Who Is a Better Man?

[Pandora's_Box]

I never thought about that before and suddenly the answer came to me, not necesseraly the one I expected but so obvious...Spike!

Liam: The lowest of the men, drinking and whoring.
William: A sweet poet, full of love for his mother and Cecily.

Angelus: The first thing he did was slaughtering his all family, including his beloved sister.
William The Bloody: His first thought went to his mother whom he wanted to cure and take with him.

Angel/Angelus: He killed and ravage for 200 hundred years with Darla whom he shared ambiguous passion with, until he got cursed, then worked at redemption for all his sins. But as soon as he lose his soul (BtVS Season 2, Angel Season 4) he gets back to the vicious bastard animal. Trying to end the world and kill the only woman Angel ever loved.
Spike: He rampaged the world for a 100 years, then he came to Sunnydale and still unsouled learnt to truly love (Buffy), to protect (The Scoobies, Dawn), to grief (Joyce, Buffy) and went to the other side of the world to get his soul, as the ultimate proof of love to Buffy.

[Retrograde]

Spike Spike Spike! I love Angelus in a morbid kind of way, but Spike in all his forms was definitely the better man. We've seen Angelus and Darla abandon each other time and time again, but Spike's love for Drusilla was so apparent!

[ThePoet's<3]

I voted for Spike/William (I am a devoted fan... *sigh*)

If you look at the two vampires before they were turned it's hard to make too many judgements about who they were as humans.

Yes, Liam seemed to act out - he was not on good terms with his father. But he was supposedly a young man - around 18 or so right? What young man hasn't "sowed his wild oats"? And although it may not be acceptable behavior to everyone, it's not the worst thing.

William does seemed to be devoted to his mother and to less violent activities. He loves from afar, writes about it - but he wasn't afraid to tell Cecily he loved her. He is the epitomy of a young Victorian gentleman - interested in the more lovely, finer things of life.

I love fanfic about William and Buffy!!

[kassyopeia]

Another important aspect is how "differently evil" they were, which is mentioned quite a few times. E.g. from the last scene of "Damage":

SPIKE
[...] But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.

ANGEL
I couldn't take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. [...]

Spike is all about the violence, Angel is all about the damage.

[Theresa Marie86]

I voted for spike, let's face it Liam was a drunken womanizer mess! Spike worked hard at being the man he was. But don't get confused.. I love me some Angel!!!!!!!

[kana]

I voted for Spike/William (I am a devoted fan... *sigh*)

If you look at the two vampires before they were turned it's hard to make too many judgements about who they were as humans.

Yes, Liam seemed to act out - he was not on good terms with his father. But he was supposedly a young man - around 18 or so right? What young man hasn't "sowed his wild oats"? And although it may not be acceptable behavior to everyone, it's not the worst thing.

William does seemed to be devoted to his mother and to less violent activities. He loves from afar, writes about it - but he wasn't afraid to tell Cecily he loved her. He is the epitomy of a young Victorian gentleman - interested in the more lovely, finer things of life.

I love fanfic about William and Buffy!!

I totally agree. I said something similar when talking about Faith and Buffy, I don't see it as a scoreboard and I don't judge soulless vampires in the same way as humans.

I once used the example of Kralik and the Gorch brothers. They were a lot worse than Liam as humans but didn't reach his level of notoriety as vampires.

I'm not going to write my mini essay on the difference between the characters (just yet) but I will say that one thing Joss teaches us is that few are beyond redemption, no person is just simply worse or better. They will be times when Angel makes mistakes that Spike wont and vice versa.

It's important that both men are trying to make things right now and that has it's own value. I don't think it has to be marred by what happened in the past.

[lara]

Definitely Spike/William for me, and not only because I'm a fan. I mean, for what we could see from Spike/William past, William was a caring person, his mother was the most important person in his life, he took care of her through her illness, he was apparently the man of the house and he seemed to step up to the role, he was inlove with a woman and wrote poetry about her and the feelings she inspired, obviously love was an important part of his life. While Liam was a total messed up person, he had big issues with his father, but for that I can't blame him, everybody has issues, but giving in to alcohol and w**res show how little moral he had, which is sad, since, for what we saw of his history, he was son of a minister or something like that, plus he was like 26 years old when he was turned, come up, time to grow up already!!

About Spike and Angel, as vampires, they were both evil, really evil, except well Spike at least took care of Dru, when Angel never really cared that much for Darla. Later Angel became a champion, he did find his way eventually, and so did Spike, but I think that what make Spike the better man is that he choose to change, he wasn't forced to do it.

[Boltmaiden]

I don't know

Ya know I have no idea how to answer this, I mean most of the time I hate even coming in to anything that puts up a debate on whose better when it comes to Spike and Angel however, it is an interesting question.

I personally do not find the answer easy as some have. Let's look at both of the pre-sired first.

Both Liam and William were seeking approval and love and both in my opinion were weak emotionally.

Liam desperately seeks approval from his father but because of his father's personality he will never actually get it so it is a viscious cycle and thus he lashes out by embarrassing his father by boozing it up and whoring himself to women. But if I remember correctly he was kind to his sister and had friends. He wasn't a bad man, just lost and trying to get back at his father.

William had his mother's love and he was the epitomy of a mamma's boy. He also fell in love with a woman who was cold and callous and he allowed her to treat him as inferior in the name of love. But he also allows others to talk down to him all the time which again shows self- esteem issues which again Liam also has. They choose to deal with rejection differently but seem to both be good men. They are weak and lacking in experience (worldly).

In both cases they allow a beautiful woman to "save" them by giving them a whole new "life" and perspective. Both of their sires teach them about the world not the other way around.

So which one is the better man? Their original family dynamic is different and therefore their choices after turning. William wanted to help his mother (thus deciding to turn her, Liam wanted to punish his father (thus killing him after taking away the rest of his family). So obviously the intent was darker in one act vs. the other.

But then again William's mother treated him well unless you bring in the fact that she probably hindered him in becoming his own man, didn't force him to break his dependence on her. Where Liam was never good enough, constantly knocked down by his father. So they come from different places on how they view their family. But because one of them happened to have a better "family life" than the other...that is what makes one of them better than the other? I just think that is a hard thing to determine because from what I can remember from the scenes we see of both of them pre vampire there is a lot of speculation and not a lot of facts.

Now for when they become vampires and every action they take again the family is explained above but why do we see more of William in Spike than we do Liam in Angelus? That I cannot tell you. Maybe because of the hightened bitterness in Liam that carried over with the demon. Now yes it certainly is very easy to say that Angelus is a bigger bad than Spike however is it really true?

Spike enjoyed the violence (thanks kassyopeia), the kill is what made him feel powerful. Yet he did have his own obsessions just like Angelus. Spike is obsessed with Slayers and Drusilla. Angelus is obsessed with the art of his power and Darla. But both vampires want to be revered, feared, powerful, and wanted.

And honestly Spike has a different journey than Angelus, if Angelus had been chipped instead of Spike what would he have done? I have theories but we don't know, we can never know.

Both Spike and Angelus were obsessed with Buffy and as much as people like to laugh and even say aww at Spike's love for Buffy pre-soul I honestly found it diststurbing and pathetic. He couldn't leave her alone....Angelus was the same way..they just go about it differently.

So where is the difference? Spike seems to embrace parts of his being that reflect being human and love is one of those things. Dru and Spike were in love, somehow they were able to embrace that human trait...but it was still twisted due to the demon in both of them. Angelus and Darla were not able to love, it seems because both of them for what ever reason probably didn't know what loved felt like. Darla was a prostitute, alone with no family, and though probably his mother and sister loved Liam I think he got so lost in his father's rejection. It's like he forgot what love was and thus everything turned into hate.

Where both Drusilla and William had families they were close to, they had felt a type of love and that is where I think the distinction comes into play.

So after all that I just don't know if I can still determine who is...better. And I haven't even gotten into souled Angel and Spike...and of course

Spoiler:

there is now human Angel who is an amazing man in After the Fall

Okay I have to stop for now, maybe I can do some more later to help me make up my mind, or perhaps one of you will finally do enough arguing to sway me one way or the other

[melmel333]

okay so spike is the better man in a lot of ways
and thats why i voted for him

only because evil angel totally puts him out of the running
william really was a sweet heart even when he was turned haha
angel was just flipping evil
but i personally and totally think angel is a better man than spike in later years
there is not even an agrument for that

[Vampire in Rug]

I'm not going to vote for either. Which stage in Spike and Angel's evolution are we supposed to be judging them by?

Who was the better man as a human? IMO, William was certainly a better man than Liam. William cared for his mother and didn't act irresponsibly like Liam. William was sensitive and cared for others, whereas Liam was a douchebag who pretty much just cared about his own gratification, whether it be sex, booze or gambling.

Who was the better man as a soulless vampire? They were both monsters. Spike may have been the lesser of two evils but he was still a whole lot nastier than the average vampire. They were both bastards, Angelus just happened to be better at it.

As for being ensouled vampires, I feel that Angel is the better man by far. Why? Well for starters he "gives a piss" about his victims. Although to be fair, Spike hasn't been doing the whole "vamp with a soul" thing for as long as Angel has, and Angel's early days weren't great either so maybe it's too early to judge.

So, IMO

Better man: human (pre-vamp): William
Better man: souless vamp: William the Bloody/Spike (although this has nothing to do with being a good man, and more to do with being less evil than Angelus)
Better man : ensouled vamp: Angel

[buffyholic]

Spike. I think he was very unique as a vampire, as opposed to Angelus that believed killing was an art and liked to lay low. Spike only killed people because that was the way it was: it was killed or be killed. He was evil, but deep down he was very sensitive. Somehow his personality as William transpires a little as Spike. And Spike, throughout the season made changes to better himself, even went to get himself a soul.

[Nina]

You can't really compare ... but I will try.

First; I let out the soulless fase of their lives. Both were monsters in their own way (the two most vicious vampires ever) and I don't see why we should compare soulless monsters to see who is the better man. Both weren't men.

So we are left with what we know of them before they became vampires and how they were after they were soulled.

It's easy to say that William was a better man than Liam because all we saw of Liam are the little flashbacks of a drunk loser while we saw a cute William who tried to be a good person.

But that's just one moment, if we show a non-BtVS watcher a scene between Cordelia and Willow in their highschool time (let's take the first, in WttH) and you ask afterwards who the best woman is of the two ... he/she would probably say Willow. But if you see everything from Ats and BtVS, the choice is much harder to make because Cordelia has good sides and Willow has bad sides. If Cordelia's parents weren't rich, she would've been more like the Ats Cordelia where she is happy without money. If Willow didn't became friends with Xander but with Harmony when she was 4 ... she would maybe be very unlikable.

The same with Liam and William, the one had an abusing father and the other had a very loving mother. Those two situations made a big difference, if Liam heard the words 'I love you' from his father or a 'well done' ... he would probably end up like a very decent guy. If William did grow up with a bad mother, he would probably be a very different guy as well. We know that Liam was a nice guy who tried to please his father when he was 16 ... a boy with flaws but not the guy we saw the night he got sired. We never knew much of William, but he was probably not flawless either. We saw some moments of two guys in very different stages of their lives and under very different circumstances.

About their soulled time, we saw a lot more of Angel's time as a soulled vampire. So there was more time for good moments and for bad moments. Both are flawed but both are good men as well. They are in different fases of their lives and they went through different things. They are not much a like, their lives have some big similarities but the situations were very different.

Right now, there are two flawed people who try to fight the good fight and I don't think that we can compare ... both are good men in their own ways. I did vote for Angel/Liam because I think that some people are very hard on Liam, who wasn't a bad man because we saw a bad moment of him.

And of course

Spoiler:

Angel is human now, so you could call him a grown up Liam in the comics. Where he showed some great virtues, like wanting out of a very painful magical state ... not to be free, painless and to walk again, but to help innocents. That's also Liam ... how weird Angel can be at times ... it's one person.

[Pandora's_Box]

Why don't compare soulless Spike and Angel, cause that's precisely what makes Spike a better man, while unsouled, he loved Drusilla and Buffy with all his heart, suffered torture to protect Dawn, griefed over Joyce's death. He learned to love without a soul and that's what makes him one of the better men of the Buffyverse.

[Nina]

Because I don't want judge Angel and Spike on their time as a soulless vampire. Kana brought up the next point in his post:

I once used the example of Kralik and the Gorch brothers. They were a lot worse than Liam as humans but didn't reach his level of notoriety as vampires.

Their time as a soulless vampire doesn't say a lot about how they are as soulled persons. Harmony was everything except likable as a human and Dru was pure, sweet and innocent. Still, Harmony showed more 'goodness' as a vampire.

Besides Angel and Spike are different people, if Spike loves somebody ... he talks about it the whole time and his whole world is about that person ... with Angel it doesn't work that way. Does that mean that Angel doesn't love people or that he cares less about that person? No, Spike's way in not the only way ... there more ways leading to Rome. Spike talked about his relation with Dru like it was some epic romance ... Angelus didn't do that about his relation with Darla. But that doesn't mean that Angelus felt less for Darla than Spike felt for Dru. Angelus and Darla had a very strong connection and cared a lot about eachother.

About Spike's time with a chip; a lion in the zoo is dangerous ... but a wild lion is more dangerous. Comparing a chipped Spike to an unchipped Angelus is not fair. Unchipped Spike was a very evil creature and not a hair better than Angelus ... chipped Spike was forced to join the scoobies to survive, to have people around him. That and his obsession with Buffy, made him do some good things. But he was still an evil vampire, everything he did ... was for Buffy, because of Buffy (How soon did he let Dawn fall in season 6 after Buffy returned?) ... or because he wanted to survive. Nobody said that Angelus was not evil anymore because he killed the beast, or that Harmony was not evil because she comforted Gunn and cared about Cordelia.

Like you see, I'm not a member of the 'there are special vampires' club (Maybe the guy from Why We Fight, but also that one was evil.). I guess that it depends on how you view vampires and the soul. For me, soulless vampires are the evil & twisted versions of the person they once were ... but a very evil vampire could be a very good person. And that's why I don't want to judge the goodness of Angel and Spike on their soulless moments.

[vampmogs]

Yeah the chip pretty much gets ignored in Spike's history even though it did exactly what the Initiative designed it to do... "modify his behaviour." It forced him to be put into situations that he wouldn't have been in without the chip, and forced him to try and keep on the good side of people he'd usually be trying to kill. If he didn't have the chip in his head, could anyone honestly argue he wouldn't continue to try and kill the Scoobies until Buffy just dusted him? I find it hard to stomach that *soulless* Spike can be called one of the better men in the verse? How is he even up there with Gunn, Wes, Xander, Oz, Doyle or yes even Angel when he *doesn’t* feel remorse for any of the people he murdered?

And Spike being able to love doesn't make him any different from another vampire. James and Elizabeth were both able to love, as was Dru and as was Darla. Nor does Spike showing compassion mean he's different from other vampires, or the fact he mourns over Joyce. Harmony mourned over Fred and showed compassion towards Gunn by comforting him as he weeps over his involvement in Fred's death.

In regards to their human selves, William was the better man. Liam was a guy who had loads of potential, he was a fantastic artist, had photographic memory and charisma but he blew it all way with the booze. I do think it was vicious circle with him and his father. Liam states at one point that he did everything he could but it was never enough for his father, which gives me the impression that Liam turned to drinking because he could never please his father. But in doing so he just angered his father more and then it never got better. But William, albeit kinda pathetic as well, chose to stick by his mother at a time she needed him and that's admirable.

In regards to who’s better out of Angel or Spike? I’ll pick Angel. Generally I respect Angel’s view of his past crimes more than Spike. Some prefer Spike’s “get on with it attitude” but I personally enjoy Angel’s need to redeem himself, something Spike says he doesn’t give a piss about. I find Spike’s more crude and heartless and just generally prefer Angel’s outlook more. And really, Angel has a head start on Spike so we have seen a lot more of his character with a soul than Spike. In Angel’s time on his own series he’s turned the cheek on woman who attempted to murder him (Faith) he’s offered to give up his own life so that Darla could have a second chance at her own, he offered up his own life to save all the people before Doyle knocked him out and did it first ,and he gave up his own personal happiness with Buffy because it was unfair to all the people who needed protection. And on Btvs I really respected how he left because he knew how harmful a relationship with a vampire was for Buffy and all the limitations it had for her. He’s a really selfless guy.

And just in general I really enjoy his character. I just watched ‘Couplet’ today and he’s a very caring man. Even though he’s jealous of the Cordy/Groo relationship, he still reassures a sad Groo that he hasn’t made Cordy upset, tries to pretend Groo saved the day for Cordy’s sake when Angel actually did, and gave Cordelia a whole wad of cash he’d been personally saving up so she and Groo can go have a holiday together. Angel was all class throughout that episode, I respected him a lot. And the fact in later episodes he is dignified enough to apologise to Holtz for what happened to his family but still not stand for what Holtz was far better than Spike's "I don't give a piss" attitude to Wood in a very similar situation.

Even Angel’s flaws and faults are magnified to a much greater extent than Spikes. When Angel goes to torture the Wolfram and Hart head of special projects, Linwood, to find out information on how to get Connor back, it’s treated as a major thing because he was a human. But when Spike tortures the doctor for information for the whereabouts of Illyria (we see him wiping the blood off his fingers as well as Spike saying he screamed) it’s just a passing comment. When Angel kills the human Wolfram and Hart solider in ‘Conviction’ a lot of people focus on it, yet Buffy has to remind Spike in ‘Storyteller’ not to kill the students he’s battling because they’re just human. When Wesley shoots Knox and kills him just after Angel talks about protecting humans even as bad as Knox, Spike says “he had it coming.”

Both are good men, both have come a long way but we've seen far more of Angel in his own series and in my opinion due to that, I can only determine that at this point in time he's the better man.

[some spykie ship]

I voted William/Spike. William might have been a little bit of a mama's boy, but he was a gentleman. Liam was always out drinking and whoring (words from the show, so please don't bust me for swearing), and he disrespected his father and took advantage of the servant. Spike was only the second worst vampire recorded. Angel made #1, and not in a good way. Spike sired his mother to take her with him, and he ended up staking her because she tried to molest him. Angel killed his entire family, and admitted that it was to spite his father, who didn't do anything canon but be a father to a troubled guy. With and without a soul, Spike prevented apocalypses. With a soul, Angel got all of L.A. County sent to hell. There is no excuse for that. It wasn't etched in stone what Angel was supposed to do with that vision the PTB gave him.

[vampmogs]

With a soul, Angel got all of L.A. County sent to hell. There is no excuse for that. It wasn't etched in stone what Angel was supposed to do with that vision the PTB gave him.

Isn't that a little unfair? Does that make him any lesser of a man or a bad man? If he'd went ahead knowing that the Senior Partners would sent LA to hell, he'd have never done it. So there was no carelessness on his part, or any malicious intent. He made a mistake, albeit one that had major consequences, but were for the most part unforeseeable to the guy? Can you really judge him on his value as a man because he's made a mistake? Wolfram and Hart did it, not Angel.

He's proven in 'After the Fall' how guilty he feels and how he thinks about nothing else then saving people from the horrible circumstances, as well as making an attempt to make things right. All of which IMO should be things to judge his character on, not a mistake he made where the consequences were unforeseeable? All he knew was that when it was done the Senior Partner’s would do “anything in their power” to punish the team. The ones who raised their hands knowing this, never did he expect they’d do something to the entire population of LA.

And we can't really blame Angel for what Wolfram and Hart chose to do on their own account? Why stop there? Why not blame Angel for every life Wolfram and Hart took in all the time they had plans to turn Angel over to the dark side?

Or for that matter the rest of the team. It was made very clear in 'Power Play' that this was a *team decision.* Angel says "can't do this without you" and "so lets vote as a team." Since this is a discussion about predominately Angel and Spike, one should point out Spike was the *first* to raise his hand for a vote. Not only that but Angel asks them to vote yes if it is "something they believe is worth fighting for." Spike raised his hand, meaning he truly believed in what they were doing just like Angel, why would he be any less guilty? (not that I believe either of them are, Wolfram and Hart are the guilty ones.) It could never have happened without Angel *AND* Spike's involvement.. along with Wes, Gunn, Lorne, Illyria and Lindsey as well.

[Vampire in Rug]

With a soul, Angel got all of L.A. County sent to hell. There is no excuse for that. It wasn't etched in stone what Angel was supposed to do with that vision the PTB gave him.

That would be like blaming Spike for stabbing Ronnie, possibly causing his death in "Beneath You".

LA being sent to hell was something that Angel could not reasonably see coming. Angel didn't know that W&H could do it. And based on thier past actions, he had no reason to believe that they would.

Wolfram and Hart are responsible for sending LA to hell. Not Angel, who not only feels bad anyway, but is trying his hardest to save everyone he comes across.

Even if one disagrees with these points, and feel that the blame for the LA situation lies with Angel, it should be noted that Spike was the first to put up his hand in agreement. Soon as the plan was out of Angel's mouth, Spike was the first on board. Then Wesley, then Gunn and finally Lorne. If Angel deserves any blame, then so does everyone else in that room.

[vampmogs]

Completely agree, one might also add that Angel states "can't order you to do this" pretty much ruling out the "he's the leader it's his fault" argument. And that Spike asks Angel in 'Not Fade Away' if that they make it through will one of them get to be a 'real boy.' That's a pretty good insight into how Spike felt about the plan, as he viewed the Shanshu as a reward, thus believing they'd be rewarded for their plan. Which is pretty telling, if he didn’t believe in what they were doing or consider it a good deed he wouldn’t speculate on being rewarded for something, obviously just like Angel, Spike truly believed in their actions.

[some spykie ship]

Isn't that a little unfair? Does that make him any lesser of a man or a bad man? If he'd went ahead knowing that the Senior Partners would sent LA to hell, he'd have never done it. So there was no carelessness on his part, or any malicious intent. He made a mistake, albeit one that had major consequences, but were for the most part unforeseeable to the guy? Can you really judge him on his value as a man because he's made a mistake? Wolfram and Hart did it, not Angel.

He's proven in 'After the Fall' how guilty he feels and how he thinks about nothing else then saving people from the horrible circumstances, as well as making an attempt to make things right. All of which IMO should be things to judge his character on, not a mistake he made where the consequences were unforeseeable? All he knew was that when it was done the Senior Partner’s would do “anything in their power” to punish the team. The ones who raised their hands knowing this, never did he expect they’d do something to the entire population of LA.

And we can't really blame Angel for what Wolfram and Hart chose to do on their own account? Why stop there? Why not blame Angel for every life Wolfram and Hart took in all the time they had plans to turn Angel over to the dark side?

Or for that matter the rest of the team. It was made very clear in 'Power Play' that this was a *team decision.* Angel says "can't do this without you" and "so lets vote as a team." Since this is a discussion about predominately Angel and Spike, one should point out Spike was the *first* to raise his hand for a vote. Not only that but Angel asks them to vote yes if it is "something they believe is worth fighting for." Spike raised his hand, meaning he truly believed in what they were doing just like Angel, why would he be any less guilty? (not that I believe either of them are, Wolfram and Hart are the guilty ones.) It could never have happened without Angel *AND* Spike's involvement.. along with Wes, Gunn, Lorne, Illyria and Lindsey as well.

Angel always knew what Wolfram & Hart was capable of. Whether he went into the deal alone or with his team, just as much damage would have been done and Angel would have been in league with Wolfram & Hart when it happened. He signed paychecks for their employees, so he was closer to the bad than Angel fans care to admit.

That would be like blaming Spike for stabbing Ronnie, possibly causing his death in "Beneath You".

Spike never signed a contract with Anyanka making him a part of the vengeance gig. He slept with her once, but he didn't have a soul, which makes your comparison uneven at best.

When Spike learned for the first time that he didn't have a "destiny" and Angel did, he shrugged it off and decided to get drunk. If he didn't Shanshu, Spike would have gotten over it. He didn't care about a destiny, and destiny and redemption were the only reasons Angel did anything for the "helpless" after he left Buffy, who, by the way, was his only reason for being anything but crazy homeless guy in the first place. Angel had a soul when he had to be motivated by Buffy to do anything good. Spike didn't need a soul for that. Spike speculated on the reward and, while he might have been pissed if Angel got it, Angel was still the one who spent years looking for ways to get the reward. Spike did something good when he was needed, Angel did something good when he was needed while hoping to get something out of it. If he were a good man, he wouldn't have thought about a reward, especially if a paper in a foreign language was the only source of information on it. It's very possible that Angel is acting suicidal in ATF because his reward is gone, which makes him a child, not a man.