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**tangent** · 20-06-07, 03:42 PM

I don't love kennedy but i certainly see here as a worthwhile character who has more positive traits than a lot of people allow.

She obviously has to live under the shadow of tara and this coupled with the apparent speed that willow estrablishes her relationship with her after tara's death meanthat she is up against it from the start.

but; she is brave, headstrong, caring and resourceful and has a very strong personality.

I doint think she's in anyway perfect and she is certainly immature and a touch spoiled. She is also hot headed and too opinionated sure, but since when has anyone been perfect. At least she's different from the rest of the rather bland potentials. I think that Kennedy is a character that, if we had more time to get to know would have eventually become a mainstay in the series.

As for the spoiler

Spoiler:

**KingofCretins** · 20-06-07, 03:46 PM

Prior to anything from Season 8, I had always kind of wondered if Kennedy, as a Slayer, had ever directly challenged Buffy to get her way and finally got the 'every square inch' job she needed before she could become more tolerable to me.

I'm not sure I buy into the idea that she is all that caring, unless of course it's Kennedy in need of care. She talked a good game about being supportive of Willow, but then hid from her after actually getting some actual education about Willow's powers.

**ciderdrinker** · 20-06-07, 04:05 PM

I too am not a fan of Kennedy, but I don't hate her as much as others seem to. I agree that she was using her relationship with Willow to give herself some kind of authority within the potentials that she didn't really have, and I do think she threw herself at Willow, when it was obvious that she wasn't entirely ready to start a new relationship.

However, I don't think we had enough time to see the possibilities that could have come out of their relationship, like we did with Tara. I didn't like Tara at all when she first came on the scene and was devastated when Willow chose her over Oz in S4, but in time I saw that Tillow was a good thing and towards the end really thought that Tara was the best person for Willow to be with. I believe that if the show had have continued we would've seen other sides of Kennedy and we may have liked her more.

I do think that the vagueness with which Kennedy is mentioned in S8, may have something to do with the reaction to her and Willow's relationship by the fans, but I wouldn't discount Joss making us care for her in the end!!

**tangent** · 20-06-07, 04:15 PM

I'm not sure I buy into the idea that she is all that caring, unless of course it's Kennedy in need of care. She talked a good game about being supportive of Willow, but then hid from her after actually getting some actual education about Willow's powers.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. I mean having your energy or lifeforce or whatever sucked out of you by someone your in a relationship with would probably cause a lot of people to hesitate.

When i say caring, i'm talking about the way she defends willow, the way she won't give up on her in 'the killer in me' and finds a way to bring her back and the way she supports her when her securities arise over the slayer spell.

As i say i'm by no way claimingthe girl is perfect. She certainly speaks too many times before she thinks. I just think she has more good qualities than some give her credit for.

**sherrilina** · 20-06-07, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

I'm basically stealing this thread part and parcel from another forum, where it exists to discuss unpopular opinions. I would like to discuss unpopular opinions about the whole of the Buffyverse. The things you've thought but figure most people won't agree with you on.

I'll start it off with the original topic: Kennedy.

I dislike Kennedy because of her presumptuousness. There is a little bit of a mafia metaphor available for the Scoobies in the Buffyverse, and Kennedy was not a made guy in any way shape or form. She repeatedly spoke out of turn about how things should be run, things which included, among other things, *protecting her*.

-- She thought she was a better fighter than Spike to go after the exchange demon ("Get It Done")

-- She basically dismissed anybody else's factual knowledge about magic, and Willow's magic ("The Killer In Me", "Get It Done")

-- She tried to undermine Buffy in front of the whole house, twice ("Get It Done", "Empty Places"). Even when Buffy is a bitch or out of line, that's something you bring to her in private, *especially* if you have no credibility on your own. Faith challenges Buffy in front of others? Faith has been through the wars, she has something to contribute. Kennedy had not done a single thing other than complain and have her life saved.

-- She immediately tried to undermine Faith when *she* took charge ("Touched"). Kennedy's only real interest in being heard from was for her to get her way.

-- She called another potential a "maggot" for messing up in training that she really wasn't meaningfully qualified to provide ("Get It Done"). Not only does Kennedy talk down to other Potentials, many of whom clearly want no part of this 'army' thing and just don't want to be murdered, but she gets pushy about Wood being there, too. Like Buffy has to answer to Kennedy over who she invites into *HER* house. That's classless whether Buffy is a bitchy leader or not.

I've said elsewhere, Kennedy was very much like Beatrix Kiddo needing her own Pai Mei. I truly wish we'd seen Buffy or Faith or Spike deal with that.

All that without talking about Willow/Kennedy. It's a rebound for Willow, clearly. I can't imagine what they possibly have in common. I'm pretty glad that

Spoiler:

Edit: I realize that's actually not one of my unpopular opinions, but a response to the original notion of someone loving Kennedy.

My more genuine unpopular opinion? Angel isn't much of a hero.

Phew, lol, I thought you were saying that YOU loved Kennedy! I agree with everything you said, especially about her acting liek such an uber-bitch when it's BUFFY's house, and she's living there as a GUEST--and yet she acts like it's her own. The only time I ever liked Kennedy is when she shuts down Rona with her "the sharp end of the stake you hit vamps with" (or whatever it was) in response to Rona's "What's the point"--which just shows how absolutely intolerable and awful Rona was if compared to her Kennedy is decent. Honestly, everytime Rona opened her mouth I wanted to slap her...

Hm, KoC, I'd like to hear you elaborate on your opinion that Angel isn't much of a hero....as for me, the first things that come to mind are episodes--such as IWRY, which I can't stand, but which I know many consider a classic. I just find it so incredible pointless and such a waste of time, even more so than pure fillers, b/c at least in fillers the timeline advances--here the whole episode doesn't happen in the Angelverse except for Angel! We end up where we began, and I feel like going "What was that all for?!" And considering how little Buffy is in Angel, and how little Bangel is featured in it, I think this epp is also rather unnecessary as a "Bangel in a nutshell for those kids at home who didn't watch Buffy". But yeah, the fact that the whole epp goes nowhere drives me crazy, as does the fact that Buffy and Angel in the episode spend almost their whole time BICKERING (even after he becomes human, they're arguing about whether to pursue a relationship or not), and that Angel is now a vamp by choice rather than curse--for some reason that doesn't sit very well with me. I feel like he has no right to complain about being a vampire now, b/c he chose it.

In ships, an unpopular opinion I hold is that I prefer Frunn and Wilah to Fresley--I've just never seen what the big deal with Fresley is, and think it was very rushed and poorly done (with Fred never liking Wes that way for years, even in the beginning of season 5 when she's flirting with Knox, then suddenly she sees him casting a spell, and next thing you know she likes him romantically and wants him to kiss her--like a magic switch went off somewhere. And then she dies--okay, so much for that....:confused2: I know there's the whole tragedy thing, and AHITW is very tragic, but I kind of think most of the tragedy love-wise is on Wes's part, with his whole series-long unrequited-love for her (which is sweet, but as the one-sided love that it is until the last two epps Fred's alive)--I feel on Fred's part it could have been Gunn there and it wouldn't have emotionally made much difference. I think there was more build-up with Illyria's feelings for Wes than Fred's--there's really no indication as to why Fred suddenly likes Wes...

Also, I just find Wilah so much more interesting and compelling, and with so much more chemistry, with both the hot physical scenes, and the way in which Lilah grows to love someone besides herself, in a way we could never imagine before--I love how both soften to one another and grow to love each other (Lilah more so than Wes of course), when it began as all physical. There's definitely more development with Wilah than with Fresley...and I jut find Frunn to be so adorable and cute, and like how Gunn becomes softer and Fred more confident and open in the course of their relationship. But I know that most people like Fresley and that Frunn is rather unpopular...

**Mabus** · 20-06-07, 04:46 PM

Er...see my long post on the "killing humans" thread. As I've said many a time, my perspectives on nonhumans and ethics were nearly set in stone long before I encountered Buffy; I have trouble seeing Buffyverse demons as nonpeople, or believing that any being can be intrinsically, unchangeably evil.

**Nostalgia** · 20-06-07, 08:42 PM

Kennedy is a horrible character.. she truely acted like a brat and tried to take control over Buffy's house as a "guest" who was receiving protection and shelter. And once Buffy is gone, she AGAIN tries to take over without even acknowledging the fact that she is NOT the slayer and Faith and Buffy are. However, as bad as Kennedy is.. she is no Rona. Rona was God awful.. she never wanted to contribute.. she never wanted to be there.. she was always making witty comments about how she's too young to be doing this. She never accepted her calling, while at least Kennedy was one to accept her duties and embrace the upcoming battles. Rona just got a free ride. While she is a coward the entire season, she has the audacity to criticize Buffy? The moment she stated "Ding dong, the witch is dead," I literally wanted to reach into my screen and rip every inch of her hair out.

Anyway.. hmm.. unpopular opinions..

1. I'd have to say that I am not huge on the Willow/Tara relationship. Although I will be honest and recognize that they truely loved and were mean't for eachother. I still enjoy Willow and Oz's relationship a thousand times more.

2. Season Five is not that good.

3. Season 1's campiness is extremely fun to watch and entertaining.

4. Go Fish is a good episode.

5. Buffy and Parker should have been used more... they were mean't for eachother.

I'm kidding..

**Creamy Coolness** · 20-06-07, 09:16 PM

Most of the point you mentionned are consequences of Kennedy traits. I do like the character for what it brings out of Willow, it was a challenging relationship after the 'peaceful' relation she had with Tara. Peaceful in the way they behaved, Willow being directing the relationship to me.

Now Kennedy is speaking her mind and try to always keep a positive approach to any problems. She may cross the line a lot but most of what she said was something other characters thought deeply. For instance, when she supported to kick out Buffy, most of them agreed. I understand the fact it was hardly her place to tell her and do what she did but at the same time, the life of many people were at stake, so it was a critical matter. It could surely be understood. I, for instance, would have done the same thing.

I can see the negative counterpart of this attitude, it's often irritating but had it been wrong, it would have never annoyed me

It's just that she's like Anya but she stole Willow from the paradise that was Tillow

**Wolfie Gilmore** · 20-06-07, 09:28 PM

Unpopular opnions, hmm... I find my opinions are probably quite mainstream on this board (though not on...other places, where Andrew is (gasp) hated and the early seasons are seen as the holy grail). Let's see if I can't come up with something...

1) I like Dawn. I love her inclusion in the universe, I think it was a brilliant idea to completely rejig the universe like that. She was a little annoying, but only in the way that teenagers are, so she felt real. So cute when she says "who's the man".

2) Xander is very mean to Anya while they're together, putting her down all the time. I don't think he respected her, and I'm not sure he ever loved her in the way he claimed to.

3) Buffy vs Dracula and Superstar are a couple of of my favourite episodes. Oh, and I loved the David Lynchiness of Doublemeat Palace.

4) What Joss says about the show is separate from the show itself - just cos he says something is the "right" interpretation, doesn't make it right. Once something is on screen, it's available to all to interpret in any which way the images/acting/writing/direction allows. A story doesn't belong to the teller, that is. Except in the, you know, literal, legal sense, with the copyright...and even then, presumably the networks get a cut?

5) Sometimes the show is ickily over-sentimental. As in Anya's speech in the body about Joyce never having eggs or brushing her hair. Save it for the Hallmark channel, ducks.

6) Angel is a nonce. Ok, that's probably not all that unpopular...

**Nostalgia** · 20-06-07, 09:50 PM

I'm sorry but you're wrong. The story does belong to the teller... otherwise what's the point of debate? If we can just twist the stories to our own opinions and wantings? What Joss says goes. He is the creator. We can't change the scripts to our liking.

**redrevo** · 20-06-07, 09:50 PM

1) I like Dawn. I love her inclusion in the universe, I think it was a brilliant idea to completely rejig the universe like that. She was a little annoying, but only in the way that teenagers are, so she felt real. So cute when she says "who's the man".

Good one..."short, annoying man," but yes, she is a great character. She does a great job as Buffy's charge and also as her own person, researching and the like, trying to help while still having sibling rivalry. I liked her all the way through seasons 5-6, and probably will through s7 and the comics.

Also:

I don't like Spike or Angel. On BtVS I thought they were both rather simple and a bit boring.

I don't like "Help." It just sort of reiterated things that were already covered in "The Body."

I didn't hate Riley, and liked Buffy/Riley. <waits for flames>

Season 2 wasn't all it was cracked up to be, especially compared to 5-7.

**bishopcruz** · 20-06-07, 10:16 PM

Ah, good call bringing this thread over KoC, and now we have all of the Buffyverse to discuss and not just BTVS.

1) Andrew is AWFUL. He is a sniveling excuse for a human being that had no business hanging around the scoobies. I recently did a rewatching of Buffy S6 and S7, and am still amazed that no one seemed to care that he murdered Johnathan, covered up another murder, and was basically a little evil bastard.

Yes I know, geek humor is funny, but Andrew earned none of the place that he got within the gang. I look at him in S6, smiling about getting away with murder, egging Warren on to kill Buffy, and being wholly unrepentant about it and he makes me ill. Then he stabs Johnathan, and a few short episodes later he's supposed to be the wacky houseguest? I don't buy it. It got even worse in Angel and S8, where he seems to be in a relative position of power in the new Slayer army. What were they THINKING?

2. Kinda an auxillary to 1, but Storyteller was not that funny.

3. Cangel was really awesome. I loved it, and I was always pissed that it seemed to get shoved under the carpet in Angel S5. I mean she dies one episode, and the next Angel is dating again. Geez, and people say Willow moved on to quickly.

4. Season 7 may possibly be the worst season of Buffy. Popular on other forums, doesn't seem to be popular here.

5. Xander and Buffy were the couple the show should have ended on.

**KingofCretins** · 20-06-07, 10:36 PM

I don't think Angel is much of a hero because I find him to be pretty selfish, vain, and easily corrupted. Even with a soul, he does a lot of things that I find to be more or less just good old evil. Locking the lawyers up for Darla and Drusilla. Erasing the memories of pretty much everyone he knows. Killing Drogyn as part of a plan he came up with on his own. Going to W&H in the first place.

**Leloo** · 21-06-07, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Creamy Coolness View Post

Most of the point you mentionned are consequences of Kennedy traits. I do like the character for what it brings out of Willow, it was a challenging relationship after the 'peaceful' relation she had with Tara. Peaceful in the way they behaved, Willow being directing the relationship to me.

Now Kennedy is speaking her mind and try to always keep a positive approach to any problems. She may cross the line a lot but most of what she said was something other characters thought deeply. For instance, when she supported to kick out Buffy, most of them agreed. I understand the fact it was hardly her place to tell her and do what she did but at the same time, the life of many people were at stake, so it was a critical matter. It could surely be understood. I, for instance, would have done the same thing.

I can see the negative counterpart of this attitude, it's often irritating but had it been wrong, it would have never annoyed me

It's just that she's like Anya but she stole Willow from the paradise that was Tillow

I see two main things that makes people hate on Kennedy.
One being that she moved in on Willow so soon after (well for us soon) Tara's death. Well she wasn't there when Tara was around so how was she to know was she to know about her? She saw something she liked, she went for it and she got it. She might have been rebound for Willow but Willow wasn't forced to do anything. I liked the two of them together, maybe because I don't think of them as soul mates but rather just something nice.

The other being simply the way she speaks her mind and is a strong personality who doesn't just sit down and accepts the facts.
She questions everything and she won't just accept what Buffy or anyone tells her, unless she knows it's a fact.
She has her opinions and sometimes they might be wrong but I admire that she stands by them even though she's in a strange city surrounded by strangers and in danger of being killed.
I suppose she could have been a bit more humble sometimes seeing as she was a guest in the house but there were so many girls there and I suppose her personality just made her speak her mind.

She would have been a great slayer had she been called, she has a lot of traits that suggests she'd be a good leader.

I also think most people hate her simply because she could have been as strong as Buffy... I would just have loved to see her character develop and I am sure that she'd be move lovable to a wider audience had she had the chance.
I really loved her from the first time she came into the house

I loved her straighforward attitude, it was nice and refreshing, I think.

She had a disadvantage and that was that she was only given such a short amount of time to make an impression on the viewers....

**bishopcruz** · 21-06-07, 12:34 AM

I always liked how Angel was a much much darker show in general than Buffy ever was. So, I guess while a lot of the things he did, weren't heroic, as he did fall from time to time. I still viewed him as a hero (perhaps the anti-hero) and absolutely loved his character. Sunnydale was a place of pretty much black and white. LA was a grey, grey place. I kinda wonder how Buffy would have done had she had W&H make it their sole mission to drive her over the edge, methinks not so well.

But that's besides the point. I never really saw Angel as particularly selfish, though I did see him as flawed. He always did what he felt he had to, and while it wasn't always the right thing, it was always understandable. But, hey I like my dark heroes, was always more a Batman or Punisher guy as compared to Cap or Supes.

**KingofCretins** · 21-06-07, 12:44 AM

I see two main things that makes people hate on Kennedy.
One being that she moved in on Willow so soon after (well for us soon) Tara's death. Well she wasn't there when Tara was around so how was she to know was she to know about her? She saw something she liked, she went for it and she got it. She might have been rebound for Willow but Willow wasn't forced to do anything. I liked the two of them together, maybe because I don't think of them as soul mates but rather just something nice.

I don't hold this against Kennedy -- I would hit on Willow, too, if I showed up in Sunnydale and didn't know the details. Kennedy's major offenses are the five more or less indefensible complaints I made.

The other being simply the way she speaks her mind and is a strong personality who doesn't just sit down and accepts the facts.
She questions everything and she won't just accept what Buffy or anyone tells her, unless she knows it's a fact.

But she doesn't know anything at all, is the problem. It's one thing to take that approach if you actually have been around a little and have *some* kind of experience in the world, either the supernatural one or the regular one. Kate Locksley, for instance, had a lot of that "question everything unless she knows it's a fact" attitude... but she actually knew some facts around which to form opinions. Kennedy, who we can only assume had a pretty non-descript education from her Watcher because of her lack of overall knowledge, was not much farther along than Buffy was when Merrick found her and thinking she should basically be in charge.

**Nostalgia** · 21-06-07, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by bishopcruz
1) Andrew is AWFUL. He is a sniveling excuse for a human being that had no business hanging around the scoobies. I recently did a rewatching of Buffy S6 and S7, and am still amazed that no one seemed to care that he murdered Johnathan, covered up another murder, and was basically a little evil bastard.

Yes I know, geek humor is funny, but Andrew earned none of the place that he got within the gang. I look at him in S6, smiling about getting away with murder, egging Warren on to kill Buffy, and being wholly unrepentant about it and he makes me ill. Then he stabs Johnathan, and a few short episodes later he's supposed to be the wacky houseguest? I don't buy it. It got even worse in Angel and S8, where he seems to be in a relative position of power in the new Slayer army. What were they THINKING?

2. Kinda an auxillary to 1, but Storyteller was not that funny.

3. Cangel was really awesome. I loved it, and I was always pissed that it seemed to get shoved under the carpet in Angel S5. I mean she dies one episode, and the next Angel is dating again. Geez, and people say Willow moved on to quickly.

4. Season 7 may possibly be the worst season of Buffy. Popular on other forums, doesn't seem to be popular here.

1. Did you see Storyteller? Andrew obviously felt horrible about what he had done. I agree for most of season seven, it was treated way too lightly. However, to still be angry at Andrew.. that's a little absurd. He is obviously really sorry about what he had done, and he wanted to make up for his murder by helping the gang at the final battle in Chosen, despite the fact that he thought he was probably very well going to die.

2. Well obviously you have seen Storyteller. Wow.. I'd have to say this one tops the cake. Storyteller is without a doubt the funniest piece of television I have ever seen (discarding any comedic shows or cartoons). I don't know if it's because you have a vendetta for Andrew or whatever.. but I was in tears in some scenes of this episode. I am truely confused. Jane Espenson is a genius sometimes.

3. God.. Cangel is so wrong. You know I am a hypocrite too.. because I don't want Angel with anyone.. let alone Cordelia (totally ruins the "Sorry, but I'm with Buffy.. she's too showy for me" concept). Yet, I absolutely love Spuffy and enjoy it more than Bangel.

Sorry.

4. I never really understood the hate for season seven. Sure it's hit or miss... but so is season five (yet that remains as "one of the greatest seasons ever." Season 5 and season seven have one thing very in common.. they both have really great episodes and really bad ones.

Originally Posted by Lelee
I also think most people hate her simply because she could have been as strong as Buffy... I would just have loved to see her character develop and I am sure that she'd be move lovable to a wider audience had she had the chance.
I really loved her from the first time she came into the house I loved her straighforward attitude, it was nice and refreshing, I think.

...... What? First of all Kennedy could never be as strong as Buffy simply because she's not a slayer. Second of all.. after everything Buffy's been through, her mother, saving the world, life and death twice, you're really going to state that? That actually might be the icing that tops the cake.

**bishopcruz** · 21-06-07, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post

1. Did you see Storyteller? Andrew obviously felt horrible about what he had done. I agree for most of season seven, it was treated way too lightly. However, to still be angry at Andrew.. that's a little absurd. He is obviously really sorry about what he had done, and he wanted to make up for his murder by helping the gang at the final battle in Chosen, despite the fact that he thought he was probably very well going to die.

See, the thing with that scene, was to me it felt much more that Andrew was crying because he thought all of his mistakes were catching up to him. He was going to die or so he thought, and while yes I'm sure he felt bad. I didn't much get the whole idea that he had learned from him. At the end of the day he is a true cold blooded muderer. But he was supposed to be cute and lovable, and I never got that. What I think made it worse for me was that he even SAID he knew it was a lie and he killed Jonathan anyway. That is just friggen sick. Andrew is insane, he grabs on to whatever is closest to him and tries to emulate it for acceptance. He will kill for that acceptance. I have no reason to feel that that has changed. He killed, he CHEERED for Warren to kill Buffy, and in a very evil way. He is not a redeemed character, he is a sociopath.

2. Well obviously you have seen Storyteller. Wow.. I'd have to say this one tops the cake. Storyteller is without a doubt the funniest piece of television I have ever seen (discarding any comedic shows or cartoons). I don't know if it's because you have a vendetta for Andrew or whatever.. but I was in tears in some scenes of this episode. I am truely confused. Jane Espenson is a genius sometimes.

I just don't feel that Storyteller was earned. It does have a couple of great moments at SHS, but other than that the Andrew stuff falls flat to me on repeated viewings. YMMV of course. But I'm still right.

3. God.. Cangel is so wrong. You know I am a hypocrite too.. because I don't want Angel with anyone.. let alone Cordelia (totally ruins the "Sorry, but I'm with Buffy.. she's too showy for me" concept). Yet, I absolutely love Spuffy and enjoy it more than Bangel.

Sorry.

Meh, I thought DB and CC had great chemestry, and I like relationships that come out of friendship. I was never a Bangel fan, or a Spuffy fan either. I thought that Cangel was a nice and healthy thing for Angel, if y'know it hadn't been stillborn.

4. I never really understood the hate for season seven. Sure it's hit or miss... but so is season five (yet that remains as "one of the greatest seasons ever." Season 5 and season seven have one thing very in common.. they both have really great episodes and really bad ones.

I've put this elsewhere, but it is kinda my distillation of why S7 didn't work for me, and it saves me from retyping the same points over and over:

Season 7's biggest problem was the lack of polish IMO. Conceptually it wasn't that bad, but in excecution, it failed miserably. I LOVED early S7 because it really felt that Buffy had gone back to form, we had the high school again, Buffy actually helping people who weren't scoobies, Buffy and Xander as surrogate parents to Dawn. Everything was set up so well.

After about the first third of the season however, things started mucking up. They spent far too long deciding whether Giles was dead or not, had no idea how to differentiate Spike with a soul from Spike without one, (VERY true in late S7.) and marginalized the core characters that they were supposed to have been focusing on.

Continuity was a complete mess, the writing was fairly lackluster, the amulet and Scythe came out of NOWHERE, and the First went from being a pretty damned cool villain to well a joke by the end of the season. It really is a shame, because there is some good stuff there, but to a hardcore follower of Buffy, the season just felt rushed and directionless. It's like they had an endpoint in mind, but had no idea of how to actually get there.

Let me REALLY stress that last point. The writing for S7 was just plain LAZY, more so than I think any previous season. I hate that, a lot.

**Willow's Tara** · 21-06-07, 04:32 AM

Well I actually liked Kennedy, not love just like, althought she could never replace Tara in a million years even if she tried, I don't think she could replace Oz either

Announcement

"I love Kennedy", and other things you stand alone on

"I love Kennedy", and other things you stand alone on

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