"I'm Angel, I beat the bad guys!"- The Angel Fan Club

[vampmogs]

Hey

There once was an Angel club in this section, I think started by NileQT, but it looks like it's gone so I thought I'd start it up again.

This thread is basically to discuss Angel, what you love about him, what you dislike about him, his relationships, his mission for redemption, the dichotomy between Angel and Angelus or perhaps lack thereof, and his friendships.

Angel is one of my favourite characters in the verse, and I personally think he's often underrated. He doesn't carry the bravado that Spike does, isn't as in-your-face humorous as Anya, but he's a very complex and rich character. Who's subtleties are just as interesting as the more obvious attributes of those around him. He's incredibly complex and the shades of grey in his character are fascinating. I’ve enjoyed him from his very first appearance in ‘Welcome to the Hellmouth’ and enjoyed watching his journey from the mysterious stranger, to vampire in love, to vampire champion and now human champion. Arguably, he's one of the most important characters in the verse, and the longest character in the verse with eight seasons of the Buffyverse to his name. He's also unique in being the only character to star in the pilot and series finale for both Btvs and Ats. Angel works fantastically as a more morally grey version in contrast to the type of hero Buffy is.

I’ll post some initial questions to get the thread going and then hopefully discussions can start off from there.

1) Where does Angel rank out of your favourite characters?

2) Did you enjoy Angel in both ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ and ‘Angel’?

3) What was your favourite romantic relationship of Angel’s and why?

4) What is your favourite Angel scene?

5) What is your least favourite Angel scene?

6) What’s the best thing Angel has ever done?

7) What’s the worst thing Angel has ever done?


I’ll let people respond first before giving my own answers.

Vampmogs

[Nina]

As the most people probably know, Angel is my favourite character. I think that it's great how the writers let him grow every season. When we met him, he was pretty much a nobody and in the comics, we see a man who fights for his believings and for innocents and he is ready to give everything up for that. Angel's story is about hope and I think that's the best message a hero can send.

I'm also fan of his persona, he is probably the most human character in the 'verse. Like Vampmogs already pointed out, Angel isn't extreme, he is a bit of everything. There are a lot of good written characters in the series but Angel is the best in my opnion. He can be really smart, but also really stupid or clueless, he can be a dork but also very cool, he can be afraid and brave, he is funny ... but he isn't like Andrew, Spike or Anya. Angel can be very sensitive and a complete ass, sometimes he is noble and selfless but he can be selfish as well.
You can't label him or give him one role. He isn't just the fists, he thinks a lot as well, he can keep the group together, he can inspire people ... he is flawed, complex, unique and normal. And those things are always mixed, all these things are always there.

And I like that the writers don't use deux ex machinas to make his plans work, no writers fiat to make him right anyway. If he is wrong, fine ... let him deal with it. Angel isn't the one who is always right, he lives in the grey area like the most people. Sometimes he does something and it works, the world is saved and everybody is happy, sometimes he makes a mistake and nobody is happy and sometimes he has to make a decision and 50% is happy. And if he does something bad with good meanings, he finds out that it doesn't work that way ... and he pays for it.

To make a long story short, Angel is growing as a person every season and his story isn't that of a hero but of a human.



1) Where does Angel rank out of your favourite characters?
He is my favourite character, and it's not blurry ... is my number one without a question.

2) Did you enjoy Angel in both ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ and ‘Angel’?
I loved him since BtVS season 1 ... somewhere. But I think that Angel is underused and underdeveloped as a character in BtVS. But it was the start of a beautiful journey and it was maybe slow ... I loved in anyway.

3) What was your favourite romantic relationship of Angel’s and why?
Buffy and Angel, what can I say .... I love the romantic soulmate thing. And the fact that these two characters are the most important characters in the story does help as well.

But Darla and Angelus is close, I really like how they work as a couple. And how well they know eachother.

4) What is your favourite Angel scene?
Uhhh, one scene? I don't know, I love the last scene in 'Forever'. Because that shows again that Angel is just a flawed human and not some saint. And it's very powerful.

But I love the scene in 'Epiphany' as well with Kate when Angel says my favourite quote ever.

If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today.

5) What is your least favourite Angel scene?
Angel crying in the Girl in Question. I hate it when the writers make Angel OOC just because they love petty and pathetic Angel. That's why I don't like the Spike vs Angel thing all the time ... it makes them look pathetic and it isn't funny for a whole season.

6) What’s the best thing Angel has ever done?
Ehm, I'm not sure ... signing away the prophecy in NFA I think.

7) What’s the worst thing Angel has ever done?
Going to Rome when Wesley needed him, come on ... Wes is his best friend ... Buffy isn't. I've not much trouble with Angel's grey area decisions like removing memories, killing evil lawyers or killing Drogyn ... somehow I can see the why and I think that I would do the same.

[BangelFan2202]

1) Where does Angel rank out of your favourite characters?
he ranks in as number 2 for me

2) Did you enjoy Angel in both ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ and ‘Angel’?
Well I just started to watch Angel and so my answer is yes I do.

3) What was your favourite romantic relationship of Angel’s and why?
This will be a pretty straight forward answer for me and it is none other then Buffy, and the reason why is because those two are cute and hot together and you can obviously tell that they are each other's soul mates.

4) What is your favourite Angel scene?
This one's a toughy so I am going to have to come back to it.

5) What is your least favourite Angel scene?
I don't have one at the moment.

6) What’s the best thing Angel has ever done?
I think the best thing Angel has done is help the people.

7) What’s the worst thing Angel has ever done?
Honestly i'm not to sure on this one either. .

-Trish

[kana]

I've posted so much on Angel's character but I'll stick to questions otherwise my post we'll be too long to read in one go.

1) Where does Angel rank out of your favourite characters?

My favourite. Numero uno. Narrowly beating Faith and Wesley. Needless to say, that Release and Sanctuary are some of my favourite episodes.

2) Did you enjoy Angel in both ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ and ‘Angel’?

Yes. It's all part of Angel's journey. I enjoy putting the pieces together. I like his gradual change from cryptic guy, to romantic hero (apart from his de-soulled period) to dark avenger, to champion and leader, then follower, then leader again, to corporate puppet, to champion again.

3) What was your favourite romantic relationship of Angel’s and why?

Hmmm, not sure really. I prefer him as a person when he's with Cordy but he lacks chemistry (imo) with her, but with Buffy, he has chemistry but I prefer him on Angel as person, post Buffy. Maybe Nina. It was nice to see Angel get laid without turning evil or brooding about it the next day. lol. No seriously, probably Darla. For the past, the inner struggle and the mixture of damnation and salvation (vampirism and Connor).

4) What is your favourite Angel scene?

OMG! That is difficult. Either with Connor in Home or the Epiphany speech, like Nina said.

5) What is your least favourite Angel scene?

I'm not sure if I have one. Although I wasn't a huge fan of TGIQ, it did make me laugh.

6) What’s the best thing Angel has ever done?

Help Faith, that's kind of my favourite. He was the only one who didn't give up on her in the end.

7) What’s the worst thing Angel has ever done?

Generally anytime he mistreated his friends. I particularly hated the way he sometimes treated Lorne: treating him like a mystical vending machine, (although that wasn't exclusive to Angel), almost threatening him in Birthday, treating him like his valet or butler rather than a friend (WITW and Long Day's Journey) and treating too much like a low level lacky rather than head of department in Time Bomb. His alienation of Wes in Disharmony.

[Boltmaiden]

Yay an Angel Club!

1) Where does Angel rank out of your favourite characters?
Oh man that is tough, he is right up at the top but I have always had a hard time picking a favorite in the 'verse so it is hard to put a number on him.

2) Did you enjoy Angel in both ?Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and ?Angel'?Yes! It is so fun now to go back and see how far he has come as a character but I love all stages of Angel, even when he makes me really angry

3) What was your favourite romantic relationship of Angel's and why?
Um...yeah not hard, Buffy hands down. I wrote a lot about this in the Bangel thread so I don't want to be redundant but is short I love the idea that you can have such a deep love and connection with someone that no matter how much time or space comes between the two, they still find ways to come back to each other. That is how I view Buffy and Angel.

4) What is your favourite Angel scene?
Oh this question is just mean how can I pick just one? Okay here's one and ironically it comes from my least favorite season of Angel. He and Jasmine are in the middle of their showdown, once again Angel has made a tough but necessary choice, making sure the masses see her for what she is and yet in turn creating utter chaos. Here's some of the exchange:

Jasmine: No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices. I offered paradise. You chose this!

ANGEL: Because I could. Because that's what you took away from us. Choice.

JASMINE: And look what free will has gotten you.

ANGEL: Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what makes us human.

JASMINE: But you're not human.

ANGEL: Working on it.

That whole scene shows so much of what I love about Angel.

And excuse my Bangelness but I have to quickly say that Angel walking up to Buffy in the sunlight and kissing her is one of my favorites as well.

5) What is your least favourite Angel scene?
Probably the one where he tries to kill Wesley after Wesley betrays him... I know why he is in that state, it is just one of the times I wish he could have been...less human, the whole scene made me so upset..it was such a dark time for him and Wesley.

6) What's the best thing Angel has ever done?
I have to put giving up his chance to be human to save Buffy and continue fighting. Right up there, and probably bound to stir up controversy, I think Angel "selling his soul" to Wolfram and Hart so that Connor could have the chance to have to be happy, to have a prosperous and safe life is one of the best things he has ever done. He was willing for Connor to never know him and for him to never have interaction with Connor just to do what he felt was right for his son. As a mother myself that idea is even more powerful to me now than when I first watched it happen and back the I was pretty proud of him Even with him thus sacrificing his friends memories which is a pretty big deal.

7) What's the worst thing Angel has ever done?
It's funny but I think I again have to say his making the deal with Wolfram and Hart. I don't believe for a second that Angel didn't know how bad that was going to be, I mean I believe he was going to continue to fight them tooth and nail but he also knew that he gave them what they wanted so the scales had tipped into their favor. And his choice messed with is friends memories which meant he was messing with parts of what make them..them.

That decision is the best example in my opinion on what the show was about, that there many times is not a right and a wrong...that there is grey and the decisions you make have an up and a down side, have a fall out and you will have to deal with the consequences.

[Enisy]

Where does Angel rank out of your favourite characters?

1) Spike
2) Buffy
3) Giles
4) Angel

Did you enjoy Angel in both Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel?

Nnnnnnot really. Angel's character was All About Buffy during his stay on her show, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but... all the sense of self-worth she was going to inspire in him was condensed in Becoming #1, so we didn't see him grow through her influence, as we did Spike, or even Riley; he remained a static character until he got his own show. Besides, David Boreanaz only developed into a good actor from late Season 1 of Angel and on. Before that, it was apparent, to me, that he "didn't know what the hell he was doing", as he said himself.

What was your favourite romantic relationship of Angel's and why?

Angel/Darla. Better chemistry than Angel/Buffy or Angel/Cordelia, long history, meaningful and epic without being soppy like the above two 'ships, better acting by David Boreanaz... no contest, really. I'm also quite fond of Angel/Faith (and Angel/Spike *g*).

What's the best thing Angel has ever done?

Offering up his life to save Darla in The Trial... Not giving up on Faith in Five by Five and Sanctuary... Relinquishing his humanity for Buffy in I Will Remember You... Signing away the prophecy in Not Fade Away...

What's the worst thing Angel has ever done?

I suppose... killing Drogyn to promote his suicidal plan. Buffy had a point when she said that "she doesn't know how to live in this world if these are the choices", "if everything gets stripped away" (The Gift), and she was talking about something she thought to be inevitable then. Which Drogyn's death wasn't.

[LaJaula]

1) Where does Angel rank out of your favourite characters?

He's my favorite. Wasn't always that way-- Xander was my favorite through the first three seasons of Buffy, but once Ats started, Angel's been number one.

2) Did you enjoy Angel in both ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ and ‘Angel’?

I really didn't like Angel in the first two seasons of Buffy. He was boring to me, and I really did not like him with Buffy. But once he turned into Angelus, he became so much more interesting, and then once he returned from hell in season three, it was like he was a totally different character. So basically, from Innocence onwards it's total love for his character, but before that, no. I've since gone back and watched season two over again, and while I like Angel and Bangel better now than I did originally, I'm still not a huge fan.

3) What was your favourite romantic relationship of Angel’s and why?

Angel and Cordelia. I like Cordelia better than Buffy, and Angel just seems so happy around her. He smiles much more often around Cordelia than he ever did around Buffy. (Not sure if that's actually true. But it seems like it to me!) Plus, I think she knows him a lot better than Buffy did, and they're much closer friends.

4) What is your favourite Angel scene?

Can I pick two? I love his speech to Connor in Deep Down. I love how Angel, while incredibly weak, can still inspire fear/respect from Connor, and I love that he tells Connor that he loves him before kicking him out of the house. Plus, I think he sums up his life's purpose pretty well too. I also love his speech to Connor in Home. Connor and Angel have my favorite relationship on either show.

5) What is your least favourite Angel scene?

Well, I guess technically I should say the crying in The Girl in Question, but since I choose to sort-of ignore that episode and just appreciate the comedy, it doesn't bother me too much. Hmmm...I hate when he refuses to help Sam in Provider because Sam won't give him money, because like in TGIQ, I thought the writers forgot everything Angel was about in order to make a joke. Only this time I didn't find it funny.

6) What’s the best thing Angel has ever done?
7) What’s the worst thing Angel has ever done?

I kind of think these are both the same thing-- the mindwipe with Connor. On the one hand, it was an incredibly selfless thing for Angel to do. He gave up his son, his one tie to the world, the best thing he'd ever done-- in order to make Connor happy. He gave Connor an entirely new life, gave him someone to love, and someone that loved him. And it caused Angel so much pain, but he did it anyway because he cared about Connor. On the other hand-- he stole his friends' memories. He changed their identities, basically; Fred, Wesley, and Gunn are IMO much calmer and less jaded in Season Five than in Season Four. (Which may be a good thing, I guess, but they're supposed to have their S4 personalities; it's their choices and actions that made them who they are, and they deserve to keep that.) Plus, he did it all without consulting anyone; he just thought that he knew best and made the decision. And while Wesley and Illyria may have gotten the memories back, he still can't undo what he did, since the fake ones are there too. Plus the memories issue doesn't even take into account all of the bad things that happened as a result of taking over Wolfram and Hart-- corruption, Fred's death, hell on earth, etc. So, yeah, good and bad.

[vampmogs]

Okay thought I'd answer my own questions now. Thanks for all your replies guys

1) Where does Angel rank out of your favourite characters?

1) Buffy
2) Xander (Willow and Xander are tied)
3) Willow
4) Angel.

2) Did you enjoy Angel in both ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ and ‘Angel’?

I did. I agree that he was more interesting in Ats, as to be expected when it's his own series, but I still enjoyed him in Btvs as well. Like all of Buffy's boyfriends, I prefer him when he isn't with her but I was still very fond of his character in the series. I think the Angel/Angelus arc was probably the best they ever did on the series, and thought his presence in season 2 as the lover/villain was masterful. I also enjoyed his cryptic guy act early in the series as well, I enjoyed the mystery behind him and the idea behind a vampire with a soul. I agree that it was rather 'poetic.' And I also enjoyed his final moments in Btvs as well, as you began to see him growing into his own person, and his eventual selfless act when he left. Angel kicks all kinds of arse in the battle during 'Graduation Day II.'

3) What was your favourite romantic relationship of Angel’s and why?

Probably Buffy/Angel. I enjoyed the epicenes of their relationship, enjoyed the idea of "a vampire in love with a slayer" and if it wasn't for Buffy he would have never been motivated to begin his heroes journey in the first place. I also liked Angel/Darla, but view it less 'romantic' as Buffy/Angel, and didn't really enjoy Angel/Cordelia and thought Angel/Nina was pretty meh. At the end of the day Bangel brought, IMO, the best arc in 'Btvs' with the Angelus storyline in season 2. I just re-watched episodes like 'I Only Have Eyes For You' and 'Passion' and don't think anything compared. Even their scene in 'Go Fish' when he says "Miss Summers, you're beautiful" before attacking to her, is so gothic and eerie that it just grabs my attention.

4) What is your favourite Angel scene?

It is a tough question isn't it? I can't simply pick one so I'll pick a couple.

His conversation with Kate in 'Reprise' is always a cherished scene for me. And I love the final moment when Kate tells him that she never invited him in.

I'm also very fond of his scene when he signs away the Shanshu, I feel incredibly sorry for him and proud of him at the same time.

But really there's so many it's very hard to choose, I feel for him when he watches Connor with his new family in 'Home' and slowly walks away.

5) What is your least favourite Angel scene?

Probably when he tells Cordelia he is "a vampire, look it up." And threatens to move her if she doesn't do it herself. Bad Angel.

6) What’s the best thing Angel has ever done?

Really hard to choose. I agree with others that because he's such a morally complex character, often the best things he's ever done are some of the worst. I'd agree with Enisy on a lot of points though. Being willing to give up his life for Darla in 'The Trial' giving up his humanity for the world in 'I Will Remember You' signing away the Shanshu in 'Not Fade Away' and probably giving up Connor so he can have a normal life in 'Home.' He's always been an incredibly selfless character, starting from 'Prom' when he ends his relationship for Buffy.

7) What’s the worst thing Angel has ever done?

I'd say killing Drogyn or letting Darla and Dru kill the Wolfram and Hart lawyers. On both occasions I can actually understand why he did it, but it doesn't mean it was good.

Some new questions;

1) Do you prefer watching Angel or Angelus?

2) What are your three favourite Angelus scenes?

3) Do you believe Angel and Angelus are different entities that share the same body or the same person, only with one having a conscience?

4) Do you think it's fair for people to dislike Angel based on the fact he's a vampire (Xander, Gunn to some extent, Kate)

[Nina]

1) Do you prefer watching Angel or Angelus?
Angel, I like Angelus ... but after a couple of episodes I want Angel back. I remember the first time I watched BtVS season 2, I was 12 years old and all I could do was wishing that Angel came back ... years later I can see the greatness of Angelus ... but the wish to have Angel back when Angelus is playing is still there.

2) What are your three favourite Angelus scenes?
The fight in Becoming part 2, Angelus returning to Spike and Dru in Innocence and the scene in Passion if he is watching Buffy and Willow cry.

3) Do you believe Angel and Angelus are different entities that share the same body or the same person, only with one having a conscience?
I believe that Angelus is Angel without the humanity. Angelus is the twisted version of Angel, they are the same ... but Angel can't help what happened in the past. But I also think that Angelus is Liam, it's one person all the time ...

4) Do you think it's fair for people to dislike Angel based on the fact he's a vampire (Xander, Gunn to some extent, Kate)
I can understand the idea, they don't see what the audience sees ... I can see why they think that Angel isn't human. You've to see Angel like the audience does to really see that he is just a human in a demon body. It's not fair, but it's understandable. But you can see that Gunn is accepting it in the last season ... he knows Angel better by then.

[BangelFan2202]

1) Do you prefer watching Angel or Angelus?
I actually liked watching both. Angelus was always sarcastic, creepy and funny to me.

2) What are your three favourite Angelus scenes?
My three favorite scenes of Angelus are: "I only have eyes for you", "Passion" and "Orpheus".

3) Do you believe Angel and Angelus are different entities that share the same body or the same person, only with one having a conscience?
I believe that they are the same except one is more compassionate then the other.

4) Do you think it's fair for people to dislike Angel based on the fact he's a vampire (Xander, Gunn to some extent, Kate)
No I don't think its fair because they don't even know what he's like.


-Trish

[kana]

1) Do you prefer watching Angel or Angelus?

Angel, but to me there are two sides of the same coin anyway, but I see more range and variety in Angel. I enjoy the moral ambiguity more than the straight up evil.

2) What are your three favourite Angelus scenes?

That's difficult. Most likely Innocence when he's taunting Buffy about the night before. Then any scene from Passion, especially the one Nina mentioned with him watching Willow and Buffy break down, true sadism in it's purest form. I also liked flashback-Angelus in Becoming when he was taunting Drusilla in 1860, despite the accent. He was truly creepy when he said "God is watching you."

3) Do you believe Angel and Angelus are different entities that share the same body or the same person, only with one having a conscience?

To be honest I accept all theories depending the on the various definitions of the soul. As I said, they are more or less two sides of a fragmented persona. Even if the soul is Liam, Angelus can only manifest as a result of Liam anyway. All the sadism, the dark imagination comes from him, the demon just gives him the strength to commit such crimes. As we see in Pylea the demon in it's purest form lacks the intelligence and artistic form of Angelus. Also see the episodes, Players and Power Play for Angel/us crossover behaviour.

4) Do you think it's fair for people to dislike Angel based on the fact he's a vampire (Xander, Gunn to some extent, Kate)

Not really, but as people have said it's understandable based upon their experiences. However most of them see that Angel's behavior is what earns him fair treatment. However, based upon the Angelus situation (i.e. th curse) it's wise to stay wary but then Angel would understand that, in fact he encourages his group to be on guard in such a situation.

[LaJaula]

1) Do you prefer watching Angel or Angelus?

Angel, definitely. I enjoyed Angelus briefly in Season Four, but after Soulless I kept thinking, "Okay, bring Angel back now!"

2) What are your three favourite Angelus scenes?

My all-time favorite is in the teaser for Passion, when he strokes Buffy's face in her room. It really hammered home the point that Angelus is so different from Angel-- because this is the exact same person, doing something that Angel would do, yet it's so, so creepy, instead of endearing and sweet. I also like him meeting Spike and Dru again in Innocence; when all three of them burst out laughing I can't help but smile too. I also like when he escapes from his cage with Cordelia's help, and tries to pretend to be Angel. <Dramatic pose> "I have to save the world."

3) Do you believe Angel and Angelus are different entities that share the same body or the same person, only with one having a conscience?

I think they're the same person, no matter what Season Four tries to tell me.

4) Do you think it's fair for people to dislike Angel based on the fact he's a vampire (Xander, Gunn to some extent, Kate)?

Yeah, I do think it's okay for them to hate him right away because vampires = evil. Once they get to know him, though, and they realize that he's not like other vampires, then I think that their hate becomes irrational. (Unless they truly dislike Angel's character, regardless of his vampire status. That's fine.)

[vampmogs]

Thanks for all the replies guys

I'll quickly answer the questions first;

1) Do you prefer watching Angel or Angelus?

Like all of you, I prefer watching Angel. Angel has more variety, but to tell you the truth I just love watching Angelus. He's easily my favourite villain in the Buffyverse, no one matches his cruelty and his sadistic nature, it's riveting to watch.

2) What are your three favourite Angelus scenes?

As others have stated, 'Passion' cannot go without mention. I pretty much love every scene he is in in season 2 of Btvs, my topic three would be;

1) When he watches Buffy and Willow get the phone call that Jenny is dead

2) When he comes into the hospital whistling and confronts Xander. He's very creepy in that scene, and Xander was very brave to stand up to him. You can see how he is shaking after Angelus leaves, and it's very understandable, he pissed the guy off. And you don't want to piss off Angelus.

3) When he's stroking Buffy's cheek in the bedroom at night, very creepy.

I think season 2 of Btvs captured Angelus the best, I was a fan of him in Ats s4 until he got free from the cage and then I found him to be poorly scripted, it was a pity, because he was so creepy in Sunnydale and in the cage, but seemed so OOC when he got free. I very much enjoy all of his flashbacks though, they were always handled wonderfully.

3) Do you believe Angel and Angelus are different entities that share the same body or the same person, only with one having a conscience?

I'm going to quote Kana on this;

To be honest I accept all theories depending the on the various definitions of the soul. As I said, they are more or less two sides of a fragmented persona. Even if the soul is Liam, Angelus can only manifest as a result of Liam anyway. All the sadism, the dark imagination comes from him, the demon just gives him the strength to commit such crimes. As we see in Pylea the demon in it's purest form lacks the intelligence and artistic form of Angelus. Also see the episodes, Players and Power Play for Angel/us crossover behaviour.

I pretty much accept all theories as well. I think each of them can be entertained and I think each side has enough textual evidence to support their claims, because the show was always terribly inconsistent about this.

4) Do you think it's fair for people to dislike Angel based on the fact he's a vampire (Xander, Gunn to some extent, Kate)

I personally, don't think it is. I understand initial trust issues and even hate, but I don't think any of the characters had a right to go on hating him for being a vampire, when he was a good individual.

A couple of points on that....

Originally posted by Nina
I can understand the idea, they don't see what the audience sees ... I can see why they think that Angel isn't human. You've to see Angel like the audience does to really see that he is just a human in a demon body. It's not fair, but it's understandable. But you can see that Gunn is accepting it in the last season ... he knows Angel better by then.

I agree that initially, it makes sense people would dislike him. But I have problems with people like Kate hating him almost instantly because he was a vampire. He'd been very good to her up until that point, I wasn't ok with how she immediately despised him because she found out he was a vamp. I also didn't enjoy how Xander hated the guy based on the fact he was a vampire, up until 'Innocence' Angel had done nothing to warrant the hate, so I always felt it was unwarranted.

I guess so, I mean people have every right to choose on whoever they like.

But couldn't you say that's like saying it is fair to hate a man because he's black? Or a woman because she's white, or a man or woman because of their sex? If he hadn't done anything wrong, had a soul and was a good person, should being a vampire really make it ok for people just to automatically hate him?

Originally posted by Kana
Not really, but as people have said it's understandable based upon their experiences. However most of them see that Angel's behavior is what earns him fair treatment. However, based upon the Angelus situation (i.e. th curse) it's wise to stay wary but then Angel would understand that, in fact he encourages his group to be on guard in such a situation.

I loved that Angel encouraged them to stay weary. It was actually probably very hard for him to encourage such thing. The last thing anyone wants to do is make sure their friends always have their guards up about him, but he did it because he knew it was the right thing. And when under the spell from the sensitivity training, he confesses he gets upset when he feels people withdraw from him when he vamps out.

[BangelFan2202]

But couldn't you say that's like saying it is fair to hate a man because he's black? Or a woman because she's white, or a man or woman because of their sex? If he hadn't done anything wrong, had a soul and was a good person, should being a vampire really make it ok for people just to automatically hate him?

No i'm not saying its fair at all and i'm sorry for what i've said before I corrected myself. What I should of said is that people shouldn't hate him because he's a vampire. I actually think Angel's a good person.


-Trish

[vampmogs]

No i'm not saying its fair at all and i'm sorry for what i've said before I corrected myself. What I should of said is that people shouldn't hate him because he's a vampire. I actually think Angel's a good person.


-Trish

I agree

I can understand initial hate. As for instance, Gunn when they first see Angel vamp out. No one knew his circumstances and they can't be faulted for assuming he's just your average vamp. Because for most of the series, he was the only vamp with a soul in the world.

I just don't care for characters hating him because he's a vamp, even after knowing him. Such as Kate, who knew he was a great guy and liked him, until suddenly she learnt he was a vampire and treat him like sh#t because of it.

Which brings me to my next question;

1) Do you feel Angel was ashamed of being a vampire?

I personally can’t decide on this. I believe he’d rather be human any day, which was a big part of his entire series arc and why giving up the Shanshu was so an important scene. But I can never make up my mind of wether or not he was ashamed of being a vampire. He most certainly thought people withdrew from him, he states it to Cordelia and Doyle, and hated when Buffy brought up “the vampire thing” but he also says to Connor that it isn’t all bad all the time. Was he covering to Connor and trying to put a positive spin on it? I’m not really sure.

[Nina]

1) Do you feel Angel was ashamed of being a vampire?

There is no reason to be proud. But he shouldn't be ashamed, he was unlucky 250 years ago. Angel knows that being a vampire isn't cool and that's enough I think. There is no reason to hate yourself because you walked into Darla. We know that he wants te be a human ... for himself but also for Buffy, Connor and his friends. But he starts accepting himself and I think that is a good thing. He isn't hiding his other face anymore ... and he start drinking blood in public. So, no he shouldn't be ashamed ... but it's good to stay realistic about it ... being a vampire isn't a good thing.


Spoiler question:

Spoiler:

Do you think that Angel should become a vampire again? Or can you enjoy his story as well when he is human?

[vampmogs]

There is no reason to be proud. But he shouldn't be ashamed, he was unlucky 250 years ago. Angel knows that being a vampire isn't cool and that's enough I think. There is no reason to hate yourself because you walked into Darla. We know that he wants te be a human ... for himself but also for Buffy, Connor and his friends. But he starts accepting himself and I think that is a good thing. He isn't hiding his other face anymore ... and he start drinking blood in public. So, no he shouldn't be ashamed ... but it's good to stay realistic about it ... being a vampire isn't a good thing.

I'm pretty mixed on it. I understand what you're saying about how he should be realistic about it, but then at the same time I too enjoyed that he felt comfortable enough to drink blood in front of his family.

I think he should be ashamed of his past for obvious reasons, but shouldn't be ashamed of who he was. Like you said, he had no idea he was going to be turned into a vampire, and he was a good person. There's nothing that wrong about being a good soulful vampire, at least as far as I can see. Of course it has its limitations and he'd rather be human, but I don't think he should be ashamed of being a vampire as long as he's a good one.

Spoiler question:

Spoiler:

Do you think that Angel should become a vampire again? Or can you enjoy his story as well when he is human?

Spoiler:

I haven't made up my mind yet. I was so excited when it was revealed he was a human, but I'm not seeing a huge difference at the moment. I actually think his abilities in 'After the Fall' are more realistic than how he was portrayed in 'I Will Remember You' but there is an inconsistency there. I was hoping we'd see more of Angel in peril, of Angel being unable to help people because of his problems. But we haven't really seen any of that, sometimes I forgot he's even become a human.

But he's remained interesting to me. I've seen a lot of people claim if Angel became a human they wouldn't find him as interesting any more, but I think he's just as interesting as he ever was, and even has the potential to become more interesting.

[Nina]

Spoiler:

I agree, it wouldn't hurt to see Angel being helpless until he learns to get everything out of his new situation. That's why I would love to see more Angel in the first weeks after the big fight ... a 'useless' hero must be beautiful to read about. If they don't do that, I don't know if making Angel human was a good step ... you've to go all the way or not at all. It doesn't really bother me so much as some others ... but I don't enjoy this too strong Angel. It isn't needed with supernatural warriors like Connor, Spike, Illyria and Groo on his side ...

But I think that changing him back in a vampire would be too cruel. I already wrote before that the line between punishing Angel for his mistakes ... and bashing Angel, is somethimes to blurry. And I think that if he was only human in hell would cross the line ... I think that Angel isn't less interesting because he became human. He still remembers Angelus, he still wants to fight to good fight and he needs to clean up the mess he created in LA. I would love it if we have the contrast between the human hero Angel and the superpowered hero Buffy with her army of slayers. Both will work in a complete other way to save the world or innocents.

[kana]

1) Do you feel Angel was ashamed of being a vampire?

There may be some truth in what the fauxSwami said: That Angel's quite ambivalent about it. Angel has always felt insecure about his vampirism. It's not hard to see why. Buffy was afraid at first and Kate took a long time to trust him and lest we forget that in the 50s Judy called him a monster and everyone turned on him when they found out he was different. It's not surprising that he didn't tell AmnesiaCordy straight away.

This said, he does see his vampire abilities as an advantage in the good fight. He admitted to Nina that being nearly indestructible was kind of cool. I think humanity in the right circumstance would be a welcome event in Angel's life but...

Spoiler:

Do you think that Angel should become a vampire again? Or can you enjoy his story as well when he is human? I'm happy with his story at the moment. Like I said in a different forum, Angel's unique persona comes from him, not from his vampire status. The angst and conflict remains although the circumstance is different. I honestly don't mind whether he remains human or not, as long as his story remains compelling. He may have to rely on other ways to contribute to the good fight, now that would be interesting.

Spoiler:

I actually think his abilities in 'After the Fall' are more realistic than how he was portrayed in 'I Will Remember You' but there is an inconsistency there.

I wasn't too bothered by that. I've always thought the Mohra demons were pretty strong. Buffy took quite a beating from the last one bu with her Slayer resilience she was able to recover quickly. Human Angel (without any mystical aids) was not able to do that.

[vampmogs]

There may be some truth in what the fauxSwami said: That Angel's quite ambivalent about it. Angel has always felt insecure about his vampirism. It's not hard to see why. Buffy was afraid at first and Kate took a long time to trust him and lest we forget that in the 50s Judy called him a monster and everyone turned on him when they found out he was different. It's not surprising that he didn't tell AmnesiaCordy straight away.

The Buffy/Judy comparisons are really interesting and you get a deeper understanding of Angel's troubles in 'Angel' after Buffy sees his true face. As you said, Judy turned on him and called him a monster and as far as we know Angel never got into a personal relationship again after that. Then he finally gets drawn back in when he sees Buffy for the first time and when she sees his true face she screams in terror. It makes more sense after seeing his relationship with Judy why everything Darla said about Buffy viewing him as an animal hit so hard for Angel. He was really getting put in the same situation again.

It's also interesting that Angel initially tried to keep away from Buffy because he was a vampire, but when they did get into a relationship he hated it when she brought up him being one. Possibly a constant reminder of what he knew would inevitably need to happen because of what he was, which was their eventual break up in 'The Prom.'

There's ultimately something very tragic about Angel's character that makes me feel for him. Not only did he know from the beginning that he couldn't be with Buffy forever because he was a vampire, but he also knows that eventually all his friends will die around him because of their mortality. Even if he did get into a new relationship, or had the chance to start one with Buffy again, and even if he gets a nice circle of friends around him, he'll always end up alone.