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Out of favour: Things you never wanted to see in the Jossverse?

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  • Out of favour: Things you never wanted to see in the Jossverse?

    "What are you, some immortal thread sent down to even the score between good and bad?" - "Wow. Good guess."
    What are your five least favourite things (off the top of your head, today, doesn't have to be in order) in the Jossverse (I mean, both Buffy and Angel). Could be an episode, could be a story arc, could be a character, could be a moment, could be a particular piece of clothing worn by a character, anything!

    More just to add something in order not to be accused of blatant plagiarism than to clarify: This isn't about those things you love to hate, or those moments that really upset you, this is about those things that don't contribute anything but are plain annoying.
    Last edited by kassyopeia; 16-08-08, 12:06 AM.

  • #2
    1. The Girl in Question, this episode is wrong in so many ways that I really can't like it. There are some great jokes but the characters are victims of the stupid story.

    -We had Angel who dates Nina, trying to get Buffy. Worse, the hypocrite started to cry because she moved on.
    -We had Spike and Angel being way more petty and pathetic than they normally are.
    -Andrew makes is his hobby to provocate Angel and Spike. Is one humiliation by Andrew not enough?
    -Let's forget the fact that Angel already moved on in season 3 ... just for fun.
    -Not one of the fang gang seems to have the great idea to tell Fred's parents about her death. It was her last wish, but who cares.
    -Wesley is going nuts, but instead Angel feels more for a trip to Rome. Talking about a good friend.
    -If Angel and Spike fail, there will be a big fight ... still they can only focus on their ex.
    -This time could be used for a better set up to the last episode ever. Angel already had the NFA plan in his head by then ... why going to Rome to be pathetic.

    2. The failure that was Chosen, it had nice music and pretty effects ... but to end a series like this ... season 7 was bad and Chosen couldn't redeem it.

    3. No Cordelia in season 5, it could redeem evil Cordy & saint Cordy.

    4. Buffy in season 7, way to go writers ... I stopped caring about the main character of the show.

    5. The Spike retcon. Joss and his staff can say 10 times that I was stupid and they are great, and that it was brilliant ... well, it was just as brilliant as Buffy's plan in Chosen ... I know what I saw and I feel fooled in a bad way. BTW, how did Spike travel on a motorcycle to Africa in less than 2 days?


    And now I've no place for the failures that were Dracula, LMPTM, C/C sex, She, the 'fathers are evil' rule and Willow's redemption arc. And worse, no space for my Andrew problems. Or what about The First ...
    Last edited by Nina; 16-08-08, 01:06 AM.

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    • #3
      I know what you mean about all the rest, even if I don't agree about some of them, but could you explain why don't you like "She"? I quite like the episode, I'd rate it about average in terms of storyline compared with the rest of the season and quite amusing in its way.

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      • #4
        Fairly? Okay

        1. Tara's death- They didn't explore the character enough and she still had so much potential. I found pointless

        2. The complete ignorance in Btvs of what was happening in Ats and Visa Versa.

        3. Dracula altogether

        4. The cowboy vampires

        5. Darla's Death waste of a great character who could have been recurring
        "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

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        • #5
          1) Spike & Anya sex in 'Entropy.' Oh hey yeah, we've gone cheap so lets ruin the subtext here and just hook these two up because everything's about being "literal" this season right? And we've got nothing else to make people even more depressed and we might as well just make every character have sex with each other... lame and pointless, completely ruined the simmering tension between the two that never needed to be acted on

          2) Lies My Parents Told Me. Just the whole episode, what a crock of shit "she knew what she signed up for?" And here I thought Buffy had been *chosen.*

          3) Lack of remorse or care from any of the Ats team other than Angel (and even that was minimal) over Cordy's death in 'You're Welcome.' What horrible disrespect for a woman who'd been an integral part of their lives and the show, for years.

          4) I agree about the ignorance between Btvs and Ats in what was going on in either series. Should've been more acknowledgment for major events to make the whole thing a more cohesive universe.

          5) "You've sent away the one person who's been watching my back" Not only did I nearly put my foot through the telly but these words actually made me dislike my favourite character and one woman who I've never been able to dislike, for that one horrible moment. Just bleh..... Worst line in the entire verse IMO.

          ~ Banner by Nina ~

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          • #6
            "OMG Buffy. u give me like, 16 boners. ur totally the one. 1hell of a women."
            "OMG spike. ur the only one who understands me and stuff."
            "LOL, lets make out."

            Excuse me while I go vomit. And Vampmogs I totally agree about "You've sent away the one person who's been watching my back." What kind of crap is that? Season 7 was full of moments that made me cringe with disgust.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by kassyopeia View Post
              I know what you mean about all the rest, even if I don't agree about some of them, but could you explain why don't you like "She"? I quite like the episode, I'd rate it about average in terms of storyline compared with the rest of the season and quite amusing in its way.
              'She' is the only episode in both series that I never finished watching. I love the dancing, but I just really don't like the episode. I don't know what irks me about it, but it does.

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              • #8
                beer bad is the only episode i've had a tough time finishing. i think i made it through once or twice. i don't hate any ats episodes really. some aren't favorites, but i don't hate them. beer bad is the only one i can honestly find very little redeeming value in.

                my two biggest beefs are buffy's slayer shadowrape and that she'd kill dawn if she had to redo the gift.

                the slayer thing going from being inconvenient for her wanting to be a normal girl--the whole "foreign or domestic?" snipe about responsibility, the whole thing with riley feeling uncomfortable with her being stronger--goes with spike's comment about "did you bruise the boy" for parker, the fact that the slayer was created with a demonic essence in a rape-like situation, etc... to suddenly being... get this... "female empowerment"?

                i liked angel's humanist message about free will/freedom of choice over utopian communist world peace much better. ats always was much better thought-out than btvs tended to be.

                season 7's message was... i don't have a plan. thankfully, my boyfriends and some evil inc. lawyers ultimately saved the day (though i love the upping of ats--made it feel slightly less like the red-headed step-child). if the vague deus ex machina ("scrubbing bubbles") from an untrustworthy source does not work, i'll shadowrape 18,000 teenage girls and give them the life i've always frequently hated with the hope that one day i'll feel like i'm not alone and apart of something. if i fail at the hellmouth, angel will take over my battle. fast-forward to season 8... buffy still feels alone, horny and separate from the other girls.

                season 8 is not helping my problems with season 7.

                i know i've been hard on buffy, the character, lately, but my opinion of chosen has largely been formed in the aftermath... when i sat down and thought about it. i actually more or less enjoyed it on early viewings.
                Last edited by NileQT87; 16-08-08, 10:01 AM.

                "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                • #9
                  Okay, my turn, just "Buffy" for now:
                  1. Scott Hope. What a wuss.
                  2. The lameness of the hellhounds in "The Prom". Humans don't make convincing dogs. Just stop trying.
                  3. The top Buffy is wearing during the "I need you to be my watcher again" conversation in "Buffy vs Dracula"
                  4. The "Doublemeat Palace" mini-arc. Too painful to watch.
                  5. "Conversations With Dead People" having an Andrew- but no Xander-segment

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                  • #10
                    1) Evil Cordy. It's all just wrong! C/C sex is the worst thing ever happened on Ats. Why did Cordy have to be all jasminified? And the thing that bugs me the most is that she is their but it isn't her. Everything about that just bugs me so much!

                    2) I have to say the same thing as vampmogs, the lack of sadness after Cordys death. I was really looking forward to Angel telling the gang about it and then his total breakdown. But he nearly don't mention it. They are all freaking out after Freds death, but it's like they don't even care that their dear and closest friend and love had died.

                    3) Fred and Wes relationship. It's not that I don't like it but thats just cruel. What did they get a week together? Not even a whole episode before she died. That's so incredible mean. I mean to finally let him have the girl he so long loved and then just kill her in such a painful way. Poor Wesley.

                    4) Angel dating Nina. Just so meaningless.

                    5) Groo. I just don't get Cordys crush on him in Pylea. And then go saying she loves him is just stupid (even if Angels conversation with himself is really funny). And then he coming back in season 3 trying to fight together with them is just blaaa. The only good thing he did was make Cordy realize she was in love in Angel. But to late, maybe Angel could have done that in time if he hadn't ruined it.

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                    • #11
                      I think it's about time they dropped Buffy's "I'm so alone" schtick. That's been going on since the start of the show and even then she was less alone than all of the previous slayers -she had friends, family and a social life.

                      Fair enough she was the only girl in the world "chosen" to fight evil I can understand her lonliness in that regard but she's not alone anymore. There are nearly two thousand other girls out there in the exact same position and the impression I got from "Chosen" is that if Buffy now has the option of having a somewhat more normal if she so chooses. She's less alone right now than any other slayer ever.


                      The lameness of the hellhounds in "The Prom". Humans don't make convincing dogs. Just stop trying.
                      Oh my god yes. Here's a novel idea... why not actually use dogs? Instead we were treated to werewolves, hellhounds and I think even one other Initiative canine monster all played by people running around on all fours. It was beyond dumb. The hellhounds made the Loan Shark look like a more realistic creature.
                      Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 17-08-08, 12:30 AM.

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                      • #12
                        I hated the doublemeat palace. Seriously!

                        Annoited one.. i think spike was right more like annoying one!


                        I couldnt figure out why willow and tara couldnt get jobs too?? Did they bring buffy back from the dead just to make her alone to pay the bills??


                        Dracula sucked.. i was really dissappointed at that epidode.

                        They never should've killed tara.

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                        • #13
                          1) The knights of Byzantium
                          2) Go Fish
                          3) The snow in Amends
                          4) Get out, get out, get out!!!
                          5) English peoples names. Rupert? Quentin? Deidre? Not stereotypical at all there then.
                          JUST ENOUGH KILL

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tangent View Post
                            3) The snow in Amends
                            I've always been in two minds about this. On the one hand it feels just like a cop out or a cheesy christmas miracle kind of thing but then the whole idea of the PTB having done it does bring it back a bit. The problem with that though is that I only thought of it like that when I read it on old buffyworld which lessens it again. A plot thing like that shouldn't have to be suggested to you from outside the show.

                            1) Anya never getting any grief for all the things she's done throughout her life.
                            2) Spike as a vampire trying to be good because it messes up the system, showing that vampires are in-fact redeemable, and are just killed without being given the chance. (this is another thread, sorry) Also it kind of shows the initative (due to the chip) working, which also doesn't work for me.
                            3) on that note... the initative. This showing that there is governmental knowlage of the supernatural throws into light the question of why they haven't done more about it.
                            4) The buffybot... it was all a little, icky, to be honest.
                            5) Conner and Cordy.
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                            A Boy Named Jayne

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                            • #15
                              Oh there's a lot of things, but from the top of my head:

                              1) Episode "Go fish"
                              2) The Doublemeat Palace - having Buffy working there was so awful...
                              3) Cordy being evil - even though I never really liked her in the first place, seing her go evil in the plot to bring Jasmine to the world was just too much, it made her that much annoying to me.
                              4) Joyce and Tara's dead - I was just too sad to see them go.
                              avatar credit: me!!

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                              • #16
                                Ok so i thought of five more...

                                I hated the fact that EVERYONE is always wearing coats, and pants, and long sleeve shirts.. IT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA!! It's hot people!

                                I hate that Giles didn't get a steady flame.

                                I hate that buffy's dad just dissappeared never to be heard of again.

                                Riley coming back for that one episode with his wife,.. stupid.

                                Adam was a lame villian.. there i said it!

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                                • #17
                                  1. Spuffy
                                  2. Spike on Angel
                                  3. The overuse in general of Spike
                                  4. Angel kissing Cordy, fighting Spike over Buffy, and sleeping with Nina all around the same time in Ats season 5.
                                  5. Everyone becoming less likeable (to me) except maybe Xander, in Buffy's later 2 seasons.
                                  No power in the 'verse can stop me.

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                                  • #18
                                    1) Fred’s death/A Hole in the Wolrd - Ugh. UGH. My mouth filled with slow vomit as that episode dragged on and on, getting cheesier and cheesier, and more like a Puccini opera but without the awesome music. I’m almost surprised no one said that her tiny hand was frozen. Victorian angel in the house syndrome, it’s fatal to a female character’s dignity as well as her body. The moment that Lorne offered to pray, I was ready to cut his head off AND mutilate his body… and I LOVE Lorne. Any episode that can make me hate Lorne must be very bad indeed. This one is best described in parallel with Oscar Wilde’s comments on the death of little Nell: ''One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell without laughing'' Although, Dickens actually didn’t describe the death of little Nell, so Joss somehow manages to be more mawkishly sentimental than Dickens. That’s like managing to have more swear words than Tarantino.

                                    I’m not sure anything matches up to Fred’s death for me for awfulness, but, leaving a suitable gap to acknowledge that nothing can be that bad…



                                    2) The First Evil. I acknowledge that the First Evil had some potential as a villain – the idea of it appearing as dead people is interesting. But for it to work, I think a radical rethink was needed. As it was, it was flat and mwah ha haishly vague. I never got any real sense of why it was doing what it was doing, or what its big grand Spike plans were. Villains need to set out their store more clearly in order for the threat to the good guys to feel real or scary, or emotionally engaging. If the First’s plan was to wipe out the slayer line, it could’ve done it far more efficiently. If its plan was to fck with people’s heads for twisted pleasure THEN wipe out the slayer line…there are many better psychological tortures it could’ve pulled off if it had remained hidden for longer. Basically, I never really felt there were proper motives behind its individual actions, and its grand plan always felt a bit ad hoc. If the point of the thing had been that evil is just as sloppy and sometimes directionless as good, that could’ve been interesting. But I don’t feel that WAS the point of it. It all just felt like a mess.

                                    3) The scene in the Bronze with Amy and Willow doing magic, and the general hamfisted treatment of Willow’s magic addiction (in places…sometimes it worked…eg Dark Willow…though when she says “I’m so juiced, who’s your supplier?” that’s pretty cringey.) The Bronze scene stands out for special mention because it’s all so bloody Charmed-like. It’s silly and not funny, and there are so many better ways that the girls could’ve wreaked magical chaos, and actually done something properly edgy and dangerous. If Ethan can do it, I'm sure Willow can! As it is, it’s just all a bit…I dunno, like something that should be on the Disney Channel at four in the afternoon. Probably hilarious to watch if you’re five, but otherwise, not so much.

                                    4) Evil Cordy. To go back to the Oscar Wilde theme, to lose one strong female character by scooping out her insides and replacing her with a primordial god is a misfortune. To lose two seems like carelessness. Or at least a reactionary depiction of the role of woman in a heroic universe (to die beautifully, to fall asleep, to give the hero something to be pissed off about, and to get up the duff with the messiah or the antichrist). I did love Jasmine though.

                                    5) The fact that they never followed through about Buffy “killing” Ted. That seemed like such a wasted opportunity to me – sidestepping the question of Buffy killing what she thought was a human being. They could’ve at least come back to it with Katrina, with Buffy realising that she’d done this before (kind of), and have her confront her potential to harm others. That would’ve segued nicely with her sense of alienation in season 6. Though perhaps more of a season 5 thing. Or if they could’ve dealt with it immediately in season 2, also good!


                                    -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                                      Basically, I never really felt there were proper motives behind its individual actions, and its grand plan always felt a bit ad hoc. If the point of the thing had been that evil is just as sloppy and sometimes directionless as good, that could’ve been interesting. But I don’t feel that WAS the point of it. It all just felt like a mess.
                                      Indeed. The First, given its transcendent nature, would have made a much better mischief villain than the petty power-hungry kind they tried to set it up as. Having it act simply because it's bored, and then giving it an exit a la Sweet in the musical, could have been quite interesting.
                                      The fact that they never followed through about Buffy “killing” Ted. That seemed like such a wasted opportunity to me – sidestepping the question of Buffy killing what she thought was a human being.
                                      Yeah, that's a recurring thing, even. Buffy thought she killed human Ted, but he turned out a robot, so it's all good. Buffy meant to kill human Faith, but she survived, so it's all good. I'm not entirely sure if this is a deliberate aspect of Buffy's character, being more concerned with outcomes than intentions... it does sort of befit a hero to think that way, what matters is to get the job done. But it doesn't really mesh too well with the rest of her character, she isn't that sort of hero. Her self-reflection even goes as far as to make her catatonic in season 5. Weird writers.

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                                      • #20
                                        1) I hate that we never got to see Ethan Rayne after he was handed over to the Initiative in season 4. I adored his character and loved how he brought the Ripper side of Giles out when those two used to clash. A great character that was left dangling.

                                        2) I hate that Giles/Watcher council never truly acknowledged what an incredible thing Spike had done by getting himself a soul. It should have effected how Vampires are viewed and what they could be capable off.

                                        3) I hated Buffy being written as being emotionally so hard, and that the writers seemed to think that to be successful in battle meant that a women must act like a man.

                                        4) I hated how Angel was brought in as a 'prop' for Buffy in season seven and emotionally regressed, thus ignoring all the character development he'd built up in his own show. 'Quippy Angel' felt sooo wrong in my opinion. I mean Angel had only just 'lost' his only son before their meeting, and they should have at least taken that into consideration when drafting out that scene. What I loved about both Buffy and Angel as shows was that the characters grew through the years and it showed. This seemed to go against everything the writers had stood for uptil then.

                                        5) I really, really didn't like the First as a main villain or the Potentials. Both ideas dragged the show down by a huge degree. The Potentials in particular sucked air from all the other characters in nearly every scene that they were included. Something they continue to do in the comics by the looks of it.
                                        Last edited by sueworld; 18-08-08, 02:01 PM.

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