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Is Anya an Elephant? Is Willow a donkey? Giles a Broonite?

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  • Is Anya an Elephant? Is Willow a donkey? Giles a Broonite?

    In other words...where do you think the characters in Buffy and Angel would sit on the political spectrum? Party-wise, or if there's no party that fits them, more general ideological leanings...and in terms and any particular figures you think they'd dig as their leaders. Let's fudge timelines and talk in terms of the last year or so for ease of...remembering who's in what party

    Ignore trifling legal issues such as the fact that they died years ago - after all, if Angel can sign a lease on a building, I'm sure he can blag himself a voting slip. If they're of a nationality other than American, put what you think they'd vote in their home countries...though I'd say Anya's a US citizen by now, with her fake identity and lame ass made up maiden name Spike and Dru, probably still British? Angel, you could go with Irish or American, whichever? Personally I don't know enough about Irish politics to make a judgement on the former

    Give reasons, obv.

    I'll start with an easy one. Quentin Travers = Tory. The Watcher's Council being pretty much the Tory party with stakes, and Quentin being exactly the kind of former public schoolboy who loves things the way they are and does not like foreign johnnies (such as Buffy) messing with the old order.

    EDIT: FYI, re the title...Broonite = supporter of Gordon Brown, ie New Labour. From the Private Eye cartoon that riffs on an older comic strip called "The Broons".

    http://www.nls.uk/scotlandspages/timeline/img/1950.jpg
    Wolfie Gilmore
    Sad Castiel
    Last edited by Wolfie Gilmore; 12-03-08, 07:05 PM.


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  • #2
    Anya is a fiscal conservative/libertarian, based on her discovery of the beautiful wonder of capitalism in Season 5. She's a free-market thinker, who tends to reject authoritarianism of any kind (Buffy's unilateral rule, the Council, Tara's dad), and takes a very law-in-economics approach to both her business and on moral issues (like charging for Slaying).

    Of any of the gang, I suspect Xander is probably the most fiscally *and* socially conservative. For one, he's likely to be a fiscal conservative/free market capitalist just because he has also owned a business and presumably liked making money by doing so. Socially, it's just a guess, but it's in his psyche -- awful as they were, he's from the two parent home, he's the one who thinks of life as having "rules, and boundaries, and an endzone". But a social conservative is willing to accept authoritarianism within a strict moral context, and Xander's loyalty to Buffy and whitehat-ism (whitehat-ism?) in general, rather than looking first to his own self-interest, suggests he's not a libertarian.

    Willow strikes me as the most fuzzy wuzzily liberal of the group. I submit "Pangs" and pretty much call it a win.
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    • #3
      Anya is a fiscal conservative/libertarian, based on her discovery of the beautiful wonder of capitalism in Season 5. She's a free-market thinker, who tends to reject authoritarianism of any kind (Buffy's unilateral rule, the Council, Tara's dad), and takes a very law-in-economics approach to both her business and on moral issues (like charging for Slaying).
      Absolutely! I love the fact that she was a Marxist in flashback – “The worker will overthrow absolutism and lead the proletariat to a victorious communist revolution, which will result in socio-economic paradise on earth”

      Perhaps she’s like Andrew is with evil? As in, she absorbs the flavour of politics that she comes into contact with? That’d fit with her character, in terms of how she doesn’t quite know who she is, and “clings” onto whatever comes along – whether it’s a monetary policy, or a boy with nice upper arms


      EDIT:

      Spike is an anarchist. He wouldn’t want any government whatsoever, but not in a libertarian sense, because it would be more about him having the freedom to smash stuff rather than the rugged individualism laissez faire side of things. Though in a sense, I think he WOULD rather have a government…because he likes kicking against something, so he might feel a little lost if there truly were no social restraints?

      As William, I imagine he wouldn’t have cared for such unpleasant business as politics. But perhaps he’d be a Whig? I don’t see him as establishment enough to be a Tory.
      Wolfie Gilmore
      Sad Castiel
      Last edited by Wolfie Gilmore; 12-03-08, 07:21 PM.


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      • #4
        Uhm let's see, here in the Netherlands we have for every political idea. And I use the name of the dutch parties to identify somebody ... but I will try to use different names.

        Buffy:
        She is pretty open-mind and a socialist but not extremely, I think that she will vote for the 'Labor party'.

        Willow:
        Very open minded, jewish, socialist, smart ... I think that she will vote for a progressive and social party who also cares about the environment and the nature. But maybe, she will vote for the green, liberal party.

        Xander:
        Another labor party voter, I think that his ideas look like Buffy's ideas.

        Giles:
        His parents will probably be conservative, christian and liberal people ... but I think that Giles will be a lot more progressive ... another labor party voter? Or maybe more the left winged liberal?

        Anya:
        Very liberal and pretty conservative. Loves money, the American dream and the perfect family ...

        Riley:
        Christian and socialist I guess, maybe labor party ... maybe a little bit more religious.

        Spike:
        Uhh, difficult one, William was probably a christian and conservative man. But Spike is all about freedom, so a liberal I guess.

        Tara:
        Same as Willow I think, maybe a little bit less liberal.

        Dawn and Joyce:
        The same as Buffy I think.

        Andrew:
        Conservative but a socialist, I think ... but I'm not sure. His character isn't fleshed out enough.

        -----------------------------------------

        Angel:
        Progressive and liberal. He isn't a real socialialist, but he is open minded and a progressive thinker.

        Cordelia:
        A liberal, in the past a right winged one, but now ... a centre liberal.

        Wesley:
        Same as Giles, but a little less progressive.

        Gunn:
        Gunn doesn't vote, the white people will win anyway.
        He is a very social guy, labor party?

        Fred:
        Another progressive liberal.

        Lorne:
        very socialistic, another labor party voter I guess.

        Connor:
        Socialist, but also a liberal. I think that he will vote like his father, he is only more a socialist.

        Harmony:
        the one with the most shiny hair gets her vote ...
        I don't know what she will vote, conservative liberal I guess.

        Doyle:
        and another labor party voter.

        Lilah:
        liberal and she will probably vote for a female.
        Nina
        and her haircut.
        Last edited by Nina; 12-03-08, 08:17 PM.

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        • #5
          Nina, by social do you mean socialist?

          Lilah:
          liberal and she will probably vote for a female.
          Now I MUST read teh fanfic in which Lilah and Hilary Clinton have drinks at a fundraiser


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          • #6
            Uh yeah I guess so. I will change it.

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            • #7
              I definitely think a lot of the protagonist lean a little left of the middle. Lorne is an interesting one. I definitely think he's less laissez faire than he pretended to be in the past. He's an entertainer at heart and some hide their leanings out of fear of unpopularity.

              Angel probably 'lefted' himself because his father was so far to the right that...

              He seems more socialist in principle I guess, but like Buffy and some of the others I don't think he that 'rooted'. Civil liberties are one of the things he does bang on about though.

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              • #8
                Hmm, I'm not sure where I'd actually place Giles, but just for imagery I can completely picture him as being a protestor in the 1980s, the marches, the mining riots, the anti-Thatcherism, the working class rebel. And absolutely the same with Doyle! *Imagines fanfic about Doyle as a Trade Unionist on the front lines ... ok, that's actually not that interesting ... unless the riot police were demons ... *plots & schemes** I imagine Giles as being fairly moderate in his later years though, nothing too extreme either way. Agree with above points on Anya. Riley I think would be Republican, he is fairly straight-laced and traditional. Holtz would be very traditional and conservative too I think. Wes' political growth would be quite interesting, from his inital conservative, wealthy background, to a more liberal approach as he begins to become more complex, and then probably to apathy around his post-Fred, scotch drinking days. Anyone who would abstain from voting?

                And in a kind of related way, which papers do you think they all would read? (And please roughly state where on the spectrum they lie). If Sunnydale moved to Britain ... Willow definitely a Guardian reader; Giles perhaps The Times? No Mail readers that spring to mind, luckily enough. Spike obviously The Sun* What about American papers?

                *In my skewed vision of the political bias of decent British newspapers, I reckon you could place them from left to right like this: The Guardian, The Independent, The Times, The Daily Telegraph. The Sun is a tabloid filled with sport, half naked women, and patriotic buzz words. The Daily Mail is not worth mentioning. Any generic headline will involve fear mongering about any debated subject (e.g. immigration, crime etc.) and blames everything on [insert one or more of the following: immigrants/Communists/women/the EU/Greenpeace/lesbians/homosexuals/Muslims/Arabs/Jamie Oliver/bicycle owners/Darth Vader/short people/the dinosaurs/Dairylea Dunkers] and is responsible for the 'straight bananas in the EU' myth.

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                • #9
                  I think Spike would rather have a government so he can be apart of the implement in which to bring it down and 'fight the power'. No government and no rules means there is nothing to fight against, maybe rather un fun for a rebel like Spike.
                  I always enjoyed that he was a Punk (in the real 70s British way, not the pop 'punks' that invade the radio these days....), which was all about fighting institutions. If anything I want to put him as a Socalist, for the going against main stream Capitalism kick.

                  Angelus.....Maybe more of an anarchist in the sense that he doesn't really care about rules to begin with. I think Liam was probably one of the leaset political people out there, he was too self centred to worry about what was going on around him, and that translated into Angelus.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The_Narrator View Post
                    Hmm, I'm not sure where I'd actually place Giles, but just for imagery I can completely picture him as being a protestor in the 1980s, the marches, the mining riots, the anti-Thatcherism, the working class rebel.
                    Only, without the actually being working class bit...which I doubt got in the way of many "working class heroes". I see him taking the trajectory of many - being highly political and left-wing in his youth, but becoming more conservative as he gets older. Not necessarily Tory-conservative, but perhaps New Labour? Or just apathetic, with his knowledge of how institutions work (courtesy of the WAtcher's council) I can't imagining him having any faith in politics either. But in terms of his abstract beliefs about society, I think he has a strong sense of the importance of duty, and the notion that for the good of the many is worth sacrificing the few. Possibly in a violent manner.

                    So perhaps he's a Communist? Always loved the Just William definitions of politics, in which the Conservatives want to make everything better by keeping everything the same...the liberals (ie the lib dems nowadays, inheritors of the Whig party) want to make things better by sort of changing them, sort of keeping them the same)...Labour want to make things better by taking everyone's money off of them...and the Communists want to make things better by taking everyone's money off of them....and then killing them.

                    Good old Just William

                    And absolutely the same with Doyle! *Imagines fanfic about Doyle as a Trade Unionist on the front lines ... ok, that's actually not that interesting ... unless the riot police were demons ... *plots & schemes**
                    You must write this fic. Please? Perhaps Doyle and Giles teaming up to fight the pigs? Who are actual pig demons? And there could be some IRA stuff involved...? Perhaps set it in the 70s and all those bombings weren't actually IRA at all...? Though 80s more fun with the whole Thatcher thing...and skinheads!


                    Anyone who would abstain from voting?
                    Probably Buffy! Or...she'd mean to, but she wouldn't get around to it. Like she says to the girl who asks if she's accepted Jesus as her personal saviour: "I meant to...but then I got busy."

                    And in a kind of related way, which papers do you think they all would read? (And please roughly state where on the spectrum they lie). If Sunnydale moved to Britain ... Willow definitely a Guardian reader; Giles perhaps The Times? No Mail readers that spring to mind, luckily enough. Spike obviously The Sun*
                    I think Giles might be a secret Spectator reader (right wing maverick magazine that's entertaining whatever your political point of view). Oooh, he would TOTALLY read Private Eye (satirical magazine).

                    I think Willow would probably read blogs rather than newspapers. Buffy would probably read "Go Fug Yourself" Though I think Willow would also read the New Yorker. Xander would too, but just for the cartoons. (which are some of the best in the world, so that's not a cuss).


                    Originally posted by ally View Post
                    I think Spike would rather have a government so he can be apart of the implement in which to bring it down and 'fight the power'. No government and no rules means there is nothing to fight against, maybe rather un fun for a rebel like Spike.
                    Yeah, that's what I thought - where the fun in being a rebel if there's no one to rebel against?


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                    • #11
                      We know that young Liam was pretty strongly anti-British from that Angel episode where he regressed to his teens, so maybe he'd be a Sinn Fein supporter and a member of Noraid?

                      I can imagine the William Pratt of 1880 being a romantic old-school Tory, all about the idealisation of the humble British farmworker and craftsman (as long as they stayed in their place), and thinking that the natural God-given social order would be perfect if it wasn't for all those vulgar Liberals and Reformers trying to change things.

                      Willow is definitely someone who really believes in the so-called "politically correct" agenda. I think Buffy's sympathies lie along a similar direction, but she's not as committed to the issues and hasn't thought it through in as much detail.

                      Satsu would support the 民主党.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
                        We know that young Liam was pretty strongly anti-British from that Angel episode where he regressed to his teens, so maybe he'd be a Sinn Fein supporter and a member of Noraid?
                        I think he'd probably go with any political party that allowed him to punch people.

                        *Thinks of "two jabs" Prescott*

                        *wonders who'd win in a fight out of John Prescott and Liam*


                        I can imagine the William Pratt of 1880 being a romantic old-school Tory, all about the idealisation of the humble British farmworker and craftsman (as long as they stayed in their place), and thinking that the natural God-given social order would be perfect if it wasn't for all those vulgar Liberals and Reformers trying to change things.
                        Yes, I can see that working... though I don't think the other Tories would think much of him. He does not eat enough pork pies or have of the gout sufficiently.


                        Willow is definitely someone who really believes in the so-called "politically correct" agenda. I think Buffy's sympathies lie along a similar direction, but she's not as committed to the issues and hasn't thought it through in as much detail.
                        I can see them both being quite pro-obama. Or maybe Willow for Hilary, Buffy for Obama, and they get into rows about it, and Willow's all impressed that they're arguing about politics


                        Satsu would support the 民主党.
                        Cute
                        Wolfie Gilmore
                        Sad Castiel
                        Last edited by Wolfie Gilmore; 13-03-08, 04:09 PM.


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                        • #13
                          Hmm, I always considered that Buffy and her friends (except Willow), were right wing republicans. Xander is definitely McCain voter. Buffy, I think, too.
                          Adam: "These are lies. [throws S8 comics in the trash] None of this is real. The world has been changed. It's intriguing but it's wrong."
                          Vampire: "Feels ok to me."
                          Adam: "You're under his spell just like the others. I seem to be the only one who is not." (c) 4.17 Superstar.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ntshpp View Post
                            Hmm, I always considered that Buffy and her friends (except Willow), were right wing republicans. Xander is definitely McCain voter. Buffy, I think, too.
                            So, expandy...Why do you reckon that?


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                            • #15
                              Well, I dunno. Why do you think Buf and Xan are socialists? In "pangs", they were against "liberal" Willow. Their attitude toward demons (metaphor for aliens). And so on.
                              Adam: "These are lies. [throws S8 comics in the trash] None of this is real. The world has been changed. It's intriguing but it's wrong."
                              Vampire: "Feels ok to me."
                              Adam: "You're under his spell just like the others. I seem to be the only one who is not." (c) 4.17 Superstar.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by ntshpp View Post
                                Well, I dunno.Why do you think Buf and Xan are socialists?
                                I don't think they're socialists, necessarily. Though you could argue that Buffy's slayerisation spell was a socialist act? Spreading resources and power to promote equality - though in a limited way, obviously, because it's only the potentials who get the benefit...but, perhaps you could see that as like socialism operating within a particular country, only the people who live there get the resources from their government? The Slaynation

                                Their views on demons could be seen as a metaphor for their views on outsiders...the Jossverse version of foreign policy or views on immigration?...But then, Buffy seems more than happy to give moral citizenship to vampires, once they get souls. And Clem

                                Buffy likes to think of herself as liberal, socially, at least: "If my mind was any more open my brains would fall out". Though perhaps she doesn't live up to her own idea of herself?


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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                                  Absolutely! I love the fact that she was a Marxist in flashback – “The worker will overthrow absolutism and lead the proletariat to a victorious communist revolution, which will result in socio-economic paradise on earth”
                                  I think one thing to keep in mind is that Anya is about vengeance--especially, of course, when she was still a vengeance demon. And of course, the peasants in the Russian Revolution were engaging in massive acts of vengeance, destroying everything that reminded them of their oppression by the nobles. That may have been what appealed to her in the flashback.

                                  On the other hand, Anya sees the ruthlessness of capitalism as being also a reminder of the vengeance that she represtented. And the fact that capitalism dominates the world today is also a plus. But there's also another aspect of capitalism that speaks to Anya. The idea of sanctifying work, of making all of your things and all of your abilities serve a higher purpose, is a theme that the thinkers of capitalism have always believed in. This is something that appeals to Anya at that point in her life, when she is trying to build a new human life out of her circumstances as a demon who was abruptly turned into a young woman. Even the philosophy of vengeance demonhood (as it is expounded by D'Hoffryn and Halfrek as well as Anya) is based on the idea that an impulse like vengeance can be forged into a purpose better than merely striking out at a person you don't like.
                                  Ojuice5001
                                  Library Researcher
                                  Last edited by Ojuice5001; 13-03-08, 06:08 PM.
                                  "When you have an obsession you pretty much fit it into your schedule no matter what." --Cordelia

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Ojuice5001 View Post
                                    I think one thing to keep in mind is that Anya is about vengeance--especially, of course, when she was still a vengeance demon. And of course, the peasants in the Russian Revolution were engaging in massive acts of vengeance, destroying everything that reminded them of their oppression by the nobles. That may have been what appealed to her in the flashback.
                                    Very interesting take on it! Though, her vengeance tended to take on a more personal colour (punishing evil men who've wronged women), I can see her sympathising with violent social justice from a "Justice Demon" point of view.

                                    On the other hand, Anya sees the ruthlessness of capitalism as being also a reminder of the vengeance that she represtented.
                                    Yes, perhaps she sees it as clean and simple in the same way? Life can be confusing for a newly-human lass, so a "survival of the fittest" ideology makes things a bit less fuzzy around the edges.


                                    But there's also another aspect of capitalism that speaks to Anya. The idea of sanctifying work
                                    Yes, that definitely would appeal to her, even if she wouldn't articulate it as such - she finds all the rituals surrounding money comforting, they give her structure, and she finds a beauty in it. The dance of capitalist superiority!


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                                    • #19
                                      I think the fact that Buffy's response to the question "does [God] exist?" was a non-committal shrug pretty much rules out her being a Republican.


                                      Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore
                                      perhaps you could see that as like socialism operating within a particular country
                                      Socialism in One Country? Buffy Summers = Josef Stalin? :eek:

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                        Of any of the gang, I suspect Xander is probably the most fiscally *and* socially conservative. For one, he's likely to be a fiscal conservative/free market capitalist just because he has also owned a business and presumably liked making money by doing so.
                                        Sorry to get off-topic, but I've seen this bandied around and I've got to ask -- why do people say Xander owned a business? He's never explicitly said this or implied it. If it's based on his suits from early on in season 7, I always thought it was just because he was doing so well at his construction job that he was starting to rise through the ranks. Even then, the whole "Xander's successful" schtick fell by the wayside once the Seasonal Arc got underway and Xander was apparently moved into the Summers house, and by First Date he was back to wearing flannel on the job.

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