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The Ultimate Showdown: Bangel vs. Spuffy!

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  • The Ultimate Showdown: Bangel vs. Spuffy!

    Since this forum is becoming our new home more and more, I decided to re-post one of the most popular threads on BW, the Bangel vs. Spuffy one. I hope we can get this discussion going again and maybe even get some new insights regarding this infamous debate.

    Just like on BW, oneliner answers will not be allowed here so please explain in detail why you prefer one ship over the other. Let me start this off with my opinion about why I prefer Spuffy so much more and why it is still one of the most fascinating TV relationships there is for me.

    As long as I can remember I have always been attracted to unconventional, untraditional things which go against the mainstream. I don't really know where this comes from because my parents and my sister are quite traditional in a lot of their views. For example I never dreamt of getting married in white and having loads of kids. I have always thought that there should be more in a woman's life than just marriage and family, I guess that's where my feminist thinking started.

    Now you may ask yourself what this has to do with Spuffy. Spuffy is the most unconventional and untraditional relationship I've ever seen on TV and I was drawn to it immediately. Spuffy is a true grey area relationship and as I have told you before, I'm a sucker for the grey area. I love that Spuffy is not a relationship which is easy to define, it makes it so much more exciting, interesting and sexy IMO. Then when I joined BuffyWorld and met other Spuffy shippers, I realised that most of them share my views on unconventional and untraditional relationships and that a woman's role should entail more than a husband, kids and being a housewife. Spuffy shippers (who are mostly women, what a surprise, LOL) are in my experience more open-minded, unconventional and untraditional than Bangel shippers for example (I don't really know about Ruffy shippers). Bangels like things to stay the way they are and some of them have very traditional views on life, love and sex. Therefore, I could never be a Bangel shipper because Bangelism equals convention and traditionalism to me. I love how Spike and Buffy evolve, develop and change throughout the seasons. Their relationship is never static, never boring, always good for a surprise. This is exactly what I'm looking for in a relationship too (I could do without the violence though that also exists in Spuffy, well at least in season 6). First Spike and Buffy were mortal enemies, then reluctant allies (in season 4), friends (season 5), lovers (season 6) and lastly equal partners in a loving romantic relationship (in season 7). Spuffy doesn't give a shit about social rules or guidelines or about how a girl should "behave". In the Spuffy relationship, both partners are equal (at least in season 7). Buffy is not the little woman who needs to be protected by the big strong guy and Spike is the ONLY guy in her life who has ever really understood that. Neither Angel nor Riley ever got that. Spike fell in love with Buffy because she IS strong and extraordinary, not a normal girl, he wouldn't have it any other way. Spike doesn't feel threatened by Buffy's strength and her power. It's no coincidence that so many feminists and also lesbians are so very fond of Spike. He's the only boyfriend of Buffy's who didn't try to stifle her, he challenged her constantly (just like equal partners do), helped and supported her and most importantly loved her more than anything else in the world. The fact that Spike was ready and willing to go through such drastic changes (= getting his soul back) just to prove his love to Buffy and to become a better man for her touches me deeply in my heart. I still cry every time I watch the church scene in "Beneath You" because Spike's pain, sadness and desperation were so immense (and so brilliantly played by James Marsters, I think this is his most shining acting hour on BTVS). And it touches Buffy just as much, she starts crying when she learns that Spike got his soul back and realises all this entails. This is one of my favourite Spuffy moments of all times.

    Another reason why I think that Spuffy is the real deal and Bangel is long gone is also based on personal experiences. When I was a teenager, I also had a boyfriend just like Buffy. Granted my relationship to this guy was not as deep and serious as Bangel was but still. I don't think I was even ready to love so deeply at that age. I didn't really know myself back then (and I'm still trying to figure that out) so how could another human being get me? I just don't believe in teenage relationships which last forever. I think a woman (or a man for that matter) needs to develop and evolve first, needs to find out who they are before she or he is really ready for love. None of my friends are still in a relationship with their teenage boyfriends (or girlfriends). People change and move on and that's the way it should be. That's what Buffy did and Bangel shippers just can't or rather don't want to see that. Buffy and Angel do not even know each other anymore, they are not in each other's life anymore. Spike was beside Buffy when she went through her most important changes and supported and helped her on her path. Angel would probably not even recognise Buffy anymore if he knew everything that has been happening in her life these past few years (and vice versa). Besides Buffy doesn't really trust Angel, she never did. I would even say that she trusted Riley much more than she trusted Angel (she said so herself in the Angel season 1 episode "Sanctuary"). And in season 7, Spike was the only person Buffy really trusted. He watches her back when no one else does. In season 6, right before the terrible attempted rape scene in "Seeing Red", Buffy tells Spike that she doesn't trust him enough for it to be love. But in season 7, she clearly does trust him and IMO (and other countless Spuffy shippers' opinion) she also loves him and not just like a friend but romantically. The themes of forgiveness and redemption are major factors where Spuffy is concerned, which is also something I love so much about Spuffy. I love that their relationship is not easy, that it's difficult, messy and adult because real life relationships are just like that. They are not like a fairy tale but can be hard and painful and drive you crazy. And Spuffy conveys that very realistically!

    I also like the fact that the Spuffy sex in season 6 is so wild, so passionate, so kinky and unconventional (that word again)! Buffy doesn't just lie there and lets sex happen to her, she is not passive but a very active sexual partner. This also shows what a strong, modern and self-confident woman she is, she is not afraid to follow her desires and to have sex with the guy she fancies. She wants Spike so she grabs him and has sex with him. She isn't afraid of making the first move, she doesn't hold back when having sex with Spike but lets herself go completely, totally giving in to desire. Buffy isn't ashamed, well at least not in the moment when she is having sex, afterwards unfortunately she tries to deny what she has just done, proving to me that she is not so secure in her role as a woman than I'd like her to be but still.

    So I hope I haven't put you all to sleep with my long rambling.

    What are your views? Which couple do you prefer and why?

    Post away!
    165
    Bangel
    48.48%
    80
    Spuffy
    51.52%
    85

  • #2
    I don't really know about Ruffy shippers
    Hehe, I was just thinking about posting to beg for a Ruffy option. But I like to think of Ruffy as unconventional as well. I don't really mind Spuffy a whole lot in S7, at least, I just think it was drawn out too long and a tad bit unrealistic, and s6, well, that hurt Buffy therefore I hate it. I got tired of Spike in the end of s6 when they gave him screen time in every episode to show his "trials," but couldn't help but feel sorry for him at the end of "Beneath You" when he thought the soul would make Buffy love him. However, I don't give it the edge because of the s6 crap and because I just don't see how Buffy would suddenly trust Spike over her friends, who had been there for her six years, and love him at all after what he did. Even with the soul he had shown he had the willpower to fight her and hurt her (Beneath You, fight scene at the Bronze). The only realistic thing I can imagine at this point (after Same Time Same Place) is that she feels responsible for his pain and reluctantly works with him.

    One other thing I have trouble with here:
    People change and move on and that's the way it should be.
    Sure, people change and move on, but I think you're just a bit underestimating teenagers here. Not that I'm a fan of Bangel in any way, I just think teenagers have got the same ability to maintain lasting interpersonal (platonic) relationships as anyone else. I may not be able to vote, drink, etc, but does reaching some "magic number" suddenly make me able to deal with people in a compassionate, reasonable way?

    /response to previous post
    own post

    I pretty much like Ruffy because of the real feminism of it, the portrayal of Riley as a guy with his own issues ("Goodbye Iowa") & devoted to Buffy rather than "the big man who protects the little lady." In s5, I liked how they showed the slow breaking apart that had started even before the relationship started, but really wish Xander's "catalyst" speech could have ended a bit earlier, and had Buffy reach Riley in time to tell him the truth which she had hardly known. There were loads of great scenes and "chin-up" exchanges (i.e. Out of My Mind, Goodbye Iowa). You could absolutely tell that Riley was willing to stay by Buffy's side, to the death if need be. I also appreciated the realism and humanism of it, the friendship and concern rather than "OMG hot vampire" + melodrama + ubiquitous death, blood and sex metaphors. It was definitely something one could see in the real world, two people figuring out each other, themselves, and life.

    But Riley made one mistake - thought that Buffy still had a "vampire thing" (Dracula) and wanted to see how it felt to be bitten as well as to be needed. Buffy was not letting him into her mind, her identity issues and family, and did not really know it. There was a general lack of communication which I felt could be fixed with a bit of self-honesty from Buffy ("I'm still a bit burned about Angel and am not telling Riley about myself for fear he will 'turn evil' like Angel did") and feeback from Riley (actually telling her he felt left out). Unfortunately Buffy didn't really sort out the mess in her head until "Weight of the World," and Riley was collateral damage. I really think if maybe Buffy had run faster, or Riley had waited a bit longer, or Xander had said "Run" a second earlier, it would have worked out. Buffy realized when she was talking to Xander that Riley really did love her, and she really wasn't giving him her all. Buffy and Riley could have talked - for real - and worked out their issues. It was only circumstance that kept them apart, and Buffy/Riley was the healthiest relationship for Buffy, which gives it major major bonus points, and IMO one of the most caring ones on the show.
    /own post
    Last edited by redrevo; 15-06-07, 09:17 PM.
    Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
    Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

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    • #3
      I'm not sure if you would call what Buffy and Spike had in season 7 a 'romantic relationship' as such. Personally I don't think it ever reached that point, and therefore I won't count their relationship in season 7 as Spuffy.

      The thing I will say about Spuffy is that while it may have been a 'grey area realtionship', it was also the definition of unhealthy. It wasn't really about love or caring for each other. I'll admit that Bangel had its problems, but they pale in comparison.

      I would also disagree with saying that her relationship with Spike was more equal than with the other relationships. Angel didn't exactly dominate her and nor was he overprotective (at least, not while they were together). He needed her protection and support as much as she did his. As for Riley, she was always the stronger of the two and that was one of the problems, he could never be her equal and would always need her protection to a greater or lesser extent.

      Comment


      • #4
        I much prefer Buffy/Angel over Buffy/Spike. Honestly I'm hoping for Buffy/Xander and I enjoyed Buffy/Faith over any of her romantic pairings but if I had to choose between these two it's quite easy for me.

        I just think Buffy/Spike really brings Buffy down (who is my favourite character) in so many ways and made me dislike Spike throughout pretty much the majority of season six. I’ve actually always thought the writers sent out a really bad message by even letting these two characters hook up. Not only was she sleeping with an unrepentant evil killer (in season six) but some of Spike’s actions beforehand shouldn’t be “rewarded” by him getting the girl. In ‘Crush’ he ties her up and threatens to kill her if she doesn’t admit feelings for him, he steals her sweater, steals her *underwear*, gets caught sniffing her sweater in her bedroom when nobody is home and builds a shrine of her. Then of course there’s the Buffybot which Buffy rightfully points out is “obscene” and “disgusting.” I mean seriously? The guy who steals the woman’s underwear and sniffs her clothes actually gets the girl? What kind of message were they trying to send here? And why on earth would I want to support that, it’s creepy and disgusting? You don’t jump guys like that you get restraining orders against them!

        I also have a problem with the fact that in season six when she was actually sleeping with him he was still a killer who didn’t feel remorse for all the people he’d murdered. And it’s not like he no longer wanted to murder either, it’s the first thing he tries to do in ‘Smashed’ he stands by and lets Dru kill people in ‘Crush’ then feeds off one of them and in ‘As You Were’ he happily harboured demon eggs that were bred to wipe out entire human populations. He hadn’t changed.

        Buffy’s also emotionally crippled in season six and I sympathise with her a lot. My sister went through sever depression which caused her to say and do things she’d never dream of normally. She couldn’t help it, it went down a destructive path where she lost a scary amount of weight and was on the verge of dying when thankfully she managed to turn it around and build herself up again. So I’ve had to witness someone go through that horribleness and see one example of how it can cause them to be destructive towards themselves, in Buffy’s case it was her relationship with Spike. I can’t blame her for acting the way she did, she was dealing with a terribly traumatic experience after being ripped out of heaven. And I *hate* that Spike took advantage of that. He knew how emotionally damaged she was and he used it to his advantage to get her in the sack with him. He taunts her about coming back “wrong” whilst pounding on her, tells her she belongs in the dark with him and not his friends, threatens to tell her friends about them against her wishes ect. He was so harmful to her and if someone took advantage of my sister like that when she was going through a very similar thing.. Lets just say I don’t know how I’d react. It’s why I just dislike him in season six and the attempted rape doesn’t help with things, I was practically hoping like hell Xander got to stake him for that.

        In season seven Spike’s a changed man and I began to respect him again, I couldn’t blame the souled vampire for the things he did as a soulless monster so I don’t hold it as much against him. However, it does weigh in when I’m looking over at “Spuffy” as a whole because unlike with Buffy/Angel “Spuffy” is made up of her relationship with not only the vampire with a soul but the soulless vampire as well. Whereas, with Bangel their relationship ended the moment he lost his soul. But in season seven it didn’t really help matters, Buffy became scarily obsessed out of what IMO was guilt over Spike getting his soul to the point she was quite nasty to her friends and as a big Scooby lover I found that horrible.

        I just don’t think it had good influences on either of them at any stage and I never believed she loved him.

        Buffy/Angel was better because it was always clear about what it was and up front and honest about that. Buffy was actually more mature in this relationship than she was in later seasons and I feel Angel always acted in her best interests rather than his own. I really enjoyed seeing Buffy truly passionate and emotive and *happy.* Not all the time of course, this relationship certainly put her through the ringer, but happier than she was in comparison to when she was with Spike. And I really like how the show proved that having a relationship with a vampire was harmful to Buffy and limited everything she should experience and what was even better was that Angel saw that and left because of it. I have the upmost respect for him doing that and it made me like the pairing a lot more. I think Giles summed it up nicely, “Angel left here because he knew how harmful your relationship was. Spike on the other hand lacks such self-awareness.” Buffy/Angel was a better couple for Buffy, it wasn’t damaging for her and when it was, they were both sensible and selfless enough to end it.

        It also gave us the Angelus arc of season two which was just amazing and truly *epic.* Buffy/Angel helped the show out a lot in that respect, it wasn’t just a couple it was an entire storyline, it brought forth the big bad. In the end it was so much more and as someone who doesn't believe "shipping" is the most important thing in the series that works better for me. It didn't just effect Buffy and Angel, it effected the Scoobies as well.

        Really I could live through one human/vampire relationship but not another, the other felt like a re-tread. We already got told it was unhealthy way back in season three so it felt very pointless having to go through it all over again when even without all the other problems Spuffy had, it still suffered from all the same things Bangel had.. So what was the point exactly?
        Last edited by vampmogs; 08-03-09, 12:21 PM.

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        • #5
          I don't have a preference. The first time around I enjoyed both of them because they were exciting to watch for different reasons.

          Neither one of them were particularly conventional although Buffy and Angel's relationship was more defined in a way. For example Buffy on many occasions stated Angel was her boyfriend whereas she stated at least once that Spike with a soul wasn't her boyfriend and she could reconcile herself with behaviour when she was sleeping with Spike whe he was soulless. Buffy stated many times over that she loved Angel even stating that she loved him more than she will ever love anything else. With Spike it was always more ambiguous. There was the classic "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?" line which I hated but I'll go into that later, but when Angel asked whether or not she loved him she said he's in my heart and when she finally did tell him, he didn't believe she meant it and she never got the chance to affirm it. Of course Spuffy fans will always want to say she meant it while hard core bangelists will call on Spike's truth seer status and claim she never loved him and he knew it. I remain open minded.

          Angel when he was soulled was Buffy's lover and supporter and when soulless was more or less her enemy although Angel was always a morally ambiguous character and I always wondered about te demon beneath the surface and when Angelus presented himself the two of them still had feelings towards each other but for most part the lines were more defined.

          Spike on the other hand? They had sex when he was soulless and didn't (as far as we know) engage in a physical relationship and when was he ever her boyfriend?

          Some love the defied conventions of Spuffy and vascillation between self loathing and degradation and salvation, it is the true evidence that it's not always about holding hands. While I prefer the blurred lines of Wes/Lilah, I see an element of that in Spuffy and I actually enjoyed Buffy's character arc in Season 6 but then I'm an ardent Season 6 supporter in that sometime we are a prisoner of our own choices. Buffy couldn't escape the emotional consequences of her actions and for once the emotional angst was more about the existential crisis that often presents itself to young adults who go through profound life changes and Spike's identity crisis mirrored this.

          From a nostalgic point of view Bangel has that first true love thing. I preferred the relationship from Angel's perspective (not the being attracted to minor part) but that unlike Spike, it was more about reaffirming one's belief in people through love than changing to please someone(ugh I've never liked that about the Spike arc) or getting them to love you.

          In any respect I, like Mogs prefer the character arcs rather than the 'ships themselves but I'm somewhat in the middle and like I said before I don't really like the terms 'Spuffy or Bangel' because the name corrupt the individual characters Buffy belongs to Buffy no one else.
          Last edited by kana; 16-06-07, 05:02 PM.

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          • #6
            I'm a Spuffy. Always have been, always will be. I thought that Spuffy was more true than Bangel, because Teen Love does not last. Plus, Angel was like a 'Dirty Old Man', because he was...'prying' on a teen. She was 16 and he was like...200-and-something years older than she was. I know that Bangel shippers will argue that Spike was no different, that he was 100-and-something older than she was, *but* when Spike declared his love for Buffy, and when they were together, Buffy was no longer a teenager. It wasn't as bad.

            I also loved the Spuffy relationship, because you can't have love without lust. With Bangel, I felt there was no spark, no lust. And on-screen, if there is no lust, I lose interest. Spuffy howeverm was full of lust and passion. And in Season 7, the lust developed into love in the end. Buffy would never say 'I love you' to someone if she didn't mean it.

            Plus Spike is hotter than Angel.

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            ♥ He never got out of the cockadoodie car! ♥

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            • #7
              I also loved the Spuffy relationship, because you can't have love without lust.
              I beg to differ.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality/

              1% of the population, but it pretty much shows that love and lust are two separate things - yes, they very very often overlap - but they can be separate.
              Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
              Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

              Comment


              • #8
                Umm, your link says there is no such article. They've gotten rid of it in the last 18 minutes?

                Anyway I do think that there are cases of people who don't experience lust, but I think it is generally considered a problem, something they would seek medical attention/counseling for.

                Lust, attraction, chemistry-these are important parts of a romantic relationship. Spuffy had them, even when they weren't getting along it was hard to deny the attraction.
                "All I ask is that... that you try to see me."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ahm Shere View Post
                  I'm a Spuffy. Always have been, always will be. I thought that Spuffy was more true than Bangel, because Teen Love does not last. Plus, Angel was like a 'Dirty Old Man', because he was...'prying' on a teen. She was 16 and he was like...200-and-something years older than she was. I know that Bangel shippers will argue that Spike was no different, that he was 100-and-something older than she was, *but* when Spike declared his love for Buffy, and when they were together, Buffy was no longer a teenager. It wasn't as bad.
                  I would say that age is, by a very long way, the least important factor when it comes to judging those relationships. After all, Angel didn't act like a dirty old man. He didn't do things such as, for example, sniffing and stealing her clothes, building a personal 'shrine' to her or lying to her to trick her into going on 'dates' with him.

                  I also loved the Spuffy relationship, because you can't have love without lust. With Bangel, I felt there was no spark, no lust. And on-screen, if there is no lust, I lose interest. Spuffy howeverm was full of lust and passion. And in Season 7, the lust developed into love in the end. Buffy would never say 'I love you' to someone if she didn't mean it.
                  You can lust without loving. Besides, just because Buffy and Angel weren't sleeping together at every opportunity, doesn't mean there wasn't lust. It was expressed in a different way to Spuffy, but it was still there.

                  Umm, your link says there is no such article. They've gotten rid of it in the last 18 minutes?
                  Remove the last forward slash ('/') from the URL.
                  Last edited by Anon; 17-06-07, 09:31 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Anon View Post
                    I would say that age is, by a very long way, the least important factor when it comes to judging those relationships. After all, Angel didn't act like a dirty old man. He didn't do things such as, for example, sniffing and stealing her clothes, building a personal 'shrine' to her or lying to her to trick her into going on 'dates' with him.
                    But it was still bad in my point of view. And I still believe that teen love does not last anyway. If Angel truely did love her, he could have at least waited a couple of more years before Buffy was more mature and older.

                    Originally posted by Anon View Post
                    You can lust without loving. Besides, just because Buffy and Angel weren't sleeping together at every opportunity, doesn't mean there wasn't lust. It was expressed in a different way to Spuffy, but it was still there.
                    I didn't feel it, and IMO, I don't like to love without lust. (But that's because I'm a lustful person anyway ) Angel and Buffy may have had lust, but I didn't feel it. I didn't see the spark. Spuffy's lust inevitably turned into love, and it lasted. However 'twisted' or 'sick' the Spuffy relationship was to some Bangels, the Spuffy ship lasted through AR, because even though Buffy was scared and uneasy around Spike, she forgave him. And throughout Season 7, that love began to show. It may not have lasted as long as Bangel, but it would have lasted longer is Spike had not died.

                    sigpic
                    ♥ He never got out of the cockadoodie car! ♥

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                    • #11
                      I don't think there are more than a couple moments throughout 2 and a half seasons of it that you could look at Spike and Buffy together and see something healthy, especially for her. Even after the soul -- because she became almost as obsessed with him having a soul (or soooouuuuuuuul, if you read TWOP ) in Season 7 as he had been with her. Obsessed, not in love. I think we can tell because of her completely ridiculous fixation on the (untrue) idea of him being the only person she could count on (Buffy must not have watched "Never Leave Me" or "Showtime" when she counted on others while Spike was unavailable).

                      The only genuinely believable moments of them that suggested a healthy relationship were, I'd say, their scene in "After Life" when he finds Buffy at the house, rescuing her in "Once More, With Feeling", the scene where she thanks him in "End of Days", and their send off to each other in "Chosen". I won't count Spike's speech in "Touched" because, well, I thought it was also more or less untrue of the situation they were all in. It's worth noting that all these moments took place when they were NOT lovers.

                      With Angel, I saw a nominally healthier relationship, because it wasn't founded on obsession and emotional abuse. But not a healthy one. I always felt that there was no clear explanation as to why they'd fall in love with each other at all, other than that they *did*. Angel's speech about Buffy in "Helpless", who she was when he first saw her, is a big pile of BS. That's not the girl we saw in a flashback in "Becoming". And she fell in love with him based on... what? Cryptic messages? His refusal to try to save her life without being prodded? His willingness to get into a fight to the death after lying to her about what he was and refusing to try to explain himself?
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                      • #12
                        The only genuinely believable moments of them that suggested a healthy relationship were, I'd say, their scene in "After Life" when he finds Buffy at the house, rescuing her in "Once More, With Feeling"
                        Absolutely. I think S6 would have been much better for Buffy if Spike had just remained as a rock of a friend for her to lean on when she was depressed. If he was truly in love with her, he'd want what was best for her - and that would mean forging a strong emotional connection instead of a physical connection + emotional abuse from both sides. The greatest moments for Spuffy all happened between (inclusive) The Gift and Once More, With Feeling. If their relationship had stayed that way I'd be torn between wanting Spike and Riley to be near Buffy.
                        Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
                        Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Bangel all the way baby,why i dont know i just love seeing them together & i know some people would say that their relationship was wrong bcuz of the age difference i would say give me a break it's not for a real .But here i hear some people would say just bcuz it's a tv show it's didnt justify it but that's how i see it.

                          Anyway back to the main topic Bangel VS Spuffy to me Spuffy was more LUST than anythig else maybe Spike loved Buffy but she didnt & she made that clear severl times,Bangel was different to me & no one even Spuffy fans cant deny that Angel was & always be Buffy's first love.Things didnt work out between the 2 of them bcuz of so many reasons & the fact noone of her friends even supported their relationship made it even harder for both of them.
                          You Are The Only One
                          Who Ever Touched My Heart
                          It Will Always Be Yours.

                          To The Icon Maker,Thanks

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                          • #14
                            It might not be real, but Buffy was still underage even when they were intimate. Bangel to me, is not only wrong because of the age, but its boring. Buffy and Angel are both such wonderful characters but they are both so much better on their own, or with anyone but each other. Angel in particular, is a bore when he is with Buffy, there is no excuse for such a layered character to come across so boring. And yet. Angel may have been Buffys first love, that doesn't make it her best relationship, or good for her. I dispute Buffy being Angels first love no matter what he says. He did love Darla, thats shown all through Ats, it was a different love as Angelus, but it carried through to when he had a soul or her reappearance wouldnt have bothered him so much in Ats S2. Anyway. thats OT.

                            Buffy's friends didn't disaprove of her relationship, bar Xander. Willow and even Giles were always supportive of it, so I don't understand that reasoning that it made it harder for them sorry.

                            Spuffy was about more than just lust. In season 7 they had love, trust, understanding, faith in each other. Had they had the time, it would have progressed even further. Buffy may not have loved Spike pre season 7, but she certainly had feelings for him in season 6 despite her denials, or him sleeping with Anya would not have crushed her. And really, Spuffy was interesting. It wasn't always a healthy relationship, there was violence in season 6, but there was also an understanding and it wasnt all bad.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I agree that Spuffy was different bcuz both of the ( Buffy & Angel ) didnt have the same chances that Spuffy had,which wasnt fair at all.I man their were given chance after another first was Spike's Chip,then Buffy brought back by her Friends,Then Spike got his soul back after all of these nothing ever happend that reuind their (Healthy Realtionship).

                              It seems like everything came in time to put them together but still their relationship couldnt come to what Bangel have,Both of them ( Spike & Buffy) Knew whatever is between them it's not love at least from Buffy's Part,Spike himself knew it.

                              I dont call Bangel realtionship is boring more than thye both what would happend if they stayed together & they admit that would cause them pain & hurt based on what they've been through already.
                              Last edited by Salvation; 18-06-07, 01:40 AM.
                              You Are The Only One
                              Who Ever Touched My Heart
                              It Will Always Be Yours.

                              To The Icon Maker,Thanks

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Well - Spuffy all the way for me.

                                But i didn't *hate* Bangel. I guess it was what it was for the time. It was sweet in the early moments of the relationship but I couldn't help but feel Buffy's unhappiness everytime she was with Angel afterwards. And - the curse - well that's just a bad thing all around.

                                Spuffy attracted me because it was two people who were REALLY unlikely to get together - getting together!! (HHHHmmm... Did somone say "unconventional"?? LOL!!) Yes, there was a lot of LUST and attraction, chemistry and VAVAVAVOOM! But there was a lot of raw honesty between Buffy and Spike.

                                Sometimes relationships like Spuffy that start out all fireworks kinda fizzle out. But even when Spike came back with a soul and there was no S-E-X there was still a connection between them - the relationship went beyond and had the chance of becoming more.

                                But I will say - a lot of my Spuffy love comes from my Spike love. (I also like Sparmony, Spawn, Spaith, Spike and a fencepost - just give me Spike doing what Spike does!!)
                                -TP<3
                                "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                                - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Ahm Shere View Post
                                  But it was still bad in my point of view. And I still believe that teen love does not last anyway. If Angel truely did love her, he could have at least waited a couple of more years before Buffy was more mature and older.
                                  Age really isn't a factor in the Buffyverse. One could also say it was wrong for Buffy to conceal weapons without a permit, but we all know the circumstances surrounding Buffy were different, so why not apply this to her relationships? Furthermore, whilst Buffy may have not been a teenager when she was with Spike, Spike was still much older than Buffy and the 'dirty old man' title could still apply. Lets also not forget the scene in 'Schoolhard' in which Spike watches teen Buffy dance in the Bronze, something Spuffy fans convince themselves is the first sign of his attraction towards Buffy. Is he then not a dirty man?

                                  If teen love doesn't last why is it that in season seven Buffy states that she will love Angel more than she will ever love anything in this life? It still seems pretty lasting to me, also considering she admitted she'd thought into the future about a possiblity of them two being together in 'Chosen.' I think Bangel was a lot more than teen love, the two were clearly connected on a level we hadn't seen with any of Buffy's other relationships. She could physically sense Angel when he was around, there was a pretty big connection there.

                                  I didn't feel it, and IMO, I don't like to love without lust. (But that's because I'm a lustful person anyway ) Angel and Buffy may have had lust, but I didn't feel it. I didn't see the spark. Spuffy's lust inevitably turned into love, and it lasted. However 'twisted' or 'sick' the Spuffy relationship was to some Bangels, the Spuffy ship lasted through AR, because even though Buffy was scared and uneasy around Spike, she forgave him. And throughout Season 7, that love began to show. It may not have lasted as long as Bangel, but it would have lasted longer is Spike had not died.
                                  How could you say they didn't feel lust when they couldn't keep their hands off eachother after he came back, even when they knew if they gave in to temptation Angel would loose his soul again? Their lust was one of the main reasons the Scoobies were worried about the relationship starting up again, and then of course we have Issue #3 of season eight, which clearly shows Buffy lusts after both Spike and Angel.

                                  As far as the attempted rape goes, Buffy never once stated she forgave Spike. IMO she didn't feel like she could forgive Spike, seeing that he wasn't the same person who raped her in season seven. Buffy knows better than anyone how dramatically a soul changes someone, I don't believe she was facing the same vampire in season that she had in previous seasons, and IMO I don't believe Buffy believed this either. Nor did they ever have a relationship in season seven, I don't really think you could say it lasted when Buffy tried to move on with another guy, Spike clearly was flirting with Faith and they never actually 'got back together.' When Spike asked what the night they spent together means Buffy asks if it has to mean anything, it really doesn't sound like they were together to me. And then we have Buffy saying she loves Spike, only for him to see the truth in it and deny it.

                                  I'd also just like to point out I'm not a big Bangel fan, I'm pro Bander or nothing at all, but I still think the Spuffy relationship was sick and twisted

                                  Originally posted by Beck View Post
                                  It might not be real, but Buffy was still underage even when they were intimate. Bangel to me, is not only wrong because of the age, but its boring. Buffy and Angel are both such wonderful characters but they are both so much better on their own, or with anyone but each other. Angel in particular, is a bore when he is with Buffy, there is no excuse for such a layered character to come across so boring. And yet. Angel may have been Buffys first love, that doesn't make it her best relationship, or good for her. I dispute Buffy being Angels first love no matter what he says. He did love Darla, thats shown all through Ats, it was a different love as Angelus, but it carried through to when he had a soul or her reappearance wouldnt have bothered him so much in Ats S2. Anyway. thats OT.
                                  Bangel was far better for Buffy than Spuffy ever was. Angel never manipulated Buffy, never tried to lure her away from her friends and tell her she belonged in the dark. He never threatened to tell her friends about them if she didn't sleep with him again and nor did he ever taunt her about coming back 'wrong.' Most importantly, he never attempted to rape her either.

                                  Angel had never been in a proper relationship with Darla having a soul, he never got the chance to love her because the time they had been together he was Angelus. Angel states this in s2, and of course there is going to be a connection there but it was never love. Love was when he staked Darla for Buffy without a second thought, something he couldn't do in LA for his friends. Love isn't threatening to kill Darla, kicking her out and not loosing his soul when he slept wit her. That actually sounds a lot like Spuffy to me

                                  I tend to agree Angel is a far more interesting character outside of Btvs, but I wouldn't say that is a result of Bangel, I found him just as interesting in Pangs, The Yoko Factor and Chosen. I think it was Btvs that was making him boring, not the Bangel relationship.


                                  Spuffy was about more than just lust. In season 7 they had love, trust, understanding, faith in each other. Had they had the time, it would have progressed even further. Buffy may not have loved Spike pre season 7, but she certainly had feelings for him in season 6 despite her denials, or him sleeping with Anya would not have crushed her. And really, Spuffy was interesting. It wasn't always a healthy relationship, there was violence in season 6, but there was also an understanding and it wasnt all bad.
                                  Spuffy wasn't always about trust and faith in eachother in season seven. Buffy wanted to find prove that Spike was killing again, she states this to the scoobies and to Spike himself when he denies she has proof and she replies that she will find some. Buffy also looked pretty ready to dust Spike in Sleeper until she realised that something else was controlling him.

                                  I share the same opinion as many in saying Spuffy wasn't bad until they actually started hooking up, this is when the manipulation and degredation began. Anything before that was fine, I had no problems with Spike being their as a semi-friend for Buffy, but she was sleeping with a cold blooded murderer, one who doesn't deny he is like a serial killer in prison. Nothing good can come from that.

                                  Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
                                  Well - Spuffy all the way for me.

                                  But i didn't *hate* Bangel. I guess it was what it was for the time. It was sweet in the early moments of the relationship but I couldn't help but feel Buffy's unhappiness everytime she was with Angel afterwards. And - the curse - well that's just a bad thing all around.
                                  And you didn't feel Buffy's unhappiness when she was around Spike? Buffy brokedown sobbing because she was sleeping with Spike to Tara in 'Dead Things' and he makes her so depressed after he threatens to tell her friends about them in 'Normal Again' that she tips out Willow's antidote and never wants to go back to Sunnydale. Buffy has never been so depressed in her life.

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                                  • #18
                                    I guess, I can see the arguements for both sides, as I was a fan of Bangel during seasons 1-3 and Spuffy in season 5-7.

                                    But, of course, I voted for Spuffy.

                                    The Bangel ship was sweet and angsty and tragic. A good ship should be, especially when dealing with someone so young.

                                    Spuffy was hot, lusty, sexy, and adult. And being and adult, I find that more appealing. Buffy grew up. She experienced adult relationships. And I'm sorry, most are not sweet and angsty and tragic. Most are lusty, sexy, and if we're lucky, lead to love. Which Spuffy accomplished. The fact that Spike would seek a soul to be what Buffy needed was the most giving act of love. His touched speech was so, well, touching. And I BELIEVED Buffy meant what she said to him in Chosen, even if he didn't. How could anybody not love him?
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by vampmogs
                                      And you didn't feel Buffy's unhappiness when she was around Spike? Buffy brokedown sobbing because she was sleeping with Spike to Tara in 'Dead Things' and he makes her so depressed after he threatens to tell her friends about them in 'Normal Again' that she tips out Willow's antidote and never wants to go back to Sunnydale. Buffy has never been so depressed in her life.
                                      I agree that Buffy was horribly depressed at this time. I don't, however, believe that Spike was the cause of it. She had just been pulled from heaven, her life was going nowhere: she was working in a fast food place and fighting Geeks. Yes, she was depressed, but Spike was her way of coping with her sadness not the cause of it. I'm not saying he was the most healthy way of coping, because I do agree that that relationship damaged as much as it healed but I don't think it was the root of Buffy's pain.

                                      More generally: I do like Spuffy, particularly in season 7. I would firmly say that yes you can have a relationship without lust. Some people genuinely don't feel lust in the same way as others. Asexuality is not a psychological disorder. I'm not saying that Buffy or Spike were asexual or anything, but I think that at some points in your life and in a relationship between two people they can be connected by love rather than lust. It doesn't mean that lust isn't there or that it won't appear, although that could be the case. It just means that two people need each other, but they don't necessarily need sex at that point in their lives, hard as it is for some to accept that there could be anything not involving the loins.

                                      I think season 7 Spuffy was quite beautiful in its own understated way. I liked how they were figuring each other out once more, and how they could be so intimate with each other without the physical intimacy they'd experienced before.

                                      I think their relationship in season 6 was bad in some ways because Buffy was using it to deal with her sadness, and Spike wanted so much more from her, but I think it's an integral part of the show and a far more interesting exploration of the characters than Bangel ever was.
                                      "When people call people nerds, mostly what they are saying is, 'You like stuff', which is just not a good insult at all, like 'You are too enthusiastic about the miracle of human consciousness'."
                                      -John Green

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                                      • #20
                                        I have to admit that the second Spike walked on the scene and met Buffy in School Hard I was just itching to see some Spuffy action. What compelled me more was the relationship between Angel and Spike, and then Angelus and Spike, and when the end of season two rolled around and Spike went to Buffy to 'help' her, I was just squee-ing. I was so annoyed to see Spike go the way in which he did, but loved his little re-appearance in season three.

                                        Once Spike became a regular in season four and got the chip, that was me hooked on the Spuffy aspect. I adored Spike's character and more importantly the banter he and Buffy always shared, to me it just felt like there was always sexual tension there and when Something Blue aired I think I watched that episode like a hundred times.

                                        By the time season five rolled around I had already been knee-deep in spuffy fanfiction and so the 'spike loves buffy' revelation was just awesome to see it on screen. His weird twisted obsession and his idea of love, was just typical of Spike, and there is no amount of Bangel moments in the world that could ever have my eyes glued to the screen as much as they were at the end of Intervention, or that moment in The Gift when she re-invites Spike into her home.

                                        I guess what I'm trying to say is my heart was taken by Spuffy right from the start, and so when everything unfolded on the show I was already majorly bias considering I had been waiting for it to happen since season two, lol. (Very similar to the Cordelia & Angel relationship I had been dying to see for as long as I can remember!)

                                        Well that's my answer, I hope that satisfies the reason why I voted Spuffy, :P Although I have to say if I am reading a fic I still read pre-season-six fics for some reason, who knows!

                                        Sayjay
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                                        Art by Sayjay at Radiance

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