JUST how STRONG ARE vampires?

[lee]

so how strong are they?
Sometimes you will see vampires do incredible feats of strength, like a random vamp
busting/crushing a iron door(the Harvest) or spike punching someone 20 ft through the
air(tabula rasa)
Other times its extreme stealth and speed, like when in School hard, that girls walking with 2 guys, and Spike manages to snatch the guys away in a second without the girl even realizing. theres loads of examples.

but other times, instead of using these skills, they actually loose to humans and seem to have quite ordinary strength.
Maybe just inconsistencies by the writers?

[Nina]

I never got the rules for vampire strength, they seem to change a lot.

Age matters, older vampires are much stronger than younger vampires.

Darla is stronger than Angel, and Darla is older. The Master was very old and very strong etc.

But it doesn't say everything, Spike kicked Angel's ass in Destiny ... of course can you wank it away by saying that Angel was almost depressed and didn't went for it like Spike. But Angel is two times as old, but the power differences are less than you would expect by that age difference.

Other point is the physical strength as a human being,

Spoiler:

Vampire Gunn seems to be very strong and he is only a vampire for a couple of weeks/months. You can explain this by saying that Gunn was a very strong warrior as a human.

The same for Angelus, Liam was a strong man and as far as we know ... Angelus was a strong vampire since the start.

And maybe the bloodlines have a role as well, the childeren of the Master are strong vampires; Darla, Luke, Angelus, Drusilla and Spike.

And there is a big difference between Ats and BtVS. In BtVS the vampires are often less strong than in Ats. If you see how easy Angel is knocked down in the early seasons of BtVS and if you compare that to his fights in Ats ...

It's a fact that Angel is less strong than Buffy and Angel is one of the stronger vampires. The same for Spike, that weird scene that Spike can't get the troll hammer of the ground and that Buffy can swing it easily around. But both vampires showed more than once that they are not easily beaten.

I think that the smart and/or important vampires can survive longer and get stronger. And if they are strong enough, they can combine strength, intelligence and experience into a good weapon.

[lee]

I would say Angels stronger than Darla. But i think bloodline plays a big part.
Think on the *fanged four*. Master-darla-angel-drusilla-spike. This could be the reason they are
all legendary vampires.
I do agree age plays a part, but Kakistos was supposed to be this ancient legendary vampire but Faith didnt have too much trouble beating him.

Heres another thing i dont get, i always thought the Master was 2000 years old. Ive heard people say he's only about 600 but if he was so old that his bones didnt dust, and if you consider Kakistos is ancient and his bones dusted as normal, id say the master was over 2000?

[Nina]

I always thought that nobody knew how old the Master was, only that he was probably the oldest vampire ever. He is not 600 years old, Darla was already 500 years old and the master already looked very old when he sired her.

My theory, the master has anything to do with the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius (The Master was the boss of the Aurelis bloodline) who lived like 1800 years ago ... so I always take that as the Master's age ...

[vampmogs]

Heres another thing i dont get, i always thought the Master was 2000 years old. Ive heard people say he's only about 600 but if he was so old that his bones didnt dust, and if you consider Kakistos is ancient and his bones dusted as normal, id say the master was over 2000?

Remember that Kakistos couldn't be staked by a normal stake though. Faith had to use the massive shaft of wood to dust him after Buffy tried with a normal stake two times. So whilst it doesn't appear he was as old as the Master his body had become tougher.

The whole vampire thing is pretty inconsistent. Take for example Angel's inability to break through the wire cage that Kendra locks him in during 'What's My Line Part I.' Compare that to Angel punching his way through the cellar wall that Gunn locks him in during 'War Zone' or through the wall of Lorne's bedroom as they flee from Holtz.

It really just depend on what the story needs to say at the time. Nina also mentioned "Destiny" which is a good example of this. Angel seems far more dominant than Spike in "In the Dark" during their fight in the car lot whereas they're evenly matched and Spike actually beats him in "Destiny." If you look at Btvs through the seasons it appears you'd say Spike became weaker than stronger so it doesn't make a great deal of sense other than the writers needing him to win.

And it goes for slayers as well. All the potentials in 'Chosen' were as strong as Buffy even though in season one Buffy had trouble with a couple of normal vampires. And now in season 8 it's become clear being an older and more experienced slayer does make a difference with Buffy being more dominant than the new slayers (which makes sense) and Faith over Gigi.

The writers don't seem to focus too much on the physical side of things with the super powered folk of the show

[lee]

The master probably wouldt have died from a normal stake, he needed to land on a big wooden spike thing.
Id say Spike has the edge over Angel in a fight, he has more fighting intelligence and passion for the win.

I think the toughest regulars,
1. Buffy
2.Faith
3. Spike
4. Angel

[Nina]

I doubt that actually. Angel won everytime, only that one time he didn't. And the writers called it tv-justice (how I love that word) because Angel will get the Shanshu anyway ... so Spike had to win something, and I use Angel's passionless state in that episode as an excuse (the same did Angel I believe). I think that Angel is the better and stronger warrior of the two, but that day he wasn't because Angel was very down in the beginning of season 5 and he lacked the passion to beat Spike because he did that so many times already and he wasn't sure about the shanshu.

My list of toughest regulars;

1. Willow
2. Illyria
3. Buffy (still, but I think that Angel is smarter in his way of fighting .. more talent for tactics etc.)
4. Angel
5. Faith
6. Spike
7. Connor

[lee]

Ok, ive thought of all the scraps, arguments and punches thrown.
Apart from that little scuffle in 'in the dark', when does Angel beat Spike?
Whos killed 2 slayers?

[vampmogs]

The master probably wouldt have died from a normal stake, he needed to land on a big wooden spike thing.
Id say Spike has the edge over Angel in a fight, he has more fighting intelligence and passion for the win.

I think the toughest regulars,
1. Buffy
2.Faith
3. Spike
4. Angel

I remember once over on Buffyworld forums (RIP) we had a very long, long, long... debate on this.

It was mainly over who was the strongest fighter out of Angel and Spike are ended up with us dissecting every single aspect of their fights and neither side budged.

I can't help but see Angel as the person who would win, mainly as how he was portrayed on his own series. He did things that we never saw Spike do, he faced things we never saw Spike face and it's really hard not to picture him winning given that. They’re pretty much equal though I just can’t help but see Angel have the edge after seeing him bring the Beast to it’s knees, fighting the demon in Jasmine’s dimension ect.

And it’s the same with Buffy and Angel. Given the slayer’s strength and the fact Buffy’s already beat him before I think the text tells us Buffy would win. But given the extraordinary and cooler stunts on Angel his character looks so tough it’s hard to picture Buffy really taking him, at least as easily as she probably could now.

I’d probably put it as

1) Buffy & Angel
2) Faith & Spike

It’s so inconsistent though because it’s based entirely on who the writer needs to win. As for example, Angel was originally written to beat Spike in “Destiny” but they realised Spike had to win for the story and changed it. Or the fact Buffy has beat Faith on a number of occasions yet in “No Future For You” Faith technically overpowered Buffy and could have drowned her in the pool they fell into.

Really it’d make sense for Buffy to be able to beat Faith. She had a three year head start over Faith as the slayer and it’s been stated on at least two occasions Buffy grows stronger everyday. Combine that with the fact Buffy concentrated far harder than Faith on training and it makes sense she’d be able to beat her. And it’d also make sense Angel could beat Spike. Given how vampires have been portrayed, age seems to be a factor and Angel’s got quite the head start on Spike so he should be stronger.

Then you also have to take into account the lame plot devices that save the characters. As for example, Buffy beats the hell out of Spike in ‘Halloween’ he didn’t stand a chance, yet in ‘Harsh Light of Day’ he puts up more of a fight. In ‘In The Dark’ Angel completely dominates Spike yet Spike is equal to him and wins in ‘Destiny.’

And you’ve got the start of season 2 with Angel wrestling and barley able to kill other vampires and by the end of season 2 he’s managed to corner Buffy against a wall with a sword to her face. Same goes for Spike, when they wanted to portray him as the new big threat he can knock around vamps easily but in season six when Buffy’s gone he struggles against normal vampires even with the Scoobies pitching in.

Basically the writers don’t give a toss about consistency concerning this stuff.

Ok, ive thought of all the scraps, arguments and punches thrown.
Apart from that little scuffle in 'in the dark', when does Angel beat Spike?

Angel had been more dominant than Spike their whole life leading up to "Destiny." You see Angelus shoving him around in the flashbacks, he considered himself the boss and as much as Spike tried to play up he fell in line. That's why the writers described it as 'TV Justice' and changed it to make Spike win, because he'd always been beaten down by Angel/us throughout his (un)life. We saw a bit of this in 'Why We Fight' when Angel bosses Spike around and orders him to flee from the ship before the sunlight goes up. Spike did what he was told, even if he played up. And for someone who only really respected violence wether he'd admit it or not I think it's fair to say he knew Angelus would win in a scuffle. Why else would he follow his command?

Whos killed 2 slayers?

We could list all the opponents who they've both fought and Angel would win, as you'd expect because he was the star of his own show and fought the bad guys whilst Buffy usually did that on Btvs where Spike was. We have to also take into account that Angelus was never really interested in seeking out slayers to fight. But we saw him fight Buffy in 'Innocence' and actually for a while beat her down (though you can chalk that up to her emotional struggles at the time) and saw him nearly kill her in 'Becoming Part II.' We also saw Angelus beat the crap out of Faith as well and Angel managed to hold Dana long enough to have her shot with the tranq gun whereas Spike was defeated by her. So it isn't as if Angel can't fight slayers only as Angelus he never sought them out like Spike did.

Both vamps have to rely on luck to beat the slayers though. Who knows what would have happened to Angel if Wes hadn't been there with the tranq gun when he was fighting Dana. And we saw that Spike was nearly staked by the chinese slayer when she has him pinned up against the wall but the explosion caused her to loose her balance and she ended up loosing the fight. Sames goes for the subway train when Nikki Wood had him pinned down and was knocking him around, the shadows go over the train, and Spike manages to get out of her grip when she can't see. Even Spike chalks up the fights to "luck" in 'The Yoko Factor.' Really depends on the day, and who the writers want to win

[Nina]

Ok, ive thought of all the scraps, arguments and punches thrown.
Apart from that little scuffle in 'in the dark', when does Angel beat Spike?
Whos killed 2 slayers?

It's not shown but it's more than once stated that Destiny was the first time that Spike beated Angel and that it was not really their second fight.

And Angel didn't kill 2 slayers because he didn't care about killing slayers (not until Buffy, and that was another reason) ... besides, there is still the possibility that he killed a Romanian Slayer.

[lee]

Romanian slayer? that would explain the bit in Fool for love.

Drusilla: ''Spike just killed a slayer''
Darla: ''Did you hear?''
Angel: ''Well, i guess that makes you one of us then''

I know it wasnt written in it, but i always assumed all the fanged four were slayer killers.

[vampmogs]

Could you explain that line of thinking to me again Nina? I remember reading a while ago fans speculating that the gypsy girl was in fact a slayer? Is that what you're hinting at? I remember it was a pretty convincing argument actually, care to elaborate

Romanian slayer? that would explain the bit in Fool for love.

Drusilla: ''Spike just killed a slayer''
Darla: ''Did you hear?''
Angel: ''Well, i guess that makes you one of us then''

I know it wasn’t written in it, but i always assumed all the fanged four were slayer killers.

Well Spike killed two and Dru killed Kendra so they both qualify. And the Master does state in 'The Harvest' that it's been too long since his minions have faced a slayer. Considering Darla was a minion of his it's very likely she's come across a slayer or two in her time. Though I doubt she'd go looking for one to hunt much like Angelus wouldn't either. They weren't into the brutality of a fight, though both very capable of holding their own. Angelus considered savage fighting as animalistic which is ironic, considering how good he is at it and how much joy he got out of slapping Faith around.

[Nina]

Could you explain that line of thinking to me again Nina? I remember reading a while ago fans speculating that the gypsy girl was in fact a slayer? Is that what you're hinting at? I remember it was a pretty convincing argument actually, care to elaborate

Nile pointed out in another thread the different girls in the scenes about Romania. There are more scenes of Angelus and Darla in Romania, and in the most of them you see a gypsy girl but in another one you see a blond girl being captured. We find out in Damage that there was a slayer who spoke Romanian ... so it's possible that the blond girl was a slayer.

The other theory is that the Gypsy girl was a slayer because she was so special to the gypsies. I think that her being a potential is more likely. Also here is the fact that Dana spoke Romanian an important argument.

And I did forget about Faith, Angelus would've killed/sired her if she wasn't drugged. He did win the fight between them ...

[lee]

??? When did Angel slap Faith around?
Faith beat Angel in revelations. and in 5 by 5 id say Faith could have beaten Angel, but she had that 'death wish' slayers get.
If you mean Release, well, that was only because angelus had Beast on his side, and, i would think angelus is a more intimidating fighter than angel/

[vampmogs]

Nile pointed out in another thread the different girls in the scenes about Romania. There are more scenes of Angelus and Darla in Romania, and in the most of them you see a gypsy girl but in another one you see a blond girl being captured. We find out in Damage that there was a slayer who spoke Romanian ... so it's possible.

The other theory is that the Gypsy girl was a slayer because she was so special to the gypsies. I think that her being a potential is more likely.

That'd be cool, would also give another reason for the Buffy/Angel relationship to hit such a nerve with the gypsy elders.

And I really like the connection with Dana speaking Romanian in 'Damage.' I always assumed she mentioned something concerning being the Chosen One or killing vampires in her rant, but how awesome would it be if she took on the persona of the girl Angelus and Darla killed and Angel remembered some of the things she was saying? It's very possible given Dana thought she was Nikki Wood at one point.

And it'd also add an extra layer to Angel being so frustrated with Spike and his "don't give a piss" attitude about Dana and the slayers he killed without a soul. It'd have reminded Angel of one of his horrible acts and made the whole thing a lot closer to home a lot like Dana referencing Nikki and the Chinse slayer did for Spike.

And I did forget about Faith, Angelus would've killed/sired her if she wasn't drugged. He did beat her ...

I think it depends a lot on their emotions. In 'Five By Five' Faith is beating the crap out of Angelus because she's out of control and he doesn't want to kill her. In this episode Faith doesn't want to kill Angelus because she doesn't want to loose Angel and it's also possible she let herself to be captured so the drug Orpheus would enter his bloodstream instead of it just being a precaution. Also entirely possible the drug was effecting her fighting abilities now that I think about it.

??? When did Angel slap Faith around?
Faith beat Angel in revelations. and in 5 by 5 id say Faith could have beaten Angel, but she had that 'death wish' slayers get.
If you mean Release, well, that was only because angelus had Beast on his side, and, i would think angelus is a more intimidating fighter than angel/

In 'Revelations' Angel was still weakened from his 100 years of torture in Hell. They play this up until 'Lovers Walk' where Buffy says he's still weak from his experience. We seen in 'Enemies' with his strength back that Faith is nowhere near as able to take him out so easily. Angel actually knocks her around a bit then to and is enjoying her straddling him more than being worried about his safety.

Angelus could have killed Faith with the shotgun at the start of the fight during 'Release,' he had Faith on the floor and she only survived because he didn't want her to die that way. He was the more dominant throughout the fight. He is punching or kicking her repeatedly on the floor on at least two occasions throughout the fight, and also manages to catch up to her when they're jumping around and throw her off the railings back down onto the floor.

There's that part when he's calling her a killer as he keeps hitting her in the face and there's also the part where he kicks her across the floor and she's coughing up blood. He was at an advantage almost the entire fight.

Faith also failed to catch him outside the Hyperion as well, they exchange blows and blocks and Angelus kicks her in the face which sends her to the floor, giving him the opportunity to hold Wes and keep him hostage.

And then of course he sweeps her off her legs and bites her, if Faith didn’t mean to be grabbed (it's actually possible she planned this so she could drug him), it’s fair to say Angelus would have killed her if not for the drug Orpheus in her blood.

[Nina]

??? When did Angel slap Faith around?
Faith beat Angel in revelations. and in 5 by 5 id say Faith could have beaten Angel, but she had that 'death wish' slayers get.
If you mean Release, well, that was only because angelus had Beast on his side, and, i would think angelus is a more intimidating fighter than angel/

I mean that one time before Orpheus (I don't remember the episode). He bites her because he wants to sire her.

And I really like the connection with Dana speaking Romanian in 'Damage.' I always assumed she mentioned something concerning being the Chosen One or killing vampires in her rant, but how awesome would it be if she took on the persona of the girl Angelus and Darla killed and Angel remembered some of the things she was saying? It's very possible given Dana thought she was Nikki Wood at one point.

That would be great, too bad that he never talked to Dana. It could've been very interesting.

[lee]

Killed 2 slayers.
Almost killed buffy till her mom saved her.
Almost killed buffy again in out of my mind.
Willing to be tortured to death rather than give up Dawn to Glory.
Fought through demon trials to become the first vampire to choose to get his soul back.
Gave his life in chosen, to become a true champion.
When the chips were down, he beat and could have killed Angel.

Id say thats a more impressive list than Angel or Faith.?
I dont think he got weaker through the seasons.
He may not have been a leader, but he had more drive and determination for the win.

[vampmogs]

That would be great, too bad that he never talked to Dana. It could've been very interesting.

I still hold hope that Dana will appear in Buffy season 8. I hope Joss hasn't forgot about her

I actually think it'd be a really cool way for it to be revealed to Buffy that Spike is alive. I could just imagine Dana rambling about past slayers, mentioning Spike and Buffy assuming she's talking about the past only to realise through her muttering that she's referring to a recent encounter with the guy. Can you imagine Buffy’s face; priceless.

And since I don’t think they’ll be any major crossovers in Buffy season 8 with either Spike or Angel, it could be used to further progress Buffy’s feelings of isolation. In ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ she’s crying because everyone leaves her. Imagine if she found out Spike was alive but hadn’t come to her, it’d only make her feel more abandoned by her partners.

Though I doubt the Spuffies of the fandom would be satisfied with that.

Almost killed buffy till her mom saved her.
Almost killed buffy again in out of my mind.

Well really there's an assumption there they were killing blows which doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

Buffy has been hit by far larger and harder objects them a wooden beam and has survived, there's only an assumption that could be a killing blow.

And we saw Holden in 'Conversations With Dead People' lean in for the bite just like Spike did and Buffy managed to throw Holden off her, so again there's an assumption Buffy couldn't do the same with Spike.

They're actually no different to when Angelus has a sword to Buffy's face. Only in both those cases we actually saw the outcome and what Buffy did to save herself whereas Spike was interrupted before even delivering the blow. If she can catch a sword's blame through her palms from such a close range, it's not illogical to suggest she could have caught or avoided the wooden beam, and we've already got evidence she's capable of surviving a vamp bite to the neck.

Willing to be tortured to death rather than give up Dawn to Glory.

Angel endured torture from Spike and Marcus during 'In The Dark' and refused to give up the location of the gem of Amara.

Not to mention living through 100 years of torture between season 2 and season 3 of Buffy. Giles tells Buffy it'd take someone of "extraordinary character" to have any sense of self after that.

Fought through demon trials to become the first vampire to choose to get his soul back.

Angel went through the demon trials during 'The Trial' to give Darla a second chance at life. The host for the trials say that Angel is the only person who lasted more than a few seconds against his first challenge, which was a warrior demon.

Gave his life in chosen, to become a true champion.

Angel was willing to give up his own life in 'The Zeppo,' in the episode 'Hero' and in the episode 'The Trial.'

When the chips were down, he beat and could have killed Angel.

For over a century Angel beat Spike in every encounter, and the fight in 'Destiny' was far more even than the fight in 'In The Dark' when Angel was un-mistakenly dominant over Spike.

Id say thats a more impressive list than Angel or Faith.?

Angel has a very impressive list.

* Was the only one who ever managed to bring the Beast to its' knees
* Beat Hamilton who had the power of the Wolf, the Ram and the Heart in his veins
* Beat the very large warrior demon in Jasmine's dimension who held the key to defeating her
* Had the killing blow but decided not to do it due to his morals against the demon champion during 'The Ring' who had already killed 20 other demons in 20 other rounds.
* Managed to hold his own against both Darla and Dru in the greenhouse
* Defeated the vampire James and Elizabeth
* Was the only person ever to defeat the warrior demon in the demon trials that could re-generate itself even if decapitated and cut up.
* Killed the werewolf in s5 with a pen, the joke was Spike took four hours to kill one
* Beat Lindsey and his new found powers
* Managed to hold his own against Dana the Vampire Slayer long enough for her to be shot with the tranq gun
* Killed the whole group of demon warriors hired by Darla and Dru to be their army
* Defeated Skip who was practically indestructible
* Managed to beat Spike, Gunn and Wes all to the floor when they attacked him at the same time during 'Power Play.'
* Took out the three demon assassins sent by Cvus Vail to kill Connor

And you could go on...

He may not have been a leader, but he had more drive and determination for the win.

Than Angel in 'Destiny' yeah. Angel admits this and it's even explained as the reason Spike won. But Cordy rejuvenated Angel's determination to win and we saw him slam Spike to the ground in 'You're Welcome.'

I don’t mean to demean the accomplishments Spike has made as a fighter but I think one could come up with a much more impressive list for Angel’s character. Which is to be expected considering he was the star of his own show and naturally was inclined to fight more big bads and deadly demons on screen than Spike who was second fiddle to Buffy on hers.

[lee]

Yeah, Angels a class act. Just so you know, my faves are
Spike, Faith, Angel, Buffy and giles.
I think angel is a great warrior.
Talking of James, him and Penn were exellent fighters, probably because Angel sired them. That would fit
in with the theory that bloodline plays a major part in how strong a vamp will become!
I mean, if Kate wasnt there to save Angel, Penn was almost ready to kill him. And James was some fighter too.

[vampmogs]

Yeah, Angels a class act. Just so you know, my faves are
Spike, Faith, Angel, Buffy and giles.
I think angel is a great warrior.
Talking of James, him and Penn were exellent fighters, probably because Angel sired them. That would fit
in with the theory that bloodline plays a major part in how strong a vamp will become!
I mean, if Kate wasnt there to save Angel, Penn was almost ready to kill him. And James was some fighter too.

If three of your favourite characters are Angel, Spike and Giles I know at least one person on these forums who you aren't going to agree with much. I'll let you discover that yourself

My favourites are Buffy, Xander and Willow I'm a big softy for the core Scoobies, I guess you can fit in Giles there as well. They're always my favourites I feel the biggest connection to them because I watched Btvs from the very start and have fond memories of those characters from a very young age. But close after are Angel and Cordy who I also have a really soft spot for and then Spike and Faith after that.

Yeah Penn was an interesting guy. It's interesting that he says living with the humans has actually made Angel weaker because I think it works both ways. Yeah it made Angel to compromise his position because he was worried about Kate but humanity also gave him a reason to fight so it made him stronger.

And yeah I agree with your bloodline theory. I think it's a really good explanation as to why all our main vampires seem to be more capable than your average vamp stake fodder. I guess they just don't make vamps anymore like they did back in the day.