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  • Bangel Bashers

    Well all the other hate clubs got started up again so why not this one

    Its no secret I am not a Bangel fan. Quite simply, I think they ruin each others characters, and apart I love them both. Together.... Plus there is the ick factor of Angel going after a non-legal teenaged girl.

    So who wants to start with their reasons for disliking Bangel?

  • #2
    Count me in, Beck!

    To get the discussion going, I'm gonna list my top 3 worst moments in the Bangel relationship:

    1. Number One of course goes to the horrible and cruel (on Angel's part) break-up scene in The Prom. You can tell a lot about a relationship from the way it ends and the way Angel broke up with Buffy was so typical of Bangel that it hurts. Once again it's the big man who knows everything better than the little naive woman, who decides for her without even asking her what she thinks. The way Angel broke up with Buffy is disgusting and it pisses me off a great deal!

    2. Angel biting Buffy to save his own sorry ass in Graduation Day Part I. I know a lot of Bangel shippers think this scene is sexy and shows how deep Buffy's love for Angel is but this is just bullocks. Angel was extremely selfish in this scene, he used Buffy to save himself. Yes I know she "made" him do it but he should have been strong enough to resist, to not bite the woman he claims to love. From a feminist point of view, this scene just makes me sick. It's the woman sacrificing herself for her man, not thinking about her own well-being, only thinking of his.

    3. Angel again deciding without asking Buffy in the schmaltz-fest that is I Will Remember You. It's Angel's MO in the Bangel relationship all over again. Him being patronising, arrogant and condescending once again is just horrible to watch.

    Okay those are my top three I think but there are of course many more examples of why Bangel is not the way to go.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Cori View Post
      3. Angel again deciding without asking Buffy in the schmaltz-fest that is I Will Remember You. It's Angel's MO in the Bangel relationship all over again. Him being patronising, arrogant and condescending once again is just horrible to watch.
      Lol, "schmaltz-fest" is definitely one way to describe it--I can barely stand IWRY, and I actually do like Bangel for seasons 1-3 of Buffy (but ONLY 1-3--I don't like all the "Bangel 4 eva!" stuff, Buffy and Angel both MOVE ON, and that's natural--I say let every ship have its proper time and place!

      But in IWRY....well most of the time Buffy and Angel just bicker , back and forth at each other, which drove me crazy! Even after Angel becomes human, they're still arguing about whether they should spend some time apart or not at first...sheesh! Then there's the fact that the whole episode is pretty much pointless, or a waste of time--with it endingt where it began. Basically it seems the whole thing is meant as "Bangel in a nutshell for those of you kids at home who didn't watch Buffy"--whcih I think is very unecessary, especially considering how little Buffy is on Angel--after Sanctuary I think she's barely mentioned until the end of season 2--then after Fredless, she's REALLY barely mentioned ever--so why was the whoel YWRY excercise necessary? But yeah, between the bickering and the fact that the whole episode doesn't happen in the end, literally doesn't advance the plot at all, this is definitely one of my lesser liked episodes....
      Promise that you'll return to me.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Cori View Post
        Once again it's the big man who knows everything better than the little naive woman, who decides for her without even asking her what she thinks. The way Angel broke up with Buffy is disgusting and it pisses me off a great deal!

        I can sort of agree here. Just breaking her heart suddenly like that was cruel... But probably what bugs most is the "I know what is better for you" kind of attitude. Paradoxically if he had said "I want to break up because *I* feel it's the best thing for *me*, because *I* do not want to be in a relationship anymore", maybe it would have seemed less... arrogant. May I ask you something Cori ? If Angel had discussed it more deeply with Buffy instead of deciding right away, if he had told her that her mom had tried to convince him to leave, would that have made a difference for you ?

        Angel biting Buffy to save his own sorry ass in Graduation Day Part I. I know a lot of Bangel shippers think this scene is sexy and shows how deep Buffy's love for Angel is but this is just bullocks. Angel was extremely selfish in this scene, he used Buffy to save himself. Yes I know she "made" him do it but he should have been strong enough to resist, to not bite the woman he claims to love. From a feminist point of view, this scene just makes me sick. It's the woman sacrificing herself for her man, not thinking about her own well-being, only thinking of his.

        Ok, I'll take a risk here... but I do want to say this. First of all, I don't find this scene sexy. I could see it as a huge proof of love from Buffy's part, and I won't deny I wish I had a girlfriend who loved me that much, but I wouldn't say it's sexy. And I can also see your feminist point. But on Angel's defense I just want to say this: I don't think he truly realized what was happening. He was totally delirious, he didn't even recognize Willow. He couldn't tell what was real from what was an illusion. If your mind is confused and cannot distinguish the reality around you, you cannot make the right choices either. That's why I have a tendency to cut him some slack here. If he had been 100% in control of his mind though, then I'd say you are perfectly right.

        Angel again deciding without asking Buffy in the schmaltz-fest that is I Will Remember You. It's Angel's MO in the Bangel relationship all over again. Him being patronising, arrogant and condescending once again is just horrible to watch.
        See point 1 I can sort of agree here, though I admit I do like IWRY. And I believe Angel didn't mean to do something to hurt Buffy. He gave up happiness so that she could live, and didn't gain anything for himself. But maybe he should have considered that it was not his choice to make. If Buffy would have wanted to have a shorter, but happier life, instead of a longer, but darker one, it would have been her right to choose that. So I'll say that instead of asking the PTB to change him back, he should have asked her first I hope I haven't infuriated you too much

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Vyse
          I can sort of agree here. Just breaking her heart suddenly like that was cruel... But probably what bugs most is the "I know what is better for you" kind of attitude. Paradoxically if he had said "I want to break up because *I* feel it's the best thing for *me*, because *I* do not want to be in a relationship anymore", maybe it would have seemed less... arrogant. May I ask you something Cori ? If Angel had discussed it more deeply with Buffy instead of deciding right away, if he had told her that her mom had tried to convince him to leave, would that have made a difference for you ?
          Yes of course that would have made a world of difference to me. It would have shown that Buffy and Angel are actually in an equal relationship where they discuss things concerning their mutual relationship together, as a couple, as it should be. But no, of course Angel thinks he is so much wiser just because he is older and just decides for them both, thereby robbing Buffy of the right to choose. I hate men who choose for their girlfriends/wives without even considering the fact that they might want to choose for themselves. So yes, if Angel had had an honest conversation with Buffy about this, I would have a higher opinion of him. Even if they had broken up in the end anyway, at least it would have been something that they both decided on.

          Originally posted by Vyse
          Ok, I'll take a risk here... but I do want to say this. First of all, I don't find this scene sexy. I could see it as a huge proof of love from Buffy's part, and I won't deny I wish I had a girlfriend who loved me that much, but I wouldn't say it's sexy. And I can also see your feminist point. But on Angel's defense I just want to say this: I don't think he truly realized what was happening. He was totally delirious, he didn't even recognize Willow. He couldn't tell what was real from what was an illusion. If your mind is confused and cannot distinguish the reality around you, you cannot make the right choices either. That's why I have a tendency to cut him some slack here. If he had been 100% in control of his mind though, then I'd say you are perfectly right.
          Well I guess most people find the whole vampires biting thing sexy and mostly I do too but not in this scene. In this scene, I find the power balance in the Bangel relationship once again deeply disturbing. And yeah Angel might have been delirious and confused but I still think that he subconsciously realised that it was Buffy whom he was biting, his girlfriend, the woman he claimed to love. Sorry but no, I can't excuse that.

          Originally posted by Vyse
          See point 1 I can sort of agree here, though I admit I do like IWRY. And I believe Angel didn't mean to do something to hurt Buffy. He gave up happiness so that she could live, and didn't gain anything for himself. But maybe he should have considered that it was not his choice to make. If Buffy would have wanted to have a shorter, but happier life, instead of a longer, but darker one, it would have been her right to choose that. So I'll say that instead of asking the PTB to change him back, he should have asked her first I hope I haven't infuriated you too much
          Not at all, hon, I love debating BTVS with you again! Yes Angel did not mean to hurt Buffy by making this decision but he never even considered the possibility that she might choose differently (or maybe he did and it scared the crap out of him, which is why he didn't even ask her, I don't know). That's what pisses me off so much, that he doesn't give her the right to choose yet again. Angel deciding important stuff in their relationship over Buffy's head is one of the many reasons why I find Bangel to be such an un-feminist relationship.

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          • #6
            Can I just say that Angel hasn't always been the most dominant one in the relationship? He wants to sacrifice himself in The Zeppo for the good of the world but Buffy refuses for him to do so, she clearly was the most dominant here.

            Furthermore isn't Angel wiser than Buffy? Doesn't he know a lot more than her? I'm sorry Buffy is my fave character but this is true and Angel shouldn't act dumber than he is because as a woman in this instance Buffy doesn't have as much life experience as him. Spike plays the same card in Touched stating that he has seen a lot more than her and has been around a lot longer than her basically in an attempt for her to shut up and listen to what he has to say.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              Can I just say that Angel hasn't always been the most dominant one in the relationship? He wants to sacrifice himself in The Zeppo for the good of the world but Buffy refuses for him to do so, she clearly was the most dominant here.
              Well Angel was not always the dominant one but most of the times. There was an unhealthy balance in Bangel when it comes to power and the few times that Buffy actually was the dominant one don't cancel out all the other times that Angel has dominated the relationship.

              Furthermore isn't Angel wiser than Buffy? Doesn't he know a lot more than her? I'm sorry Buffy is my fave character but this is true and Angel shouldn't act dumber than he is because as a woman in this instance Buffy doesn't have as much life experience as him. Spike plays the same card in Touched stating that he has seen a lot more than her and has been around a lot longer than her basically in an attempt for her to shut up and listen to what he has to say.
              Angel (and Spike for that matter) may be older and have experienced more but that doesn't give him the right to simply brush over Buffy's opinions or views and not even give her the chance to utter them. It's all about the right to choose and that's what Angel took away from Buffy! And yes Spike tells Buffy to shut up and listen to him but Spike almost always respected Buffy's choices (apart from the AR but that's another matter) and didn't just decide things for her.

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              • #8
                For the most part i dont mide Bangel that much. I do have afew problems with the pairing like the age problem where Angel initiates a relationship with a 16 year old when he is 240. In the real world a 21 year old would go to jail for having sex with a minor. My only other problem is sometimes i found the relationship was a touch to melodramatic at times.

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                • #9
                  Bangel was fine for what it was, but I was very glad it ended. Angel was actually able to become his own character once he left. For that I am forever grateful. I just hated that every time he showed up after S4 he and Buffy had do go into their whole kiss eachother thing. I thought it was demeaning as hell to his character. Especially in Chosen, WOW I hate that scene.

                  As for the breakup, I think it was poorly timed, but he wasn't wrong. He knew that at the end of the day, it was not a healthy thing for her, and he was right. He knew Buffy would have chosen to be with him, because she couldn't see anything else.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cori View Post
                    Well I guess most people find the whole vampires biting thing sexy and mostly I do too but not in this scene. In this scene, I find the power balance in the Bangel relationship once again deeply disturbing. And yeah Angel might have been delirious and confused but I still think that he subconsciously realised that it was Buffy whom he was biting, his girlfriend, the woman he claimed to love. Sorry but no, I can't excuse that.
                    That's a very severe judgment... Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are wrong about it. And I wasn't asking you to excuse it. I guess I kind of believe he was in good faith, while you do not. Or maybe I'm just trying to take his side because I'm a guy as well ? I guess I can't rule out that kind of bias either...


                    he never even considered the possibility that she might choose differently (or maybe he did and it scared the crap out of him, which is why he didn't even ask her, I don't know). That's what pisses me off so much, that he doesn't give her the right to choose yet again. Angel deciding important stuff in their relationship over Buffy's head is one of the many reasons why I find Bangel to be such an un-feminist relationship.

                    I never thought about that, honestly... why should he be scared about Buffy not choosing like he would ? Just because he'd lose control of the relationship ?

                    And about the un-feminist thing... may I ask you something hon ? I know it could be seen as provocative, but I have no idea how else to say it. If the situation was reversed, what would you say about it ? You'd still condemn it ? If you allow me, Spuffy was the other way around (at least in S6, IMO), but to be honest I thought Buffy was being unfair to Spike (forget the AR right now... that deserves its own debate).

                    As a side note: what does schmaltz-fest mean exactly ? LOL

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                    • #11
                      Spuffy was the un-feminist relationship. Buffy/Angel was just cheesy and 'un-earned' by the storytelling.

                      I think it's a complete cop-out to argue that Angel didn't make a conscious choice to feed on Buffy to his save his life. It wasn't even a minute before that when he was telling her he would *not* do that. He was completely lucid, and knew the consequences of his decision. He made the decision to take a chance on Buffy's life.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cori View Post
                        Well Angel was not always the dominant one but most of the times. There was an unhealthy balance in Bangel when it comes to power and the few times that Buffy actually was the dominant one don't cancel out all the other times that Angel has dominated the relationship.
                        But Angel's dominated Buffys? Sorry I just don't really see the logic if there is evidence of both of them being dominant over each other I really don't see the problem. I think it is very unrealistic in a relationship for the balance of power to be equally shared between both partners. Willow clearly was the more dominant in Tillow, Xander in Xanya and Buffy to some extent in Spuffy. I don't think Buffy should always be the more dominant in the relationship, especially when she was more dominant in both Ruffy and to some extent Spuffy.


                        Angel (and Spike for that matter) may be older and have experienced more but that doesn't give him the right to simply brush over Buffy's opinions or views and not even give her the chance to utter them. It's all about the right to choose and that's what Angel took away from Buffy! And yes Spike tells Buffy to shut up and listen to him but Spike almost always respected Buffy's choices (apart from the AR but that's another matter) and didn't just decide things for her.
                        When did Angel ever brush over Buffy's views and not give her a chance to utter what she felt? She was given a chance to speak her peace in their break-up scene. Why is it only Buffy who can decide when to end the relationship, for that matter many relationships aren't ended on agreement; some end by one party choosing they no longer want to be in the relationship. Angel believed it was unfair to Buffy, Buffy later concedes he was right in the long run someone just had to speak up and say it. Because Angel feels he would be unfair to Buffy he no longer wants to be with her.

                        Buffy: "You don't want to be with me?"

                        Angel: "I don't."
                        This is perfectly within Angel's right to do this, just as it would have been perfectly fine for Buffy to do the same thing.

                        Buffy told Spike to leave her alone how many times and he persisted in following her until he got her in the sack? I wouldn't say that was respecting her decisions. I'm not going to go into Spuffy a great deal though because this thread should more or less stay about Bangel.

                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                        Spuffy was the un-feminist relationship. Buffy/Angel was just cheesy and 'un-earned' by the storytelling.
                        In what ways do you feel it was un-earned by the storytelling? I'm confused as to what you mean by this?

                        I think it's a complete cop-out to argue that Angel didn't make a conscious choice to feed on Buffy to his save his life. It wasn't even a minute before that when he was telling her he would *not* do that. He was completely lucid, and knew the consequences of his decision. He made the decision to take a chance on Buffy's life.
                        Lol I'm so tempted to start my rant again but I won't, damn you Dan!

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                        • #13
                          In what ways do you feel it was un-earned by the storytelling? I'm confused as to what you mean by this?
                          I agree with everything you said before this, but I think what he means is that there was no realistic process of beginning to love either person, it was "gorgeous, in an annoying way" to kisses in the graveyard and "true love." I think KoC said this earlier, it was the kind of relationship with nothing behind it - the people who are in love because the script says so. They display emotions that we can't relate to because they're not realistic, there's no cause for them. There was no particular reason displayed in the show as to why Buffy fell in love with Angel. She went from yelling at him (Prophecy Girl) to crying on his shoulder (When She Was Bad) and there's no explanation for this sudden trust.
                          Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
                          Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by redrevo View Post
                            I agree with everything you said before this, but I think what he means is that there was no realistic process of beginning to love either person, it was "gorgeous, in an annoying way" to kisses in the graveyard and "true love." I think KoC said this earlier, it was the kind of relationship with nothing behind it - the people who are in love because the script says so. They display emotions that we can't relate to because they're not realistic, there's no cause for them. There was no particular reason displayed in the show as to why Buffy fell in love with Angel. She went from yelling at him (Prophecy Girl) to crying on his shoulder (When She Was Bad) and there's no explanation for this sudden trust.
                            Buffy has always been attracted to dark and dangerous guys, so it makes sense to me that there was an instant connection with Angel. Besides it started off with her finding him hot, do we need anything else but that it is how many relationships start? Angel also states that he found the women in his time boring, Buffy was anything but boring and he states he could see her heart the first time he ever met her, I think that's a good enough reason.

                            I'm not a super big fan of Bangel, I find it very mushy as well but I thought there was enough grounds to make it realistic.. well as realistic as a relationship between a vampire and a vampire slayer can be.

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                            • #15
                              Sorry for the late reply, Flavio, I was quite busy these last few days.

                              Originally posted by Vyse View Post
                              That's a very severe judgment... Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are wrong about it. And I wasn't asking you to excuse it. I guess I kind of believe he was in good faith, while you do not. Or maybe I'm just trying to take his side because I'm a guy as well ? I guess I can't rule out that kind of bias either...
                              Well that's how it came across to me. I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right, that's just how I choose to interpret that particular scene.

                              I never thought about that, honestly... why should he be scared about Buffy not choosing like he would ? Just because he'd lose control of the relationship ?
                              Yes precisely! Angel is a bit of a control freak IMO (but then again so is Buffy), well I guess he has to be what with Angelus always lurking in the back of his mind.

                              And about the un-feminist thing... may I ask you something hon ? I know it could be seen as provocative, but I have no idea how else to say it. If the situation was reversed, what would you say about it ? You'd still condemn it ? If you allow me, Spuffy was the other way around (at least in S6, IMO), but to be honest I thought Buffy was being unfair to Spike (forget the AR right now... that deserves its own debate).
                              Hehe you know me too well, hon! You are right, I would have less problems if it were the other way around because it would be the woman making a choice and not the man deciding for the woman. And yes Spuffy season 6 was a very unequal relationship in the sense that the woman (Buffy) pretty much had all the power (apart from AR but you are right, that's a whole other debate) while the man (Spike) was pretty much at her mercy. Which is why I'm so glad that Spuffy did not end after season 6 but that we got the beautiful development of their relationship in season 7, where an unequal relationship was turned into an equal one, one that I can honestly call a feminist relationship with no partner dominating the other.

                              Ooops sorry, I got a bit off-topic. But the lameness of Bangel always makes me appreciate Spuffy so much more!

                              As a side note: what does schmaltz-fest mean exactly ? LOL
                              Well in my interpretation, it means something that is extremely kitschy, cheesy and sentimental, which are actually the three adjectives I would use to describe Bangel as a whole.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Cori View Post
                                Yes precisely! Angel is a bit of a control freak IMO (but then again so is Buffy), well I guess he has to be what with Angelus always lurking in the back of his mind.
                                I don't believe this was ever about controlling Buffy, if he wanted to control her he would have stuck around and done just that.

                                Hehe you know me too well, hon! You are right, I would have less problems if it were the other way around because it would be the woman making a choice and not the man deciding for the woman.
                                That is where I get slightly irritated by feminist views. The way I understand it feminists wanted to make women strong, they didn't believe they were seen as equal in our society. However, this seems more like women should be more dominant over men rather than equal and that is something I don't support. Why should we males be subjected to this but it isn't alright for a male to make the decision for a woman? I kind of find that rather offensive.

                                And yes Spuffy season 6 was a very unequal relationship in the sense that the woman (Buffy) pretty much had all the power (apart from AR but you are right, that's a whole other debate) while the man (Spike) was pretty much at her mercy.
                                Have to disagree there, they were both using each other but Spike did his fair share of manipulation over Buffy that could constitute any argument that he was the one in power.

                                Which is why I'm so glad that Spuffy did not end after season 6 but that we got the beautiful development of their relationship in season 7, where an unequal relationship was turned into an equal one, one that I can honestly call a feminist relationship with no partner dominating the other.
                                How was Spuffy any more equal in Bangel? Season seven was basically about a heirachy, a position of power and the only time anyone ever became equal was only explored through the potentials. Buffy was far more dominant in Spike during s7 than he was of her, I never saw either of them on equal ground.

                                Well in my interpretation, it means something that is extremely kitschy, cheesy and sentimental, which are actually the three adjectives I would use to describe Bangel as a whole.
                                What about the Angelus arc? Would add in excitement, horror, suspense, sorrow, anger and guilt in there too.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                  That is where I get slightly irritated by feminist views. The way I understand it feminists wanted to make women strong, they didn't believe they were seen as equal in our society. However, this seems more like women should be more dominant over men rather than equal and that is something I don't support. Why should we males be subjected to this but it isn't alright for a male to make the decision for a woman? I kind of find that rather offensive.
                                  I think you misunderstood me here, Adam. I said that I would have less problems with the situation if it was the other way around (the woman dominating the man), I didn't say it was right. In fact, I called such a relationship unequal and an unequal relationship is not feminist for me. I know it might be for some feminists but not for me. I don't believe that the woman having all the power is better than the man having all the power. The relationship should be between equal partners and IMO Bangel was never that, Angel almost always had the upper hand.

                                  Have to disagree there, they were both using each other but Spike did his fair share of manipulation over Buffy that could constitute any argument that he was the one in power.
                                  We will just have to agree to disagree on this because I really didn't see it like this at all. Buffy used Spike to make herself feel better, knowing very well how he was feeling about her, which IMO makes her very much be in a position of power.

                                  How was Spuffy any more equal in Bangel? Season seven was basically about a heirachy, a position of power and the only time anyone ever became equal was only explored through the potentials. Buffy was far more dominant in Spike during s7 than he was of her, I never saw either of them on equal ground.
                                  Spike always respected Buffy's views and opinions in season 7, something I never felt in the Bangel relationship. Spike supported and helped Buffy in season 7 that is true, but Buffy relied on Spike just as much. I think Giles even said something like this in First Date (can't remember the exact words right now). You might not see it this way but s7 Spuffy was the one relationship in Buffy's life that I felt most comfortable with, a relationship of giving and taking by both partners.

                                  What about the Angelus arc? Would add in excitement, horror, suspense, sorrow, anger and guilt in there too.
                                  Well yeah but everybody is always saying how Angel and Angelus are two separate entities so I'm gonna treat them as such in this case. So I'm only talking about the Buffy/Angel relationship here, which to me was extremely cheesy. Angelus brought some excitement into it, that's true, but then again Angelus is a much more exciting character than Angel.

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                                  • #18
                                    I never gave the anti-feminist premise to Spuffy any real thought until I read many, many feminist essays tearing it apart. And, I found I agreed completely. It is pathological for a woman to decide to have sex with a guy just minutes after learning he is capable of beating her up again where she wasn't before.

                                    Buffy/Angel never had those kind of issues. In fact, Buffy had the unambiguous control of the relationship and Angel was kind of lamely codependent (sort of like Spike after the whip came out ). My biggest problem with Buffy/Angel is, as I've said, that it was essentially plot-driven.
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Cori View Post
                                      I think you misunderstood me here, Adam. I said that I would have less problems with the situation if it was the other way around (the woman dominating the man), I didn't say it was right. In fact, I called such a relationship unequal and an unequal relationship is not feminist for me. I know it might be for some feminists but not for me. I don't believe that the woman having all the power is better than the man having all the power. The relationship should be between equal partners and IMO Bangel was never that, Angel almost always had the upper hand.
                                      Well I'm very glad I misunderstood you Cori Because over the top feminists with those kind of views annoy me more than anything- even more than Spuffy shippers

                                      However, is any relationship really equal? Tillow and Xanya very evidently had an unequal power balance and IMO so did Spuffy. The only relationship I could ever view as equal would be Giles/Jenny but it wasn't as if that was really fully established as they were hardly even together.


                                      We will just have to agree to disagree on this because I really didn't see it like this at all. Buffy used Spike to make herself feel better, knowing very well how he was feeling about her, which IMO makes her very much be in a position of power.
                                      And Spike used her depression and concerns about being a demon and being with him to lure her into the darkness with him and away from her friends, very much displayed in Dead Things. Overall, Spike was more dominant throughout the entire relationship and Buffy made it very clear that she was just using him, and when Buffy finally got stronger in herself she broke it off with him.

                                      Spike always respected Buffy's views and opinions in season 7, something I never felt in the Bangel relationship. Spike supported and helped Buffy in season 7 that is true, but Buffy relied on Spike just as much. I think Giles even said something like this in First Date (can't remember the exact words right now). You might not see it this way but s7 Spuffy was the one relationship in Buffy's life that I felt most comfortable with, a relationship of giving and taking by both partners.
                                      But s7 Spike isn't the same person as s6 Spike is he? Just like Angel and Angelus aren't the same person. Therefore, how can we count it as the same relationship?

                                      Well yeah but everybody is always saying how Angel and Angelus are two separate entities so I'm gonna treat them as such in this case. So I'm only talking about the Buffy/Angel relationship here, which to me was extremely cheesy. Angelus brought some excitement into it, that's true, but then again Angelus is a much more exciting character than Angel.
                                      I like Angel but agree Angelus is far better, but then I think Angelus is far better than Spike as well

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                        Buffy/Angel never had those kind of issues. In fact, Buffy had the unambiguous control of the relationship and Angel was kind of lamely codependent (sort of like Spike after the whip came out ). My biggest problem with Buffy/Angel is, as I've said, that it was essentially plot-driven.
                                        But couldn't you say Spuffy was equally as plot driven as basically its purpose in season six was to end up giving Spike his soul? It wasn't even certain there was going to be Spuffy in s7, Joss asked SMG who she wanted Buffy to be with. To me this kind of demonstrates that Spuffy was basically a device for the plot, for Spike to get his soul.

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