Caleb vs. Hamilton

[Nikkolas]

Well, the two seem quite alike in a few ways:
-both are endowed with their power by beyond physical entities with Caleb's power being The First and Hamilton's being the Senior Partners.
-both were absurdly above the heroes to the effect they could smack them around or get hit by them to no effect.

But...which one was actually stronger and got more power? You'd think the one endowed with the energies of the origin of everything evil would be more powerful but who knows.

Then of course which one did you like more?

[Pandora's_Box]

It's good that I'm the first one to talk of it. Cause I'm sure people are gonna say: "It's obvious, Angel could smack Caleb down with one fist which had no effect on Hamilton until he drank his blood".
But Angel putting Caleb down is a big Gimme a break factor imo. It was just a way to introduce Angel as the great hero we missed. But no way Angel could, with his force, do what he did to Caleb. So please don't go that way.

I also think Hamilton beating the sh** out of Illarya was too much to believe as well.

All that being said, I guess Hamilton is more powerful from what we saw. Until Angel drank his blood, he seemed unvulnerable which is more that Caleb could say.
But Hamilton's strenght has been way exagerated, cause no way The Seniors partners could have more strenght to embue than The First.

To answer the last question, Hamilton was a bit dumb and static, Caleb was vicious yet classy. I love Caleb!!

[Nina]

I like Hamilton more, he was creepy because he was a monster who behaved like a very polite man who knew everything. Somehow, that gives me the creeps. Besides, his place in the story made more sense to me that what Caleb was doing. And I don't like the evil priest thing, it's such a stupid stereotype.

And Hamilton was stronger, he had the power of W&H in his veins ...

[dinamo]

I don't believe Illyria has been resurrected before or else she'd have known about the humans and so on. I think she just meant her guide before Knox was taller, not anything about having another human guide who was taller.

In terms of Hamilton vs Caleb, if you mean the Caleb we first saw who trashed the group then he'd be a match for Hamilton. It could go either way, but Hamilton would sustain longer as he didn't need to be powered up like Caleb. If you mean the Caleb who was made weaker by the writers because they realised Buffy could never beat him like he was at the start then Hamilton would trash him.

[NileQT87]

illyria did know about humans. humans were around before the last pure demons were kicked out. illyria talks about vampires stinking of humanity... which might mean illyria popped up AFTER the pure demons were kicked out, because pure vampires wouldn't have ever stunk of humanity--"the ooze that eats itself"--illyria and some of its cohorts saw vampires and humanity as being alike.

and being that "the last demon to leave the dimension" was the vampire one, that also means that illyria's prior death among rivals happened before this incident with the demons getting kicked out.

i don't think illyria would have had a qwa'ha xahn when it was ruler of its kingdom. qwa'hasans were guides during illyria's various escape attempts--to introduce it to the new world. just this time, humans had completely obliterated the demon powers.

[dinamo]

I'm sorry I wasn't very clear on what I meant about the humans. I know she knew about them I meant what she said to Wesley about them being everywhere and growing bold. If she'd been resurrected before I think she'd have known about them being everywhere. Also I think she'd have known her army was gone as well. Plus if she'd have done this before they'd have known how to stop it, or it would have been mentioned as to how she was dealt with the last time she did it. I think her Qwa'ha Xahn may have been anything she needed them to be. Priest, servant, guide Knox said all those things. She could well have had them when she ruled to tell her about what was going on in her kingdon and so on. It's not impossible.

[lee]

Id definetly say Caleb. Well, they are both extremly tough, but
i just found Caleb a thousand times more interesting than *Hamilton*
who was just a big donkey in a suit. What a crap character.
Yeah, Caleb would knock hamilton out.

[Nikkolas]

see the first evil as perhaps an old one who has been banished between dimensions ? la sahjhan and illyria's discussion of nightmares (which used to walk among us). we know mesektet personally used to do some banishing (and personally did sahjhan)--or rather "we", which might insinuate she and the senior partners were pretty darn close

And here I thought The First Evil was what they said: the origin of the concept of evil and specifically not a demon like the Old Ones.

[NileQT87]

the interesting thing about that--from what we've seen of gods... jasmine (who is frequently referred to as a god--even goes as far to comment on the fact that everyone keeps saying that) is beyond good or evil. glorificus, also a god, is a hellgod, rather than a power that be like jasmine. glory definitely is proud evil, but is that because of the hellgod thing? jasmine definitely didn't think of herself as evil.

and the first evil said "i'm not a demon, little girl", but a lot of the old ones we heard about or met also seemed to differentiate between demons and pure demons as being different. anya saw demons and pure demons as being "different". illyria, who specifically was an old one = pure demon, often called itself a "god king" and basically saw vampires as humans rather than kin. illyria had a god complex, when it was only a pure demon.

if illyria calls itself a god, there's a good chance that other pure demons have a habit of differentiating themselves from demons by upping themselves to god status. if going by jasmine's belief that she isn't good or evil--and glorificus, while more honestly evil in the sense that her dimension is considered hellish, also was more worship and power-hungry like jasmine than straight out "evil". the first evil, if it were a god, is still incorporeal--a state it doesn't want to be in. also--the first evil's real form is pretty large demon-like.

the first evil could very well be the first being that actually saw itself as evil. i think gods are beyond good and evil the way jasmine is. gods probably came before the first evil. and if you use christianity's ideas on god and evil... the fallen angel, lucifer a.k.a. the devil was the first demon--and lucifer's big sin was pride. some food for thought on the idea that the first evil might have been the first pure demon.

jasmine says she was "forged in the inferno of creation"--which means she, and probably all the gods, predate demonkind. "inferno" is italian for "hell", but she seems to honestly believe she's a savior of humanity and fighting evil (wolfram & hart).

[dinamo]

You know I never really ''got'' Hamilton. I understood what Caleb's purpose was it was to do the physical stuff the first itself couldn't do. I know Hamilton was kind of in this role. But I'd have preferred to see it be Eve, or even Lilah who had that kind of power. Someone you didn't expect who comes along and smashes you to pieces. It would have been more of a shock if Hamilton hadn't been powerful considering his size and stature. In some ways its the slayers greatest weapon that she looks like a meek young woman and not some wrecking machine man. Same goes in a way for Glory and Illyria, you wouldn't look at them and think them capable of sending someone flying, (like Glory did to Buffy when they first met, and Illyria to Harmony) but Hamilton when I saw him I didn't exectly think he was going to just be a gentle kindly man.

[NileQT87]

there was a reason hamilton wasn't like eve. he even stated that he wasn't going to be a little girl making love to angel on that (or behind the) couch. i think the senior partners picked hamilton for a reason. he was a powerful being with conviction, no nonsense and could scare people into place. he was imposing on purpose because they wanted the anti-eve, since eve turned out to be a failure when she found love with lindsey. hamilton wouldn't get sidetracked from his job the way eve did. hamilton was also a more brutal bastard on purpose. again, unlike eve, who was pretty much just a meek little immortal with a tendency to act like more of a girl than she actually was, hamilton, once given the senior partner's power in his blood, was willing to use it to put fear in everyone.

caleb had a weakness with needing to get recharged. hamilton had a weakness in that he made a slip of the tongue about where his power was to a vampire. if caleb fought hamilton, caleb wouldn't really find it all that useful if hamilton had made that same slip of the tongue. hamilton would only have to get caleb at a moment he was running out of temporary power. caleb was all physical strength--he could toss powerless girls, buffy and spike without breaking stride, but hamilton was putting his fist through a man and beating up illyria--who was stronger than angel even depowered. caleb might have had trouble taking on a depowered illyria, much less hamilton. hamilton's weakness didn't really mean anything to those fighting him outside of vampires. caleb wouldn't really have any use for that information even if he had it.

[Nikkolas]

A god being beyond good and evil is something not presented in the show. An intriguing idea and true for some fictional worlds but Glory and the others are very "humanized". They have likes, dislikes, personality that we humans can very much understand. There is no holer-than-thou going on with their showing some ultra-enlightened wisdom that is above humanity's understanding.

Glory is from a place of "unspeakable torment" and as far as we humans or any animal are concerned, needless slaughter and pain is a very evil thing to do. Evil of course was born from The First.

[dinamo]

there was a reason hamilton wasn't like eve. he even stated that he wasn't going to be a little girl making love to angel on that (or behind the) couch. i think the senior partners picked hamilton for a reason. he was a powerful being with conviction, no nonsense and could scare people into place. he was imposing on purpose because they wanted the anti-eve, since eve turned out to be a failure when she found love with lindsey. hamilton wouldn't get sidetracked from his job the way eve did. hamilton was also a more brutal bastard on purpose. again, unlike eve, who was pretty much just a meek little immortal with a tendency to act like more of a girl than she actually was, hamilton, once given the senior partner's power in his blood, was willing to use it to put fear in everyone.

This is sort of what I've been wondering as well, if Eve had been given physical power like Hamilton had, would she have gone down the path she did. She had nothing to fall back on, she was just a pretty immortal face. If she'd have had physical power things may have been different. It's why I wondered why Lilah was never given physical powers, she had a brain add that with huge amounts of physical power as well as her position at Wolfram and Hart she would have been migty scary to deal with. That would have been a villian I'd have liked to have seen.

[Nina]

I always had the idea, that when Eve 'failed', they did send Hamilton ... because he isn't just an employee, he is part of the Circle of the Black Thorn. He is one of their top demons/warriors, and they probably did send him instead of Eve v2.0, because Angel started to be difficult after You're Welcome.

[Nikkolas]

Kinda OTbut still relating to Caleb. The First says "You're the only man strong enough to be my vessel."

Now as far as we're aware, he's just a human being. Is it wrong then to interpret what The First meant was that he's the only thing in the world strong enough in hate and malevolence to be its host?

That's pretty amazing.

[Raven]

I have to agree, Nikkolas, I think, and have always thought, that that's EXACTLY what The First meant. Were Evil itself to become physical, it would need a host, apparently, and that host turned out to be Caleb. Not saying Caleb was all powerful, but that he was so corrupted that he saw beyond good and evil, so if The First inhabited him, he could still see the big picture, whatever that might have been. Just my thoughts anyways.

[dinamo]

For me Caleb had something going for him that Hamilton never possessed. He believed totally and completely in what he was doing. Hamilton wasn't much else other than raw physical power, Caleb was much more. He would have been scary without any powers purely because he was so warped. Hamilton could have passed as normal. Caleb was more threatening in some ways particularly early on because you believed he'd keep going, keep fighting, never stop because he thought he was 100% correct. I always thought in that final fight if Hamilton could have run he may have, Caleb got up after being gutted and wanted to keep going.