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A vampire with a soul? Oh my god, how lame is that?

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  • A vampire with a soul? Oh my god, how lame is that?

    I noticed how the writers love to 'diss' the other show. Sometimes it's funny (title of this thread, or Cordelia & Wesley mocking the Buffy/Angel relation.). But sometimes it isn't, characters who look very bad on the other show. Buffy in 'Sanctuary' and Angel in 'The Yoko Factor' & 'Chosen'. But especially Ats season 5 was a terrible season for the BtVS characters (surprising because it was the first season where Joss himself was the showrunner.). It's not OOC in the most cases, just some very bad (but known) sides of the characters that are highlighted.

    And I'm curious why they did that. I can understand the funny lines to 'diss' the other series. But the character dissing ... why? Is there something that was going on behind the cameras or do I see ghosts?


  • #2
    I never saw Angel as bad in "Chosen". That appearance was actually what made me decide to watch Angel the Series. I had never liked Angel all that much, and I had heard that Angel and Cordelia hooked up, so I had pretty much decided to never watch those DVDs. But when Angel showed up in Chosen with a personality and a sense of humor, I was like, "I have to see how that happened."

    I never really saw the writers dissing the other show, other than a couple playful jabs. What I found interesting was the differing views that Buffy writers and Angel writers had about certain characters. The disparity between Faith on Angel and Faith on Buffy is enormous, as is the version of Willow on Angel compared to the one on Buffy. I'm sure if more characters had crossed over there would be more examples.

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    • #3
      I wouldn't say Buffy was dissed in 'Sanctuary' or Angel in 'The Yoko Factor' myself. I just watched both episodes again last night and think both characters came off naturally and how we'd expect them to act. If Angel was dissed in 'The Yoko Factor' so was Riley, as both behaved as badly as eachother.

      I also think it was an important message to send out in 'Sanctuary' as well. This is Angel's show now and he calls the shots, not Buffy. It was great they showed that. I don't think it was about dissing Buffy but just showing that Angel isn't under her shadow.

      I loved both of their crossover appearences myself, I forgot how good the Buffy/Angel/Faith and Buffy/Angel scenes were in 'Sanctuary' until I watched them again last night. And 'The Yoko Factor' redeemed both characters by having them apologise to one another for any mistakes eachother made, it softened their hardened edges.

      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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      • #4
        I rather see that "vampire with a soul is lame" remark as self-irony - Angel was part of the Buffy series for a long time, after all, and originates from there. Moreover, that just Buffy would say so makes it even more comical.

        True, Buffy shows a rather uncontrolled and furious side in "Sanctuary", but that's not surprising after what happened, and for example in "I Will Remember You" she doesn't appear in a bad way.
        And as VM just said, Angel's "misbehaving" in "The Yoko Factor" had quite a bit to do with meeting Riley, and with Riley's behaviour.

        So, I wouldn't say it's purposeful dissing of the other show - a couple of humorous taunts, perhaps, but no real dissing.
        Sin is what I feast upon
        I'm forging my crematorium
        Your tomb is waiting here for you
        Welcome to my ritual

        -Judas Priest, Death

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bloodsucker View Post
          I rather see that "vampire with a soul is lame" remark as self-irony - Angel was part of the Buffy series for a long time, after all, and originates from there. Moreover, that just Buffy would say so makes it even more comical.
          Agreed it pokes fun at Btvs as well as Ats, as well as Angel's character but also very importantly, Buffy and Spike's character. Buffy always found the soul so important, fell in love with Angel because of the soul ect, whereas Spike always mocked him for it. To have it turned around and Buffy call it lame whilst Spike likes the idea and gives himself the title, it's taking a comedic approach at their characters as well as Angel and both shows in general.

          True, Buffy shows a rather uncontrolled and furious side in "Sanctuary", but that's not surprising after what happened, and for example in "I Will Remember You" she doesn't appear in a bad way.
          And as VM just said, Angel's "misbehaving" in "The Yoko Factor" had quite a bit to do with meeting Riley, and with Riley's behaviour.

          So, I wouldn't say it's purposeful dissing of the other show - a couple of humorous taunts, perhaps, but no real dissing.
          I'd actually say all of Angel's appearances in Btvs since s3 have only helped his character. He saved Buffy's life in 'Pangs' he came and apologised to her in 'The Yoko Factor' he came to be by her side after her mother's death in 'Forever' and he saved her life again in 'End of Days/Chosen.' He's pretty much shown to be a very positive, important, nice guy in every episode he appeared in.

          ~ Banner by Nina ~

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          • #6
            Weird how different I see those episodes.


            I think that Angel is stuck in the role of the petty ex-boyfriend who doesn't really want his ex-girlfriend to move on in TYF and in Chosen. Yes he was there to do good, and in both cases you can find reasons to why he is being that extreme (Thinking that Riley slept with Faith, Spike being the 'new' guy after he left her because he was a vampire.) ... but still, Angel is always a bit too petty and it seems like he isn't able to move on (TGIQ does it too ... I know, but that episode is for a reason my most hated episode ever.).

            And I'm one of those people who think that Buffy has not the right to act like she did in 'Sanctuary'. Yes, she had all the right to be angry and to hate Faith. But her behavior towards Angel was way out of line, and she never redeemed it. She never did anything for Angel again, and the next time we saw her work again on Ats; was Damage. Which is another episode were she treats Angel very bad. If I would only watch Ats, I wouldn't understand why Angel wants to see her ever again.

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            • #7
              Hm, can't yet remark on that last paragraph because I've only come as far as Season 3 (catching up rapidly, though, now I have my own DVDs ).

              As for the first, though... I don't really see him as petty. After all, Buffy is the love of his life and he's had a very, very long life, as he says at the beginning of Season 3. And if not for the curse, it would be very likely that they still were together, since the curse was the reason they split up. Moving on under these circumstances seems to be particularly hard for me, especially after having to give her up again in "I Will Remember You".
              Sin is what I feast upon
              I'm forging my crematorium
              Your tomb is waiting here for you
              Welcome to my ritual

              -Judas Priest, Death

              Comment


              • #8
                But Angel did move on himself as well (although, if the name 'Buffy' falls, he seems to forget about that.), and he left her so she could have a real relationship. If that's the case, you should take it like a man. At least, that's my view. And I'm tired that Buffy tells him every time she moved on, and he is acting like a the most annoying ex boyfriend ever. And it's never the other way around.

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                • #9
                  Oh well, Buffy comes flying back straight into his arms when he turns up in Season 7, despite being together with Spike. She's trying to move on, but she doesn't really do it either.
                  And Angel tries too, but he just can't. In my opinion, he does fairly well for his circumstances, though.

                  Annoying ex-boyfriend? Sorry, have to disagree with you there. When he comes to comfort Buffy in "Forever", he is very caring and devoted and not annoying at all.

                  (But here we come to the point where it depends whether we like a character or not, I guess. )
                  Sin is what I feast upon
                  I'm forging my crematorium
                  Your tomb is waiting here for you
                  Welcome to my ritual

                  -Judas Priest, Death

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I love Angel more than any other character on tv. And I agree, in 'Forever' he is great. It's the tone he uses against Buffy in Chosen and his childish way of dealing with Riley. Not that Riley and Spike are acting innocent and grown up. But still ... Angel wanted Buffy to move on and he moved on himself, than be her friend but don't complain about every boyfriend she has and don't make Buffy defend her boyfriend (in the case of Spike, it's understandable ... but Angel's behavior towards and about Riley was out of line.).

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                    • #11
                      I think Angel acted very human in his response.

                      As Bloodsucker states, Buffy and Angel didn't separate because they'd fallen out of love, grown tired of each other or found someone else, it's because of the curse and the fact he was a vampire. That's the whole tragic angle the Buffy/Angel relationship has, here's two people who desperately want to be together, but can't. That's their pitch, so I can totally understand why Angel acts the way he does when meeting Buffy in future encounters.

                      I can't blame Angel really. Yes, he was the one who ended the relationship, yes he states she "deserves someone who'll take her into the light" but that doesn't mean it is easy for him to be faced with that someone. In the end his actions speak louder than his words. I have no problem with him being jealous or slightly immature about the whole thing because at the end of the day he did the most loving and mature thing anyone's capable of doing, in leaving Buffy to have a new life because he couldn't give her a relationship worthy of what she deserves. He can be as petty about her future boyfriends as much as he wants, because at the end of the day he still stayed away and gave her that opportunity which means more than anything else.

                      Buffy isn’t entirely innocent either. Yes she moved on more often but as Bloodsucker states, she happily jumped in Angel’s arms in ‘End of Days’ after getting intimate with Spike, she rushed off as quickly as possible after Angel rings her in ‘Flooded’ and there’s most certainly jealousy there when she asks Faith “you were in Angel’s mind?” before being interrupted in 'Dirty Girls.' Lets not forget she was the one who called him to come and be with her in 'Forever.' So it's not as if Angel's just being bratty, Buffy welcomes him back into her life on multiple occasions.

                      I'm not saying it is right, but I think it's natural Angel's always going to make Buffy feel as if she has to defend her new boyfriends. After all, they parted ways because they had to, not because they wanted to, both realise that as far as they know they would still be together if it hadn't been for the curse, knowing that Angel's always going to view these boyfriends as second best and Buffy's always going to be aware he does to. Again it's very human to feel that way, even if it's not justified. So I'm not saying Angel's right, he probably inadvertently feels this way, but he is written how I'd expect someone in his position to act.
                      Last edited by vampmogs; 16-10-08, 11:26 AM.

                      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                      • #12
                        I guess so ... :')


                        In that case I should change my opnion and only dislike how Ats season 5 dealed with the scoobies. Only that is already a good reason to have season 8. Because I disliked the scoobies a lot after season 5.

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                        • #13
                          Thing is Joss said that Angel was at his best when he was acting 'petty' and I have to say I agree with him. Lord he can bee soooo cute sometimes.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                            I'm not saying it is right, but I think it's natural Angel's always going to make Buffy feel as if she has to defend her new boyfriends. After all, they parted ways because they had to, not because they wanted to, both realise that as far as they know they would still be together if it hadn't been for the curse, knowing that Angel's always going to view these boyfriends as second best and Buffy's always going to be aware he does to. Again it's very human to feel that way, even if it's not justified. So I'm not saying Angel's right, he probably inadvertently feels this way, but he is written how I'd expect someone in his position to act.
                            I totally agree with this. I just recently watched Sanctuary, too and I saw it in a whole new light. Buffy and Angel were written so real in that episode. Their jealousy and bitterness is palpable. Angel just finds out that Buffy has a new boyfriend and most of his reactions to her are stemmed from that news. Buffy just had Faith sleep with her new boyfriend and then finds her in the arms of Angel - that can't go well in Buffy's mind.

                            I can't say how much I loved both those characters in that episode even if their actions were less than admirable. They had real and raw emotions and I think it came across amazingly.

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                            • #15
                              Vamp, thanks for clarifying what I was totally unable to express properly. *is a dunce*

                              That's what I liked about "Sanctuary" - that the writers had no hesitation in showing the characters' very realistic and natural reactions to events. Of course they were not the most "mature" reactions, but they are the ones to be expected, except from someone extremely calm and stoic.

                              Sorry to ignore your Angel-love, Nina.
                              Sin is what I feast upon
                              I'm forging my crematorium
                              Your tomb is waiting here for you
                              Welcome to my ritual

                              -Judas Priest, Death

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Nina View Post
                                In that case I should change my opnion and only dislike how Ats season 5 dealed with the scoobies. Only that is already a good reason to have season 8. Because I disliked the scoobies a lot after season 5.
                                Yeah season 5 was an odd season, I remember a lot of fans hating on the Scoobies during that year, especially after Giles refuses to help Fred in 'Shells' and how Buffy handled the situation in 'Damage.' I understand what Joss was trying to do and in many ways the Scoobie's were justified in their responses but having them continuously being a negative force on Angel, who we see is struggling, and never seeing their POV for ourselves, didn't help them.

                                ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                                • #17
                                  With all the respect for Giles, but this;

                                  " Giles, this is an emergency. No. No, I'm not going— Don't put me on hold." "Yeah, I'm still at Wolfram & Hart . What does that have to do with anything? Yeah. I understand."

                                  Doesn't sound very nice, he didn't even listen why Angel needed help. I understand their hesitation to work with W&H, but they don't even try to see team Angel's point, to find out what is happening. We see the same in 'Damage' where the knowledge that they are working with W&H is enough for the scoobies to treat team Angel without respect.

                                  The same for Andrew in TGIQ, provocating Angel (and Spike) ... just for fun.

                                  And not one of them knew anything about the situation. Not one scooby called Angel, or went to LA to check it out. They just dumped the team. And I'm not sure if I can see their POV at all, they don't trust W&H ... fine, but they trusted it enough to let Dana be catched by Team Angel. They let Angel to the dirty job ... I'm afraid that showing their POV won't help to explain this all, at least not for me. And I never understood why the writers did it like this.

                                  Spike & Cordelia were both against the situation, but saw what was happening and joined the team. They actually checked the situation out and decided that Team Angel deserved their help.
                                  Last edited by Nina; 17-10-08, 12:23 PM.

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                                  • #18
                                    I can most certainly see your point and I do think the Scoobies acted too harshly and coldly to Angel and his team. I agree that the general courtesy of trying to find information out first hard, should have been shown, to a former ally who helped save your asses less than a year earlier.

                                    It's something I really hope season eight addresses. I'm sure if it had been the other way around Angel wouldn't have been thought of too kindly if he'd just dumped Buffy and her friends. Of course I don't believe he ever would, as even after being told she doesn't trust him, even after Giles responds to him like that in the phone call, he rushes off to make sure Buffy's ok the second he learns (or so he believes) she's in danger.

                                    It'd be interesting to hear the writers thoughts on this.

                                    ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                                    • #19
                                      I honestly don't think the writers think too deeply when writing. For whatever reason
                                      it's why we have to fanwank so many things

                                      The shows especially Btvs are sometims insulting to the watchers intelligence I find when we are supposed to side with buffy when she is so clearly wrong. A clear distinction should be made hear between empathy and agreement.

                                      I'm sure how the Scoobies reacted is perfectly reasonable or that's what we are supposed to think. It;s why so many fans me included don't like Buffy as much anymore as well as the rest of the scoobies because they get away with things.

                                      It;s because I think the writers especially joss are prone to fits of laziness and bad communication and silly decisions eg Drugs Metaphor instead of Willow wanting power/control etc.
                                      "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

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                                      • #20
                                        I think more or less, especially in the earlier seasons, the writers were very aware of what messages they were trying to send out, when dealing with emotions and the human condition. I agree that they're quite faulty when it comes to the logistics of the series, but Joss has always admitted that.

                                        I think we would have benefited more from having the Scoobie's perspective in Ats s5 because that always helps, having it said through Andrew really doesn't help when a lot of fans seem to dislike his character, justifying not believe a thing he says, or don't think he's an important enough source.

                                        I don't believe we're always meant to side with Buffy and they're certainly not taking that approach in season eight but I never realised how many people felt this way until the last few months, it's certainly given myself a new perspective to consider.

                                        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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