience I'd agree with those who say no, but that doesn't mean she'll never make a good a leader if the circumstances present themselves.
                                  Kennedy won't ever be a good leader if she has never learned how to follow. I don't think she even started to "get it" until Buffy showed up to save them in "End of Days".

                                  From what we know now,
                                  Spoiler:
                                  she apparently was not put in charge of one of the Slayer teams. We don't have a lot of specifics about that, but considering that only a total of eight Slayers made it out of Sunnydale, including Buffy and Faith, it's probably not an accident that she doesn't appear to be in a leadership role.
                                  sigpic
                                  Banner by LRae12

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Anon View Post
                                    Concerning Kennedy, the potentials, for whatever reason, respected her enough to follow her instructions during training sessions, and in End of Days, with Faith unconscious Kennedy is able to take charge and organise them.
                                    I wouldn't automatically assume that the others respected her enough to follow her instructions, as KoC points out Kennedy would have evidently been put in that position by someone in charge of her. Kennedy was the only potential who appeared to believe she should be in charge and hence yelling out orders and having them followed doesn't mean that the other potentials respected her, the simply did things they chose to do.

                                    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                    Faith wasn't in charge because she was a Slayer. Why would that make Giles defer to her? Or Willow, who's already beaten down a Slayer? Or Xander, who she tried to kill? She was in charge because she was willing to be in charge and she had credibility. Everyone there knew she was a fighter, knew she'd been through more serious crap than most of the rest (especially if we assume Willow briefed them on what happened in L.A.). The Potentials deferred to her precisely because she had reached out to them already.
                                    Well the group turned to Faith to lead them because she was a slayer too, seemingly Faith was thrust in the leadership position based on her title, regardless of wether she was actually capable of leading or not. No one suggested Willow, Xander or Giles leading them because they weren't a slayer.

                                    Being the Slayer is not the "why" of Buffy or Faith ever being in charge. Their power is not their command. Buffy was still "in charge" in "Earshot", she was still essentially in charge in "Killed By Death" (or Xander, when needed).
                                    I think that Buffy and Faith are placed in a leadership position because of their title, holding that position and making people repsect and follow you is something that requires more than being the slayer though. The majority of the time Buffy's peers turned to her based on the fact she was a slayer, but it was her own personal skills of leadership that kept them turning to her.

                                    To go with Poet's example, Buffy and Faith, as well as Giles, Xander, Willow, and Spike, are all the authentic leaders at the house in Season 7 because they can all say "I know because I've seen it and done it". Kennedy can only say "I know because I heard it from others".
                                    Very true. Which is why Nostalgia's idea doesn't really make a great deal of sense, Kennedy was made a slayer but when the powers handed out super strength and speed to her they didn't hand her that experience. Being the slayer doesn't give you leadership abiltities, it just puts you in a situation where people turn to you to lead.

                                    ~ Banner by Nina ~

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
                                      Faith has the experience but she doesn't seem to have the confidence in her experiences - she's not sure she knows what she's talking about at times. However, when she stepped up in Angel she was confident in front of Angelus to a sort. And I do think it made a difference that Faith's Watcher was not as involved in her life as Buffy and Kendra's had been. She had no one to encourage or discourage her successes or mistakes and so no one to *shape* her confidence.
                                      Well why would she? She had experience, but it didn't help her. She was still a hopelessly incompetent leader both in terms of leading people and making decisions. Was I really the only one who spotted the trap Faith walked into from a mile away?

                                      Faith wasn't in charge because she was a Slayer. Why would that make Giles defer to her? Or Willow, who's already beaten down a Slayer? Or Xander, who she tried to kill? She was in charge because she was willing to be in charge and she had credibility. Everyone there knew she was a fighter, knew she'd been through more serious crap than most of the rest (especially if we assume Willow briefed them on what happened in L.A.). The Potentials deferred to her precisely because she had reached out to them already.
                                      Buffy had created a system where by the Slayer was in charge. That is the only reason Faith was even considered for a leadership role, and it is certainly the only reason she got the job.

                                      In fact, there was only one person who didn't defer to Faith out of respect -- Kennedy, who, again, thought she should be in charge.
                                      She challenged the status quo. Smart girl. The entire system that worked under Buffy worked because it was under Buffy. With her gone, it should have changed, but it was so deeply entrenched that no one else did anything.

                                      There is nothing in the episode at all that explains *why* or *how* Kennedy got put in charge of that horribly inefficient training session. But there's a LOT more subtextual basis to think it's because some of the real authority in the house said so and not because Kennedy just inspired them to do it. The only thing Kennedy was good at in that scene was calling another Potential a maggot (gleefully!) and questioning Buffy on who she has as a guest in HER house.
                                      I can find plenty of reasons of my own for assuming its more than that. Most of it is you reading in what you want to see. Besides, what ever subtext there was for the trianing session, there is none for 'End Of Days'. One thing I notice about Kennedy bashers is that time after time they insist on reading thing she says and does in the worst possible way. Almost as if many of them had decided to hate her first and look for reasons second.
                                      Last edited by Anon; 24-06-07, 07:24 AM.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Anon View Post
                                        Buffy had created a system where by the Slayer was in charge. That is the only reason Faith was even considered for a leadership role, and it is certainly the only reason she got the job.
                                        I agree. It is actually stated in Empty Places that Faith should have a turn in charge based on the fact that she is a slayer. The fact none of the Scoobies saw the bad in this is beyond me, but then I disagree with them kicking Buffy out as well. :confused2:

                                        She challenged the status quo. Smart girl. The entire system that worked under Buffy worked because it was under Buffy. With her gone, it should have changed, but it was so deeply entrenched that no one else did anything.
                                        Well no not really. I think really challenging the status quo would be offering for Willow, Xander or Giles to be put in charge. Kennedy believed she deserved to be in charge because she was a Potential slayer which really isn't far off from an actual slayer. Thinking outside of the box would be putting someone in charge based on their experience and ability to lead, not by their title.

                                        No. There is very little 'subtext' to speak of. Most of it is you reading in what you want to see. One thing I notice about Kennedy bashers is that time after time they insist on reading thing she says and does in the worst possible way. Almost as if many of them had decided to hate her first and look for reasons second.
                                        There is a reason there are so many Kennedy bashers and that is because the things she does and says are stupid

                                        I think it is safe to assume Kennedy was given that responsibility by someone, after all she states she loves "this job" and Buffy smiles weakly at her and nods. Since when did Kennedy have this kind of leadership position on her own when it was made clear Buffy was in charge? One could safely assume she was delegated this power.

                                        ~ Banner by Nina ~

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X