The Final Battle

[Nina]

I let myself a little bit go in another thread, and to make sure that I don't go off topic a new thread.

It was about Buffy and Angel and their destiny. Nile pointed out that Angel was fighting on another level than Buffy with all the gods and powerful forces caring about him. I started to look for all the prophecies and strated asking myself the next questions;

I guess that the big question is; Is the big apocalypse the final battle? And is that the same battle as the one where Buffy is going to end the era of magic? Or is it something different. And is what happens in Atf already the start of the final fight? Did Angel already his thing? Or did Angel something really stupid when he killed Drogyn, the guardian of the deeper well and now all the Old ones are unguarded and can escape ...

also me on the other thread:

"The prophecies all agree that when the final battle is waged, [the Vampire with a Soul] plays a key role."
(Blood Money)

"The Powers That Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the Apocalypse?"
(I Will Remember You)

"Remember the prophecy, Angel? The one that says in the time of the apocalypse, you'd play a major part? How you never knew whether you'd be on the side of good or evil? Well, now you know. Thanks to you, this frail, little Power That Was has just enough strength in her to wipe out your whole species. And it's all on your hands."
Of course, Jasmine played with words, but Angel plays a part in the time of the apocalypse.

"The vampire with the soul is positioned to be a major player in the apocalypse."
Again, the apocalypse, not just an apocalypse ... but the apocalypse.

And we know that there will be a slayer (Buffy!?) who ends the era of magic ... once, at least that's what Fray said. Or the future has been changed somehow.

My guesses; In the last battle, the apoclypse whatever ... the Old Ones come back and want their world back. And somehow, I think that Angel started the apocalypse and Buffy will end it.

[dinamo]

I remember when I heard Jasmine say what you quoted Nina that I did wonder if in the future Angel wouldn't be on the ''good'' side. He might be on the side that is kind of like a Twilight side. A side which isn't from what we've heard so far Evil, but isn't good either. That perhaps he'll play a part but it wont be on the same side as Buffy. I know all the stuff is about the vampire with a soul (at the time pointed to Angel) but since that all came about Spike got himself a soul. How do we know that they hasn't changed things? It seems like it was an unforseen development or else the prophecies would have pointed towards the spectific vampire with a soul that was going to be the one to play a big part. I've never really understood why Angel was so important he's a vampire there is the chance he could be staked or beheaded at anytime, I don't get why the so called powers didn't put their stock in something a bit more stable, with Angel maybe being involved in aiding that person or something.

[Nina]

Well, to be fair .... the most warriors would die if they are beheaded or staked in the heart.

I always thought that it wasn't the vampire that made Angel special for the powers, but his personality. He is far from perfect, but he has the virtues of a great leader and warrior. He is brave, smart, is tactical strong, he can inspire people to fight, has faith in people where nobody believes in, has insight in the enemy, doesn't give up easily, can see the big picture but he is also capable of seeing one helpless soul in a big world.

I did thought about Spike being the vampire with the soul as well. It's possible in the story I guess, maybe it's a 50/50 thing? It's not all one prophecy. And of course;

Spoiler:

If Angel stays human, he must already played his role ... or it was never his role to play.

I know I shouldn't use this as an argument; but as a story it would make sense that Angel is the vampire in question. He is the one for who the prophecies were meant in the first place (in Ats season 1 and 2, there was no soulled Spike) and the leader/hero of the bunch being the one who does is makes more sense than if it's one of the other teammembers. It's the same as with Buffy's role, if it's Faith who ends the era of magic ... it will be cheap. Storywise, it can be Faith or one of the 2000 other slayers, but still ... we all know that it will be Buffy. If anybody can still follow me? It's possible in the story, but it wouldn't feel right.

I do think that Angel can make it worse, but I think that if this is the case ... it's not on purpose. If NFA was about Angel starting the apocalypse ... it wasn't meant to destroy the world, it just went wrong. And I can see this as a possibility. My guesses right now are that he started the whole apocalypse by creating chaos or because he killed Drogyn. And that the Old Ones will return and that Buffy will stop them by taking away all the supernatural powers.

all my own opinion/vision/weird theories.

[Revan]

IMO

Spoiler:

angel is no longer the vampire with a soul. Unless he becomes so again he has played a part. Spike is still. Notice how the prophesies only refer to one vampire with a soul. It's singular. IMO that means spike plays the key role because he is the vampire with a soul. Angel has already played a key role.

Both the vampires with souls will have played a key role. Because they both are vampires with souls. It explains confusion in Ats s5 when there are 2 of them.

[KingofCretins]

Lengthy spoiler discussion of "After the Fall"'s implications on this topic --

Spoiler:

Until shown otherwise, we really can't assume anything other than that the Shanshu has been fulfilled. When we've got two textually established ways for Angel to become human, we should refrain from making up a third or fourth or fifth. He didn't get Mohra blood again, so until shown otherwise, he Shanshu'd, IMO. And that's supportable two ways -- first, "Angel" Season 5 is pretty clear that the big battle was already going on, subtly, and slowly, and that Angel was missing it*. Second, since whatever he signed over to W&H apparently didn't invalidate it, it's safe to infer that it might not even be tied to a big battle after that. So, either A) Season 5 referred to the big battle and established that it is a present event, or B) Angel being human doesn't tell us anything of value at all, because his deal took that condition off the Shanshu.

*spoilers for Season 8 of Buffy --

Spoiler:

It's worth noting that Angel Season 5 is ongoing as Buffy is in the process of organizing the Slayers and doing her unsavory deeds to finance them. Forces, meaning Twilight, is already aligning against her at that point. On the "Angel" side, we hear that the big battle is already moving. If we interpret it that way, that doesn't have to be a coincidence. With the history given in "Fray" and it's connection to Twilight's agenda, it makes sense that what we're seeing in Season 8 is also part of that big battle and that, either Angel is out of it for good, or "After the Fall" will end with them being back in the mix to take part in the fight.

Revan, I think there's a fault in your reasoning --

Spoiler:

unless we're dealing with a heretofore unestablished way for Angel to have become human, he can't simultaneously have become human and *not* be the vampire that the Shanshu prophecy referred to. He can't have played a role that made him human while also not being the vampire that will play a role.

[sueworld]

Spoiler:

Until shown otherwise, we really can't assume anything other than that the Shanshu has been fulfilled.

Why on earth would anyone want to do that? Just because he appears to have turned human, it doesn't altermatically arrive that it was the Shansu. As I and another said on a different thread, it's just in the realms of possibility that it isn't a 'real' Shansu, but a condition that was created by the Wolfram & Hart and which only exists in the environment that they have created around this section of LA.

Until we see the end of AtF I'm not taking anything at face value just yet.

[Revan]

Koc

Spoiler:

no-one said that both prophesies applied to the same vampire. There are two possible vampires that each prophesy could apply to. Maybe more.

[dinamo]

One thing I've been thinking about the Shanshu thing with Wolfram and Hart was it wasn't their ability to give it or take it away. It was more just a test of whether he was really wanting to join the Circle of the Black Thorn. I don't think you can sign away a prophercy doesn't work that way. Like Sahjahn you can try and avaid them but in the end it never works. I think maybe Angel has played his part in THe apocolypse, maybe it wasn't meant to be the final fight, but the fight that kicked it all off that he played his big role in. Collectively it is THE apocolypse, just not as of yet the world ending life or death bit, that bits still to come.

[Nina]

Agreed, I think that the NFA was the first big fight in a gigantic apocalypse. And about signing away prophecies I agree as well. If it was possible to do that, people just signed the stupid/bad prophecies away.

Spoiler:

We know that W&H lost control over the world, according to Wesley; a bigger power is taking over and Drogyn is dead. This sounds like there will be a gigantic change and maybe the first big steps of the apocalypse.

I know that it's too soon to say that Angel is shanshued. But there is a big chance that he is, and there is also a big chance that all the powers were right before ... Angel is the vampire in question. So there is a change that Angel played his prophetic role already and that what happens in LA right now in the comics, is part of the very end.

A good point of the comics is that they can make everything so incredible epic ... like LOTR epic.

[dinamo]

One thing I have also wondered since Connor came onto the scene is that kid is a miracle baby. A child like that doesn't come along for no reason. What if the vampire with a ''soul'' was Darla and her role was keeping him safe and giving birth to him. Maybe she'll continue to appear to him in his life like she did with the Jasmine stuff. I have no idea but I find it odd how this child was created and he wont have some huge role at some point in the future. I know in many ways his role was to do with Jasmine but I find it hard to believe that was his sole purpose. If it was why wasn't he just killed by someone along with Jasmine?

[Nina]

Oh, I like that theory. Connor has the potential to become a great hero. I'm always a little bit confused with Jasmine and her retcon. Did Skip told the truth, is she the reason that Connor is born or is there another reason and did Jasmine just use Connor. The idea behind Connor's birth, is because Angel earned a life in 'The Trial'. But is it enough? Maybe there is more ...

[lara]

I like to think that for the mother of all Apocalypses we will have all the heroes working together to save the world. My guess is that NFA was some kind of beginning for it and eventually the story of Buffy will catch up with Angel's and then they'll have to face the real apocalypse.

I like the idea of Connor as a hero too because, well he's a special baby, and I don't think he was born just to fathered Jasmine, I think there's something else there that is yet to be revealed. Plus, he's Angel's son, come on, he can be any less.

[vampmogs]

The signing way of the Shanshu, IMO doesn't work 'mechanically' and was more to serve the purpose of showing Angel was willing to give up his own hopes and dreams for what he deemed the greater good for humanity in general. The mechanics, IMO, don't make a great deal of sense. If you could simply sign away your involvement in a prophecy, Angel and Giles would have handed over the prophecy to Buffy in 'Prophecy Girl' and asked her to sign herself away from it, thus denouncing any involvement she had in it and the Master’s apparent victory over her. Can’t be that simple.

As long as Angel thinks it works, it still works thematically, but realistically in and in line with other prophecies in the verse, it doesn’t make sense you could simply sign away you candidacy.

Which probably explains why Angel believes Wolfram and Hart was responsible for making him human. Angel thinks he signed away any chances of the Shanshu, and probably deep down believes if he were going to become human it’d be by doing something great and not in the epic sense but in the ‘beneficial sense.’ Clearly sending LA to Hell wasn’t one of those things. Seeing as how Angel views his vampirism as being ‘damned’ and humanity as a gift and something that needs to be ‘deserved’ I think without even realising it he’s automatically only applied positive outcomes with achieving a Shanshu, without taking a step back and realising to fulfil the Shanshu all he has to do is be a major player in the apocalypse, good or bad. Fighting Wolfram and Hart with LA being put into a hell dimension, therefore qualifies him, even if Angel hasn’t considered that yet.

What I probably disagree with King is that we’ve only been presented with two options in the story as to how a vampire can become human. I think we’ve been presented with three. The third is Angel bringing up in ‘After the Fall’ that he believes Wolfram and Hart did this to him. Which isn’t so crazy, after all they had the power to not only bring Darla back from Hell but as Wesley states, intentionally brought her back as human in order to have any chances of control over, which were completely thrown out the window, as we saw, when she became a vampire again. They’ve displayed the power to make a vampire human again, which shows Angel’s theory can’t be ruled out.

Though I hope Angel’s wrong and he did achieve Shanshu. Narratively I think it makes sense for it to be his, ever since Buffy season 1 it’s been a part of his journey, that longing sense to become human. Darla states it in ‘Angel’ and in a cut scene from ‘Prophecy Girl’ the Anointed One says it as he comes to Angel’s apartment. It was the reason Angel couldn’t be with Buffy and ultimately had to leave, as Cordy calls her, "the love of his life," it was the reason he couldn’t be with Connor, he was ashamed of being a vampire, it was his chance to have the light at the end of the tunnel. It’s *always* been a part of his story, it’d be just crappy for someone else to get it when it’s never been a factor for them until they want it only because they don’t want someone else to get it. And within the context of the story it works, Angel was drawn to the Shanshu in ‘Blind Date’ without knowing why, and is also the vampire with a soul every other prophecy has referred to. As well as being noticed by the PTB and chosen to be their champion and having his destiny which was being the vamp with a pivitol role in Las Vegas.

And just because the bitter irony. It's something Angel's always wanted... but now he's in hell. And we know there's only a few things Angel wants... Connor, Buffy, Cordelia, a family, to be human... and to help the helpless. He's now having trouble doing that as a human, and that's great storytelling.