Btvs vs. Ats: BF verdict

[lee]

OK, reading peoples Season rankings posts got me thinking. Whats more popular, Buffy or Angel? It seems to me they are quite ven on this forum.

B:
s1. 8
s2. 9
s3. 9
s4. 10
s5. 9.5
s6. 8
s7. 7.5

A:
s1. 8
s2. 8
s3. 8
s4. 7
s5. 8

I love Ats but imo, Btvs is better in all departments(Characters, episodes, big Bads etc...)

[Nina]

It depends a lot, I think that BtVS is more loved ... a lot of people don't watch Angel. But I love Angel so much more,
The characters have better developments, the villians are better, the arcs are better, the regulars are fantastic and overall, it has more fantastic episodes and it never went down like BtVS did.

BtVS:
season 1: 7 (Crappy effects, make up and cheap villians ... but I love the trio moments ... I enjoy the Master and I like the happy days.)

Season 2: 9 (Slow beginning but an amazing arc with my favourite bad guy ... the drama is fantastic, but there is still a lot of humor and light moments.)

Season 3: 8.5 (The BtVS season with the most good episodes, I love the characters and their stories. And the friendship between the core 4.)

Season 4: 7 (Don't like the arc and I miss Cordy and Angel but there are some amazing episodes here.)

Season 5: 7 (good episodes, but it never felt amazing to me. I don't like what Dawn did to the cast and the story ... and I don't like it that Buffy isn't feeling like a normal girl anymore. And Riley's story is terrible executed.)

Season 6: 5.5 (Some good episodes, some really bad episodes and the downfall of some of my favourite characters. Also life as a bad guy is bad executed IMO. It was a little over the top.)

Season 7: 3 (Sucky writing, bad acting, awful new characters, bad characters developments, stupid writerfiats, an evil finale, etc.)

Angel:

season 2: 7.5 (A good first season with some amazing episodes and a good start for the better seasons.)

Season 2: 9 (Amazing arc, great character deveopments, very good bad guys and episodes like Reprise, Epiphany and AYNOHYEB. Only the last episodes aren't as good as the arc.)

Season 3: 8 (Dark season with great moments for almost all the characters and beautiful episodes like Foregiving and Lullaby. Holtz is one of the best bad guys ever and Angel with Connor is cute.)

Season 4: 9.3 (I think that I stated already enough why I love this season so much. )

Season 5: 8 (Very slow start but the end is fantastic with great a great arc an finale.)

[Enisy]

Buffy
Season 1: 3 / 10
Season 2: 9 / 10
Season 3: 8 / 10
Season 4: 6 / 10
Season 5: 10 / 10
Season 6: 8 / 10
Season 7: 5 / 10

(See my Loves & Hates post for details.)

Angel
Season 1: 2 / 10
Season 2: 7.5 / 10
Season 3: 6 / 10
Season 4: 6.5 / 10
Season 5: 9.5 / 10

So yeah, gotta be Buffy.

[LaJaula]

I think that Buffy has higher highs and lower lows than Angel, which I find to be pretty consistent. All in all, I like Angel better.

Buffy:
Season 1: 5/10
Season 2: 10/10
Season 3: 10/10
Season 4: 8.5/10
Season 5: 7.5/10
Season 6: 5/10
Season 7: 2/10

Angel:
Season 1: 7/10
Season 2: 8.5/10
Season 3: 8/10
Season 4: 10/10
Season 5: 7/10

[Enisy]

I'll never be able to understand the appeal of Season 1 of Angel (to those it appeals). I've never seen a more humorless, directionless series of television, with worse actors in lead roles (David Boreanaz, whose remarkable improvement didn't start until late Season 1/early Season 2, and Charisma Carpenter, who's the most hit-or-miss actress in Whedonverse). My brother and the guy I'm dating both gave up on it after four episodes, and I am, to this day, trying to persuade them that it gets better in Season 2.

[lee]

I know what you mean, but its saved by In the dark, Somnambulist, the prodigal and thelast 7
episodes. Plus Doyle,Wes and all the other Buffy characters making an apperance.
s2 is definetly alot more consistant though. 50% of s1 is pretty average.

[Nina]

I enjoyed season 1, it had great episodes (IWRY, Hero, The Prodigal, Somnambulist, Five by Five, Sanctuary, To Shanshu in LA) some good episodes (In the Dark, Blind Date, Parting Gifts) it had not a real structure, but I enjoyed it. I think that it has humor, I was okay with the acting ... I liked the characters ... it wasn't great ... but not bad at all.

[LaJaula]

I don't really like the first few episodes of Angel but I do think that the season starts to pick up at I Will Remember You. I love the way that Angel, Wesley, and Cordelia grow to love one another and think of one another as family, since they're the only ones that they have. It seems much more gradual and realistic to me than the way that the Core Four in Buffy are formed, with instant love and acceptance. I'll never get over Willow's reaction to Jesse's death-- "At least you guys are okay." Yes, my friend whom I've known for years is dead, but at least the new girl is okay! Sorry, slightly off topic. Anyways, I do like the us-against-the-world feel of Season One, and the unlikeliness of the three of them-- a moody, repentant and depressed 246-year old vampire, a studious bookworm in his early twenties, and an arguably ditzy ex-cheerleader just out of high school-- working together. The contrast in the way they are at the beginning of this season with how they are at the finale is astounding.

Also, I love the Faith arc, as well as To Shanshu in L.A.. Plus, episodes like The Prodigal, Blind Date, War Zone, Expecting, and In the Dark are all good episodes, even though they're not amazingly great. I've never had a problem with anyone's acting, either-- CC is always fine to me, and DB hasn't bothered me since the beginning of Buffy Season Two.

All in all, it's by no means my favorite (in fact, I think it's my least favorite season of Angel) but I do like it more than Buffy Seasons One, Six, and Seven.

[Michael]

Angel has better villains, I will say that. For me the attraction of the Slayer in the form of SMG overrides other considerations, but those other considerations do exist.
After Season 3 BtVS did not have a villain who I found interesting.

A good villain should represent a temptation as well as a threat. Vampires are excellent from this point of view. If a vampire is interested in you he or she can make an offer that many people would want to consider, especially when they have passed the age of 30

EDIT I agree with LaJaula in liking the idea of a small bunch of misfits and outsiders coming together to fight a secret battle against supernatural evil.
BtVS in its golden age gave us this cosy feeling, especially in the school library.

[Pandora's_Box]

I'm gonna use Enisy description which is smart.

Buffy:
Season 1: 2/10
Love: The characters introduction
Like: The master, Prophecy Girl and Nightmares
Hate: Direction, Visual Effects, Plots and everything else.

Season 2: 8.5/10
Love: Bangel, Passion, Becoming, Jenny Calendar, Spike, the four core's unity, the writings.
Like: Drusilla, Angel, the direction, Xandelia.
Hate: The 10 first episodes, Oz, Willoz.

Season 3: 6/10
Love: The Wish, Giles.
Like: Doppelgangled, Graduation, The Mayor, Wesley.
Hate: Faith, Bangel and lots of episodes.

Season 4: 6/10
Love: Hush, Primeval, Restless, Giles appartement , Spike.
Like: Adam, Pangs, Something Blue, Willow, Tara, Tillow, Anya, Xanya.
Hate: Riley, The Initiative, Forrest, Soldier Buffy.

Season 5: 8/10
Love: The epic of the season, Glory, The Body, The Gift, Intervention, Spiral, Spike, Spuffy, Buffy, Xanya, Tillow, Magic Box.
Like: Harmony, Joyce.
Hate: The 10 first episodes, Dawn, Riley, Ruffy.

Season 6: 10/10
Love: Everything
Like: Nothing
Hate: Nothing

Season 7: 10/10
Love: Everything
Like: Nothing
Hate: Nothing

Angel:
Season 1: 3/10
Love: Faith, Five By Five, the crossovers
Like: Cordy, Wesley
Hate: Everything else, Angel included.

Season 2: 5/10
Love: Darla, Drusilla, Lilah, Karaoke songs, dark Angel.
Like: Cordy, Wesley.
Hate: The rest of it.

Season 3: 4/10
Love: Cangel, Wesley.
Like: Angel, Cordy, Sahjhan, Fresley.
Hate: Fred, Connor, the last three episodes, Holtz.

Season 4: 8/10
Love: Episodes from 6 to 17.
Like: Episodes from 1 to 5.
Hate: Episodes from 18 to 22.

Season 5: 7.5/10
Love: Fresley, AHITW, Cordelia, YW, Shells, Illarya, dark Wesley.
Like: Spike, Angel, Connor, NFA, Harmony.
Hate: The 10 first episodes, NFA's cliffhanger, Eve, Hamilton, Wolfram and Hart.

BtVS: 10/10
Love: The characters evolution, Writings, Season Finales, Buffy, Willow, Season 6, Season 7, Spuffy, Chosen, Grave, The Body and a lot of things.
Hate: Riley, Oz, whiny Dawn, The Initiative, Season 1 and some things.

Angel: 6/10
Love: Wesley, Fresley, Cangel, AHITW, Illarya, Season 4's arc, Lilah and some things.
Hate: Angel (Season 1, 2 and 3), Connor, Season Finales, Wolfram and Hart, Season 1, Lindsey, Jasmine and a lot of things.

[BlasterBoy]

Oh, definitely Angel. Here's the rundown.

IMO, no season in the Jossverse is 10/10 (except maybe Firefly), because all have at least one bad episode, or one thing I dislike in the arc.

Buffy

Season 1: 3/10
Well, this season has three great episodes (The Pack, Angel, Prophecy Girl). Other than that, nope. And even in those episodes, go cheesy! RA RA RA!

Season 2: 7.5/10
A really average season. The first twelve episodes or so were, overall, pretty bad. "Surprise" was fantastic, and "Innocence" and "Becoming" still remain as top 10 episodes. Also, the Angelus arc is fantastic. BUT, it still has that old school lameness feel to it at times, and the bad guys are very dull, often. So, pair a great arc with horrible standalones first half. You get...average.

Season 3: 9/10
A wonderful season. Truly fantastic. So many great episodes like "The Wish", "Graduation Day", and "Enemies". Also, pair those with unforgettable underrated episodes such as "Revelation", "Bad Girls", and "Consequences". Faith is an amazing character, Willow is starting to grow on me more and more, Oz and Willow reach their height, as do Xander and Cordy. Then, the latter falls apart in a mind-blowing episode. The Mayor is a tremendous villain paired with the evil slayer, Faith, and dead accomplice Mr. Trick. Come on, it's awesome! This season only really lacks for select few episodes like "Dead Man's Party", "Beauty and the Beasts", "Homecoming", "Amends", and "Gingerbread". But, awesome season. This is where Buffy hits its stride.

Season 4: 8.5/10
Another great season following the awesomeness of Season 3. It's standalones done right with fantastic "The Harsh Light of Day", "Pangs", "Wild At Heart", "This Year's Girl"/"Who Are You?", etc. Also, wonderful to see Faith again with this arc. However, some horrible standalones ("Where The Wild Things Are", "A New Man", "Superstar") plague this season. Also, a pretty mediocre arc could've been so much better. This could've been the best season, but no one executed the arc well enough. For some reason, Joss stepped back and did only standalones. Great, but nowhere near to the standard of Season 3.

Season 5: 9.5/10
My favorite season in Buffy. Great stuff with almost every episode being great, with episodes like "Fool For Love", "The Body", and "The Gift". Also, other great episodes like "No Place Like Home", "Blood Ties", and "Spiral". Best arc of the bunch. Best. arc. ever. Glory's also my favorite big bad. So, awesome season. Not perfection due to the lackluster premiere, "Buffy vs. Dracula", the attempt at a good Xander episode, "The Replacement", the Spike return, "Out of my Mind", and the crazy stalker episode, "Crush".

Season 6: 7/10
So, the stride ends. This starts the UPN saga, the worst part of this series. Or, perhaps, the Jossverse. So, a darker theme comes over, and I'm cool with that, but I am not a fan of the Trio, many weak standalones here ("Flooded", "Doublemeat Palace", "As You Were", etc.) and not many great episodes. "Once More With Feeling" is not a favorite of mine, so it does not help this season. IMO, NO CLASSIC EPISODES. My favorite of the bunch is "Normal Again", which would not be first in almost any other season. I just feel the arc is pretty weak, major characters are left out (Giles! I need you!), Tillow ends, Willow becomes pathetic and a crappy character, and episodes fall really flat.

Season 7: 3/10
AH! Yep, it sucks. Majorly. Big time. Big time. So, the first seven episodes are good, with a few bad episodes, "Beneath You" and "Same Time, Same Place". However, it has a fantastic opener, has the heartbreaking "Help", a wonderful Anya episode "Selfless", and the creepy and chilling "Conversations With Dead People". It set this "The First" to look really cool. It could've been the best season. BUT, "Sleeper" hit. It became Spike, The Vampire Not-Slayer But Helps One Cause He Has A Chip In His Head, and Wait, Now A Soul. Long title. Then the lame potentials in "Bring On The Night" and "Showtime", two more horrible episodes. The First became incredibly lame. Then, some of the worst episodes of the series hit: "The Killer In Me", "First Date", "Get It Done", "Lies My Parents Told Me", "Empty Places", and lastly, "Chosen". Most of the other episodes were okay, and only some hit good, like "Storyteller" and "Dirty Girls". This season could've been amazing like Season 4, but it just sucked.

Angel

Season 1: 8.5/10
So, another great standalone season suffering from the same symptom as Season 4 of BtVS. Some bad standalones and a lack of an arc. However, contains fantastic episodes like "I Will Remember You", "Hero", "Five By Five", "Sanctuary", and "To Shanshu In L.A". So, read my Season 4 review of BtVS. That's why it gets a lower grade.

Season 2: 9.5/10
Yep, my favorite (or tied with another) season of Angel. Great arc, with Darla (one of my favs), and more than many memorable episodes like "Dear Boy", "Darla", "The Trial", "Reunion", "Reprise", "Epiphany", and "Dead End". I could probably make the list longer, but whatever. Again, this gets the Season 5 BtVS season. Great arc, amazing episodes...however, two episodes plague this season: "Happy Anniversary" and "The Shroud of Rahmon". Damn them. However, still better than Season 5 of BtVS, the best BtVS season. This is where Angel hits it's stride.

Season 3: 9/10
Okay, a great season. GREAT. Keeps Angel's stride, which is awesome. Brings back the lovely and magnificent Darla and makes one of the best damn three-parters ever...AGAIN. "Lullaby" might possibly be my favorite Ats episode, paired with "Forgiving" (also in this season), "Reunion", "Reprise", and "Not Fade Away". The middle is where things fall a little flat with episodes like "Provider" and "Couplet". However, once 3x15 "Loyalty" hits, the season's back on track with "Sleep Tight" and awesome "Forgiving". Then, the fabulous three-part season finale: "A New World", "Benediction", and "Tomorrow". The former two being awesome. So, great season with a little fall in the middle.

Season 4: 9.5/10
The season I'm debating with Season 2 about. This season has a totally new symptom, unfortunately. It is amazing with one of the best arcs in the verse, perhaps the best. The Beast is so epic, and episodes 6 through 15 are some of the best Angel episodes ever produced holding "Habeas Corpses", "Soulless", "Calvary", "Salvage", and "Release". The first five episodes are good, but not fantastic. And with one huge stinker: "Slouching Towards Bethlehem". Episode 16 is pretty good. Then "Inside Out" hits, and it's fantastic. THEN, Jasmine starts. I love her idea, and Gina Torres, but "Shiny Happy People" falls flat. But episodes 19-21 are fantastic. And "Home", the season finale, is pretty bad. So, three kinda bad episodes and loss of real Cordy makes me sad. But, other than that, fantastic season, right along with Ats s2 and BtVS s5 as the best in the verse.

Season 5: 5/10
Don't yell at me. BUT, I think the first half sucks...insanely sucks. "Conviction", "Just Rewards", "Unleashed", etc. They all suck. However, it contains some fantastic and amazing episodes like "Destiny", "Damage", "You're Welcome", "Shells", "Origin", and "Not Fade Away". But, they do away with every female character on the show. They move to W&H, which sucks. Angel does nothing. The season has no arcs, AND the standalones suck. And the presence of Spike is horrible. So....no....there's no way in hell this season gets a higher grade. Worst season of Angel, no doubt about it.

Okay, so average 'em up.....

Buffy: 6.8...yowzas! That's not good, but don't worry, I think much more highly of Buffy than this! I know it's the two 3s that brought the average way down. Sorry

Angel: 8.3....much higher than Buffy. WINNER!

That clears that one up.

[LRae12]

wow, it's really close. I do love Angel's episodes when I'm watching them more than Btvs's....but it seems Btvs's eppy's are the ones I go back and rewatch more often and are more memorable....so I went with Btvs.

As for my season rankings, they'd be:

Btvs 4
Ats 5
Btvs 2
Btvs 6
Ats 1
Btvs 3
Ats 3
Btvs 5
Ats 2
Ats 4
Btvs 1
Btvs 7

[NileQT87]

btvs 2
ats 4
ats 3
btvs 3
ats 5
ats 2
ats 1
btvs 1
btvs 6
btvs 5
btvs 7
btvs 4

[ShinyFirefly]

IMO, no season in the Jossverse is 10/10 (except maybe Firefly)

Oh, heck yeah. Firefly is #1.

Between Angel and Buffy it's gotta be Angel for me. I think that some people prefer Buffy because it doesn't take itself as seriously but that is one of the reasons I don't. For me, Angel definitely had a more tense, dark feel to it than Buffy usually did and I like that (notice I said "usually", so as not to start arguments over the whole 'Angel is darker than Buffy' thing).

It also had my favorite Big Bads of ANY Jossverse show - Wolfram and Hart - especially Lilah. They were so much fun.

There is no Angel season I think is completely crap but I've literally never watched some of Buffy's season 7 episodes since I first saw them because they appealed to me not a single bit.

Angel also has my favorite Buffyverse characters - Lilah (as previously mentioned), Angel, Wesley, and Lorne.

If I were to rate the seasons (which I won't now because I'm finding it hard) I think that the only Buffy season I would find on par with any Angel season is season 2. But that's just how I'm feeling today, I go through my 'Buffy love' phases but I don't think I've ever preferred it to Angel.

[skinless]

Well i chose Buffy becuz theres only one Angel season that I feel has the goods to match up with Buffy and thats season 5. I liked the way Pandora's Box did it and I was going to do it that way but Im too tired now so Im not. But I will rank the seasons and let u guys know were they stand in my book.

1. BTVS-S.2 - 10/10
2. BTVS-S.5 - 10/10
3. ATS -S.5 - 8.5/10 (Bad first 5 Episodes Kills the rating)
4. BTVS-S.3 - 8/10
5. BTVS-S.6 - 7.5/10
6. ATS-S.1 - 7/10
7. BTVS-S.7 - 7/10
8. BTVS-S.1 - 6/10
9. ATS-S.3 - 4.5/10
10. ATS-S.2 - 3/10
11. BTVS-S.4 - 1.5/10
12. ATS-S.4 - 1/10

[vampmogs]

I like Buffy better than Angel. I have far more investment in the Buffy characters than I do in a lot of the Angel characters and I think in earlier seasons Ats was terribly inconsistent. It had some god awful episodes. I can't stand nearly any of Ats s1 as I'm not a fan of a whole season devoted to stand alones and I didn't find most of the stories particularly entertaining at all.

I don't think Ats hit it's stride until s3 onwards and then it was great. Season 2 had some amazing episodes but some horrible ones as well, I think it got far better and consistent from season 3 where there was definitely a tonal shift in the show.

The only thing Ats beats Btvs in is that it kept getting better then was cancelled whereas with Btvs it went downhill and was cancelled.

I'd rank Btvs:

Season 1: 5/10
Season 2: 9/10
Season 3: 10/10
Season 4: 7/10
Season 5: 8.5/10
Season 6: 6.5/10
Season 7: 5.5/10

(I judged season 7 more harshly than season 1 because season 1 was just finding its footing, there was no excuse for the crappiness of season 7.)

I'd rank Ats:

Season 1: 4/10
Season 2: 7.5/10
Season 3: 8/10
Season 4: 9/10
Season 5: 8.5/10

[Enisy]

Buffy wasn't cancelled. It "could have gone on until the year 3000", to quote James Marsters, but it ended because Joss and especially Sarah were exhausted.

[vampmogs]

Buffy wasn't cancelled. It "could have gone on until the year 3000", to quote James Marsters, but it ended because Joss and especially Sarah were exhausted.

Yeah you're right I didn't mean to say cancelled, should have said ended. But my point was more that Ats was getting stronger whereas Btvs was doing the complete opposite. Ats ended on a high, Btvs ended on a low.

[Enisy]

Yeah, can't disagree with that.

Thank you for joining me in the Angel Season 1 criticism, by the way. A man after my own heart.

[vampmogs]

Yeah, can't disagree with that.

Thank you for joining me in the Angel Season 1 criticism, by the way. A man after my own heart.

Ha no problem! Can't stand the season personally. I mean I love 'Five By Five' 'Sanctuary' 'I Will Remember You' and although I used to not like it, I actually really like 'City Of...' And 'In The Dark' 'Eternity' and 'To Shanshu In La' aren't all that bad either. But it's pretty sad when the majority of the episodes I do like are really because they include 'Btvs' characters in them, which to me, demonstrates 'Ats' just wasn't doing it for me at this point.

The majority was hopeless and it felt like it had no direction whatsoever. There was no real seasonal arc, it was just episode then episode again and they didn't feel connected or like they were all coming together for one big thing, it just felt all over the place. And the one thing I didn't like a lot about Ats was the detective undercurrent which is why I preferred the last three seasons and the episodes in season 2 when it didn't concentrate on this aspect. That's basically only what season 1 concentrated on.