Angel and Spike

[Boltmaiden]

Hi everyone I thought it would be really fun to have a thread dedicated to talking about Angel and Spike's ...err...relationship.

How do you think Spike and Angel really feel about each other? Is there respect between them or just pure hatred....do you think they have been able to evolve on how they see each other. We know originally Spike was the "lower" of the two in their group.

Do you like them in scenes together?

My personal take on how they view each other is that deep down there is respect and actual caring but their jealousy of each other, the never-ending rivalery will keep them from ever having a true heart to heart.I mean they are both vampires with a soul, they both have done terrible unforgivable things yet were able to become champions and grow as characters.

For me even with the Buffy dynamic

Spoiler:

now ATF they would have each other's backs

I always love when they are in scenes together, even when they are being petty and ridiculous..I just love them...probably doesn't hurt that they are two of my favorites

Plus they are so good at making me swoon, especially in badass mode

I look forward to all of your thoughts!

[sueworld]

I think that underneath all their bluff and snarling, that they do indeed have a mutual respect for each other, and what they have achieved during their 'unlives'.

I'm a huuuuge Spangel fan, and so I think that these two are at their very best when sparing off each other.

[Nina]

I'm getting tired of the petty fights between Spike and Angel ... who does Buffy love more? Who does Dru love more? Who is better? Who is stronger? Who's vision is the right one ... , snipe, snipe, bitch, bitch, bitch. If it was sometimes, I would think that it's funny ... but the writers seem to love it so much that they all want to spend scenes with stupid fighting between these two.

I like the idea of the vampires who know eachother already for more than 100 years and are somehow always stuck together. And the fact that they can't stand eachother but help the other anyway is a nice idea for their relation. But it's too much fighting/mocking and not enough good moments. I love their little moments when they have a normal talk like they had in Damage or in Issue #5.

What do I think about their 'feelings' for eachother... I don't believe in a big love between the two ... I think that they really can't stand eachother and are jealouse all the time. But they don't hate eachother, and they help the other when that is needed.

But they are really different; and they seem to be eachothers 'dream' person in some ways. Spike wants to be number one, to be seen ... Angel is number one, he is the one who gets all the credit, he gets the girls ... but that isn't what he really wants, he wants to be sure that he is a good person as a human, something Spike knows about himself ... William was/is a good man. Spike also got the chance to do what he likes, he had a loving mother and Angel has issues with his parents and never got the chance to be what he wanted to be. There was ever somebody who posted that Angel is what Spike was, and Spike is what Angel was ... they are a like in some ways, but they want and like other things ...

[Boltmaiden]

Nina made me think of another question due to her always fabulous responses.

Do you think that Spike and Angel will always revert to their jealousy and need to one up each other or do you think there is a possiblity for them to change that horrible habit? I personally hope to see some progression, due to their long history to progress completely past it is not realistic and I don't think I would want it to go away completely. But I would love to see some progression now.

Spoiler:

I always thought that when Spike finds out about Angel being human that would be a great time to start that.

Poor Buffy she may die a 4th time if she saw them being able to act like adults when it comes to her.

[Nina]

Nina made me think of another question due to her always fabulous responses.

Thank you,

Do you think that Spike and Angel will always revert to their jealousy and need to one up each other or do you think there is a possiblity for them to change that horrible habit? I personally hope to see some progression, due to their long history to progress completely past it is not realistic and I don't think I would want it to go away completely. But I would love to see some progression now.

Spoiler:

I always thought that when Spike finds out about Angel being human that would be a great time to start that.

I don't think that they'll ever acting nice and kind towards eachother if there is no urgent situation or a person like the Immortal in the picture. But we already know that they can act like adults when they've to, they were a great team in 'A Hole in the World', they understand eachother better than anyone and sometimes when they are serious ... they've no problem admitting that and have a good talk. But after 100 years, they are still behaving like two little kids. We saw sides of Angel in season 5, we never really saw before. Spike and Angel are both incredible immature when they are together.

I hope just like you that they will grow up, get over it ... but I doubt it. If there isn't a cup to fight about, or a girl ... they create new reasons. The writers love to write that and the clearly don't care if it's bad for the story or the character development.

Spoiler:

I think that Angel being a human, can calm them down. Angel is no longer stronger than Spike, not longer the legendary vampire Angelus, Spike is no longer in his shadow ... and Angel can have peace with who he is as a human and explore his place in this world and if his dreams fit in that world. So yeah, maybe not directly after the reveal, but after a while ... I think that it can make their relation better.

Poor Buffy she may die a 4th time if she saw them being able to act like adults when it comes to her.

That meeting is my biggest fear, because like I said ... the writers love to write petty Angel and petty Spike being pathetic and childish ... and I'm afraid that it will be like Chosen, where Angel wasn't the Angel of his own show ... but a big baby and Buffy being the mature one. Or TGIQ where Angel starts crying because Buffy moved on ... I don't know why a writer believed that Angel would cry, we saw him getting over Buffy in Ats season 3.

I would love it when they are mature, but I don't have much hope.

[Boltmaiden]

Spike's Remorse

Okay so in the Robin Wood thread a discussion came up about how both Spike and Angel handled coming face to face with some of their victims or I guess in both cases their victims families.

If I am remembering correctly I believe the consensus from that discussion was that Spike did not really begin to feel remorse for the things he had done as a souless vampire and really jump on the fightning the good fight bandwagon until he had been in LA with Angel in the episode Damaged.

Anyway my question is do you think Angel was a big influence on Spike now that they both have a soul? That Spike realizes that Angel is the only one who will ever truly understand what he is going through and that helps him to grow as a character and begin to feel remorse for past actions. In other words it is Angel that has the most profound effect on Spike seeing that he has to take responsibilty for what happened all those years as a souless vampire?

Or do you think it was more Fred's influence? Or maybe just a natural thing since he has that confrontation with that slayer (sorry can't think of her name right now)


Or maybe you have another theory?

[Nina]

I think that it's a combination of factors.

1. Time; Spike deals a little bit longer with his soul and had more time to think about it.

2. His time in Hell; He still went to hell, a soul didn't made him a hero. He needs to do more to keep out of hell than just having a soul and saving the world once.

3. No Buffy; In season 7, Buffy asked/forced Spike to deal with himself and get back to 'old Spike'. He also got cookies for behaving like an ass (LMPTM) and he probably believed that Buffy liked him more when he behaves like he did before the soul. And because his whole life turned around Buffy in season 7, her opinion was the only one that mattered.

4. Angel; His mirror and his mentor. Angel is disgusted by the coat, Angel tells him that a soul isn't a free-out-of-jail card and Angel shows how low you can fall, also after you saved the world and you have a soul for a long time.

5. Dana; I think that Dana was a better way to learn the truth than Robin because Dana didn't piss Spike of ... Spike had to see and to feel what he did. Nobody saved him, there was no chance to hit back. He sat there and he had to watch what he did in the past. And afterwards, he couldn't do much more than feel the pain and thinking about it. Angel didn't say that it was undeserved or that Dana was the wrong one. Angel told him that it was them to blame. And that scene is one of my favourites, because for the first time ... they sit and talk about something that only they can understand. And Spike learns Angel that they aren't bigger monsters than other people.