Shanshu who!

[lee]

Do you think either Angel or Spike deserved it more than the other?
I tend to think none of them deserve it more, they both became good people and worthy winners, so whoever did get it deserved to get it.

[Nina]

It's not possibe to give Spike the Shanshu, it's for Angel. Not because it's not possible in the story, but if they retcon the whole Shanshu thing ... it would feel so cheap. The Shanshu is introduced in Angel's show for Angel and if you take it away from him in his own show, I doubt that it would feel statisfying. Again, tv-justice ... it's Angel's thing and the possibility that it can be for Spike as well, is not more than a way to make Angel doubt himself.

And if I've to say who deserves it more in the story; again Angel. Angel is on this moment the one who fights because it's the right thing ... where Spike still needs a person to fight for (Buffy, Fred and maybe Angel), and that's not a bad thing and there is a big chance that Spike will be there one day ... but right now, Angel is more a 'hero'.
Another point; Angel hates being a vampire ... Spike seems to be okay with it. Angel can't deal very well with being immortal, with his past and who he is. Where Spike has less trouble with it. I think that there is no way that Angel will ever have peace with who he is ... not really. And he won't (and can't) be very happy ... and Spike can IMO.

(I've to admit that I've not much insight in Spike, I've no idea what the writers want with him or what they want him to be ... besides it's less about his feeling than it is about Angel's feelings .... because it's Angel's show.)

And of course my last point (A;ATF spoilers)

Spoiler:

I believe that Angel recieved the shanshu, and I'm very happy how that happened so I hope that it really is his shanshu and not some weird effect of hell.

[vampmogs]

I agree with 'TV Justice' being one big reason as to why Angel should get it, the same way Spike had to win the fight in 'Destiny.' Wanting to become human has been a part of Angel's character from very early on, most certainly at least from 'The Prom' in ?Buffy.' He hated when Buffy brought up the vampire thing because he knew what an obstacle it was for their relationship and in the end had to sacrifice his relationship with Buffy because he knew he couldn't give her what she deserved. So from very early on Angel's inner struggles with being a vampire were surfacing. And as he states to Jasmine when she claims that he's not a human he's says "working on it." It's what he desperately wants, being a vampire has always held him back. It was a worry for him concerning Connor and what kind of life it can give him and from season one he's fought because he saw that light at the end of the tunnel. In episodes like 'I Will Remember You' he sacrificed this for the world, it's only 'TV Justice' he gets it back.

Creatively I don't think it makes much sense to give it to Spike at all. It's always been a arc for Angel's character and always been a part of Angel's story, until s5 of Ats it'd had never been brought up in relation to Spike whatsoever so it'd seem weird, and given Spike admits that part of the reason is to take something away from Angel, I don't think it works.

Reasons from within the show I think point strongly to indicate Angel as well. He's always the vampire with the soul mentioned in the prophecies, he's drawn to the Shanshu Prophecy before even knowing what it was in 'Blind Date,' his future is read as being a vampire who plays a pivotal role in the apocalypse in Las Vegas when his destiny is stolen, both the PTB and Senior Partners think it is Angel and he's always been a major player when it comes to prophecies and destinies where Spike really hasn't in that area.

It's all pretty moot now anyway though considering the developments in ?After the Fall' and the fact Angel is now human. I'm hoping it's permanent and not temporary and I'm really hoping that it was a Shanshu and not by something other force because that'd be such bitter irony for Angel and would be far more interesting.

And I don't think both of them should have it either. Angel has his story and Spike has his, not sure why there's such a need for them to always be ?equal' anymore than any other character in the verse is equal. I don't think it's a case of "Angel got the Shanshu so Spike should to because that's unfair!" because the world doesn't work that way. And creatively I don't think it has to either, it was always a part of Angel's arc over the course of many years and was never a big part of Spikes. I would find it odd for Spike's story to end this way when he's hardly ever (and never before coming onto Ats) expressed problems with the fact he's a vampire. It'd be completely from left side to end his arc there whereas it makes sense narratively for Angel.

[dinamo]

I'm one of those people that doesn't want Spike to get the Shanshu. I don't particullarly care if Angel gets it or not, I'd just don't think its really something Spike truly wants. I think Spike enjoys being a vampire, fists and fangs and all that. He doesn't seem to have a problem with it too much, he is what he is and he accepts it, and lives his life as it comes to him. Angel isn't like that, he wants to atone, do the right thing, and get the validation that he's faught the good fight and been a champion.

[lara]

Well, about deserving, they both could be deserving of that reward, BUT I think Angel is the likely candidate to get it, because No. 1: It was prepared to be for Angel since day one in the series. No. 2: Angel is the one who really wants it, it what his show was about, he has a problem with being a vampire, he hates it, he wants his humanity back because well, he's a totally different person when he's a vampire, he's a killer, he's Angelus, he has a double personality problem, and if I were him, I'd want to get rid of my other side too. Spike, on the other hand, doesn't need the Shanshu, he likes being a vampire, he doesn't have a problem with it, he can be Spike the vampire and Spike the man too, all in one, no double personality there. The reason he wanted to beat Angel for the cup of torment was just to prove him that he could, and that he's changed for the better, it was more about stating a point than for the desire to become human. Angel is the one that should get the Shanshu.

[dinamo]

I've never really understood why Angel wanted to be human so much though to be honest, he wasn't exactly a nice person as a human. He's at his nicest as a vampire with a soul oddly.

[NileQT87]

angel is liam. the father/son issues, the travel interest (and probably the photographic memory, art skills and language skills), caring for his little sister, etc... liam wasn't a bad man. he was a disillusioned one. he thought his father was a religious hypocrite who had his fair share of ill behaviors, he was stuck in galway ("i always wanted to see the world, but..."), probably was expected to be a middle-class linen merchant, etc... we also know liam was disillusioned with what was supposed to become of him and the women of the time. so who did he turn to? whores... including darla, ironically. and since he couldn't get out of galway, he drank, whored and brawled.

interesting thing about liam--he comes out of the tavern with a drunk fellow. the guy passes out. meanwhile, liam is talking about stealing his father's silver and slurring. but he sees darla, turns around and no longer acts like a wobbly drunk lout. he actually sounds quite naive when he talks to her--wanting to see the world, the fact that she looks out of place all dolled up in small-town galway, etc... the loutish behavior wasn't him. it was a reaction far down the road. it was rebellion from his father. liam was actually a very smart, artistic fellow who cared for his sister--and his sister was the first family member angelus killed.

liam was more like angel than people give him credit for. angel is liam + a very sudden wake-up call, 145 years of horrific memories and a new bunkmate in his body whispering in his head.

as for who deserved it more. angel. and not because of a count of apocalypses or who was the better human. there's a big difference between angel and spike's motivations during a good portion of the time that they've been fighting. angel is more selfless. he's also dealt with it much more responsibly and taken atonement and redemption seriously. spike, well into season 5, didn't give a piss about atonement. when marcus, the pedophile vampire, asked angel what he wanted... he didn't say to be human and to have a bunch of babies with buffy. angel said "forgiveness". the shanshu isn't humanity. it's forgiveness from the powers that be. it is being told that he has been forgiven. that he's not destined to go to hell, no matter what he does (and angel cares a whole lot about heaven and hell--liam was catholic, angelus was obsessed with destroying purity and mocking god, and angel talks about redemption in religious terms quite a bit. it's prominent.).

another thing--the tro-clon prophecy is very specific regarding angel, darla, connor and holtz--and also part of the scrolls of aberjian and the nyazian scroll. the shanshu prophecy was only a tiny portion of the scrolls of aberjian. all of the prophecies are linked. it isn't just a "vampire with a soul" that is included in the prophecies. it's a vampire with a soul who makes a kid with another vampire, holtz is foretold as part of the confluence, the son of two vampires will grow to manhood and kill sahjhan, the kid was created to sleep with mother love and bring forth jasmine, the vampire will face not just *an* apocalypse, but *the* apocalypse--which is exactly how lindsey put it, etc... and none of these prophecies included spike. it's not just *a* vampire with a soul. it's a vampire with a soul with a confluence of specific events and trials.

Spoiler:

and... it's very likely that angel just shanshued.

[Nina]

Angel with a soul is Liam. Angel with a soul is just older and wiser than the boy who was sired 250 years ago. When Angel became human in IWRY, there was no change in behavior ... Angel was still Angel. The shanshu will be a second chance for him to be a good human.

Spoilers!

Spoiler:

Also in After the Fall where Angel is human, there is no change in behavior, he behaves the same as Angel the vampire with a soul.

And he wants to be a human because he hates being a vampire. He is afraid that the vampire will win of the man, he hates immortality, he isn't aloud to be happy and Angel is often seen as a monster by others ... and that is bothering him (Gunn who doesn't want to be friends because he is a vampire, Connor who doesn't accept Angel as a father because he is a vampire, Kate who blamed him because he was a vampire, Xander who never gave him a chance because he is a vampire etc.).

Angel wants to be normal, he had and did almost everything in his life ... only a normal loving family he didn't have, and he really wants that. But he can only get that when he is a human.

And I think that Angel still sees the Shanshu as a reward (because it's everything he wants), when he gets it ... he can have some peace with his past.

Edit:
I'm too slow. And Nile explained Liam = Angel better than I did.

[NileQT87]

another bit of proof that angel is liam... he frequently is accused of thrift. he also lapses into liam-speak occasionally.

Angel: I’m not cheap. I’m just old. I remember when a few bob got you a good meal, a bottle and a tavern wench.

Angel: I don't even own a TV. He's gonna wanna watch TV. Not too much, I mean, after homework and chores. He's gonna need clothes, weekly allowance... What's good nowadays? Fifty cents, a dollar?
Cordy: Yeah. If you're Tom Sawyer painting the fence.

Spike: Never much cared for you, Liam, even when we were evil.

Angel: She's an innocent victim.
Spike: So were we... once upon a time.
Angel: Once upon a time.

and on the topic of angel fearing hell:

Angel: You think any of it matters? The things we did? The lives we destroyed. That's all that's ever gonna count. So, yeah, surprise. You're going to hell. We both are.
Spike: Then why even bother? Try to do the right thing, make a difference...
Angel: What else are we gonna do?
Spike: So, that's it, then. I really am going to burn.
Angel: Welcome to the club.

and of course the quote that sort of made it impossible to fanwank angelus and angel as the same being (which supports exactly what was laid out in the harvest):

Angelus: And two, if I did have any friends, they sure as hell wouldn’t be living inside my head!
Evil-Cordy: Like you’re forced to live inside Angel's? Because you’re the voice in there, aren’t you? Just beneath the surface. Buried under all that goodness. Fully conscious, fully aware… but trapped. Unable to move or speak. Powerless to act on your desires. So thirsty, so helpless. It must be agony.

and as nina said--the time(s) we've seen angel become human, without the demon, angelus, liam has shown himself to be angel.

also, if angel and angelus were the same--liam wouldn't have come back from the ether twice not knowing what had happened until angelus' memories get added on top of liam's last memories. we saw this at the gypsy camp where liam is looking around and confused by what the gypsy man is telling him about having killed people--he doesn't even remember doing it yet. same with angel coming back with buffy--he doesn't even know what's behind him. it's because liam's last memories in both cases were in the galway alley and post-coital with buffy. it looks like angel finally got a handle on the place and situation dislocation when he got ensouled for the 3rd time--knowing that angelus was out and about and reacting probably before he even knew what angelus had done while he was gone.

[KingofCretins]

The Angel/Angelus distinction is metaphorical, not literal. The disorientation with the gypsies? Would have been the same had you clobbered a man over the head with a shovel. Then memory returns and with it, and his new conscience, the vampire Angelus was horrified at himself. So horrified that within a few years his revulsion would lead to a denial of self so complete he would change his name -- to Angel.

Leaving that dead horse on the ground, though, the Shanshu:

If it was just a meritocracy, I'd actually say Spike "deserves" it more than Angel. I agree with pretty much every point Spike made in his own case in "Destiny" -- he had wanted the soul, reason notwithstanding, had fought to get it. It makes sense that if such a being existed, it would be the 'champion' described by that prophecy. But it's not about who deserves it. It's about Angel, we know this pretty plainly from the text.

As for more recent developments,

Spoiler:

I, too, hope that this really was the Shanshu in "After the Fall". My take is that Angel always had the power over the prophecy, because he was the one that had to fulfill it. So he *did* sign away something -- the terms of fulfilling it. Angel basically signed to say that he agreed that Wolfram & Hart, not himself, could satisfy the prophecy, determine when or if it's executed. He did so thinking it never would be, but instead, the Partners turned it on him when it would hurt him most. And, in a perfect Joss touch, made Angel's fondest wish come true in a way that made him kinda miserable.

[NileQT87]

angelus loves himself--even when angel is on top of the demon, angelus still loves himself. angelus is disgusted by purity and goodness. angelus can never be redeemed. he has no humanity. it goes beyond not having a conscience. angelus hates liam/angel as much as liam/angel hates angelus. even in angel's head, angelus loves those 145 years of horror--he wants liam/angel to break, to mess up and let him get in control. liam and angelus hate each other. two beings; one body. and as nina said--human-angel, which is nothing but liam, is the same person as angel. angel is liam, while pushing down angelus from an ability to act.

it has always been the official explanation that when you become a vampire, the demon takes your body and they're not you. you're gone. thus, how could angelus be the same being with a conscience, while still enjoying pain and destruction and wanting to get out? it goes against everything in that definition of a vampire. there is no possible way that angel is angelus with a conscience.

and the only argument for the conscience is the fact that the gypsies are getting back at angelus and hurting another being (and others if the curse is broken) in the process of their vengeance. angelus' curse is being stuffed down inside liam. the gypsies don't really care if anybody else gets hurt in the process. any other arguments are by characters who *need* someone physical and present to blame (holtz speaks on this very subject--liam wasn't even there when angelus killed holtz's family, but it was his hands who did it, he who remembers doing it and he whose body and personality caused the formation of the monster)--and you can't destroy angelus without killing liam. and liam has a hard time separating his memories from angelus. he remembers doing things with his body, his hands--he remembers ENJOYING it, even though he wasn't there. angel doesn't have memories of being horrified of past events. his memories of everything is through the eyes of someone who savored every second.

and what about angel's points in destiny? the one about getting the soul not because of it "being the right thing to do", but actually because spike wanted buffy--it was selfishness. and then there's the possibility that spike still hasn't let it out that spike went to the chip out, but the demon granted his wish using a twisting of his words--to make him what he was--spike never specified what previous person he wanted to be. either way it was not a noble mission. either way, different halves of spike would have gotten what he wanted--the rush and crunch vampire would get cut loose or the love's bitch would prove buffy wrong--would be 'worthy' of buffy. both interpretations of what he wanted are somewhat revengeful and selfish.

spike and william blur the lines between each other, but like liam being angelus' blank slate, spike and william are not the same person. also--spike wasn't rambling in the basement about things he did as a vampire... he was rambling about things william had done.

often overlooked that that scene was specifically written for both to actually be speaking the truth at each other. it cut both ways. it wasn't all about spike winning. they both cut each other down equally. they both came back bruised and bloodied and nothing to show for it. that was a metaphor. they both were taken down some pegs. both had faults pointed out to them.

[kana]

Ok I'm a little tired and I've had a little to drink but here it is.

It's not possibe to give Spike the Shanshu, it's for Angel. Not because it's not possible in the story, but if they retcon the whole Shanshu thing ... it would feel so cheap. The Shanshu is introduced in Angel's show for Angel and if you take it away from him in his own show, I doubt that it would feel statisfying. Again, tv-justice ... it's Angel's thing and the possibility that it can be for Spike as well, is not more than a way to make Angel doubt himself.

As I've said on another thread when I'm analyzing this I tend to look at evidence inside the show rather than looking at my own emotional motivations. From a narrative perspective it makes sense that Angel would the Shanshu but I still feel that the Shanshu isn't necessarily about justice. Angel has always been kind of an self defined existential character. Even if he does Shanshu, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be a reward. I kind of like that idea that s**t happens and he has to deal with it. I can relate to that lol.

And if I've to say who deserves it more in the story; again Angel. Angel is on this moment the one who fights because it's the right thing ... where Spike still needs a person to fight for (Buffy, Fred and maybe Angel), and that's not a bad thing and there is a big chance that Spike will be there one day ... but right now, Angel is more a 'hero'.

I've never really seen it as a score board. I really believe in Angel's champion speech and it states that it doesn't really matter how you got there but it's the fact that you are fighting for a better world. Angel regards Spike in such a way. That's enough for me. Angel was cursed by chance and Spike may not have become a champion without meeting Buffy but it's what they do subsequent to that, that matters.

Another point; Angel hates being a vampire ... Spike seems to be okay with it. Angel can't deal very well with being immortal, with his past and who he is. Where Spike has less trouble with it. I think that there is no way that Angel will ever have peace with who he is ... not really. And he won't (and can't) be very happy ... and Spike can IMO.

Spike is very adaptable in that respect. I can actually imagine him being ok with being human or a vampire. With Angel, we have to understand that he is equally at odds with who is and well as what he is. The awkwardness and self-loathing come from the 'Liam' part of him rather than the demon. Part of why I like him lol.

Spoiler:

I believe that Angel recieved the shanshu, and I'm very happy how that happened so I hope that it really is his shanshu and not some weird effect of hell.

Spoiler:

I kind of hope so but for the reason's I've mentioned. I hope it's the Senior Partners because it would be ironic that the one thing that Angel really wants, he gets but at the most ill-opportune time, but I'd love it if he turns it on his head and is able to find a purpose as human. After spending over two centuries as a vampire I could actually see him struggle with this. Someone as resourceful and smart as Angel can always find a reason to brood.

[Nina]

I love that the Shanshu isn't a beautiful reward, let's make that clear.

About ATF

Spoiler:

I never wanted it to be a cheesy reward, that's why I love the way it happened. If it would've been different, you get the scene like we saw in Soul Purpose with Spike who got humanity given my fairies after he created a Disney world. It's not a reward, but Angel created it himself, they made him human because of who he is and not because they want to reward him or help him. It fits in his story, but it's also a glimp of hope for the future, a chance to live a normal life ... but he has to create that himself, just like he forced the SP to make him human.

So, I doubt that the writers can give me a more statisfying Shanshu than this one, that is one of the main reasons why I want this to be the Shanshu.

[lee]

Before i go putting spoilers in, how do you put the spoiler alert thing up?

[Nina]

Above the place where you write your text, is list with 'buttons' like B, I, U etc. If you write your spoilertext and you select it afterwards and you press on the last button of that row ... there will be spoilerbars.

or you typ the code;

[spoiler*] spoilertext [/SPOILER] (without the * of course)

[lee]

Im just new to Atf but

Spoiler:

I
seen the cover for #11 and, well, Angels got vampire face.
i can see this cuurent human form being a false alarm, and he
will go back to vamp Angel.

[Nina]

Spoiler:

I think that it's more likely that the cover isn't literal. That it's from Gunn's POV (who still thinks that Angel is a vampire) or that it's the spell who makes everybody think that Angel is still a vampire. If they change Angel back, they will probably make it a big twist or suprise in the comic, so they won't show it on one of the covers ... that would spoil it.

[ThePoet's<3]

I think both of them deserve to "Shanshu".

Angel has born his soul w/its curse and tried to always do the right thing.

Spike deliberately fought to get his soul back because he loved someone so much he wanted to make her happy.

One was cursed w/a soul and one fought for a soul. They've both learned - one maybe a little longer than the other - that what matters is the good they do now with the soul they have. So I think they both deserve the prize.

[Revan]

Angel all the way!

The only reason spike got his soul in the first place was to get in buffy's pants! no other reason. That's his excuse for why he should get it. And how much did spike work for it again? Nowhere near as much really.

Has he regretted what he's done? Not really he's just conviently forgotten. He donesn't say sorry. It's like how Faith conviently forgot how she killed the mayor's guy. He doesn't mourn. Which to me shows he doesn't really care.

Not that I'm saying he should brood as much as angel did/does.

Angel has worked so much harder and gone through so much punishment. For example to quote him (sort of)

" I spent 100 years getting over what I'd done. You cried for a few days in a basement

[lee]

Yeah but thats Angels problem. Who cares if he spends 100 years getting over it?
All that proves is Angel really should have got a grip a long time ago.
If you think on it, an evil vampire wanting his soul back for any reason is amazing. at
least Spike done it because he loved someone, isnt that a good enough reason?
Its more than can be said for Angel, his was forced upon him then he
sat around crying about it for 100 years, feeling sorry for himself. Nah, Angel dosent
have any special rights or privelages to the Prophecy.