THE Ultimate Debate: Angel or Spike?

[Ahm Shere]

I didn't see this topic, which was a suprise. (If I didn't look properly, and there is one, then shame on me.) Anyway, back the 'Well Worn Debate', who is better? Angel or Spike? Why do you think they are better? Why do you dislike the other? Or do you like neither of them?

Personally, Angel was dull. I didn't like him one bit. Spike was a much better character. (And sexier too!) He had a good storyline and he didn't act like he was feeling sorry for himself and depressed all the time. Unlike Angel, who I did get that vibe from. I always felt that Angel was depressing and was a major sulk-er, which put me well off him. (His hair didn't help either.) Spike was just in general, the best vamp. Bad@$$ and sexy, cool hair...what's not to like?

[vampmogs]

I like Angel better than Spike and for a number of reasons really.

I used to really like Spike's character earlier on in the series before he had too much screen time, but as he got more and more time on screen and the writers attempted to flesh out his story a bit more I grew to dislike him. Unlike Angel, who in my opinion blossomed more so as a character when given more screentime, I felt Spike's character turned dull rather fast. Like Anya, like Andrew I saw Spike as one of those characters who's primary role was to be the comedian or the character who pops up and says something or what is on their mind or the truth. These characters become loveable because they aren't constantly in the spotlight, unlike Buffy or Angel we don't see as many as their negetive points and hence people seem to love them more so than characters who are fleshed out. However, Spike got more and more screentime and basically turned from this cool funny vampire into this pathetic shell of his former self who followed Buffy around insisting to her that she loved him. It got rather old fast and it really made me dislike his character. More so many fans said Spike was at his worse in season seven, the season he had the most screen time and that was because he works great as the loveable character but IMO can't hold his own as a major one.

Apart from those reasons I just found Angel more interesting, more deserving. I always saw Spike as the comedian which is great for him but Angel was lead character material. I found his history far more interesting, I believe the most interesting aspects of Spike's history was when he killed the slayers and that was summed up and explored in one episode. Anything after that was a conflicting mess and the writers just shrug and go "I guess Spike's an anomoly, that's why he was sad when his mum was mean to him" when really it was painfully obvious this was just a result of poor storytelling as was much of the seventh season. When the writers say "I guess," and basically admit that this wasn't done intentionally you kind of know there is a problem. Basically Spike's history is conflicting and not as well thought out as Angel's which in my opinion is far more interesting. I love Angelus, I love his relationship and past with Darla and with Holtz, I just found it so more interesting to watch than Spike.

It's funny that the above post brings up Angel's sulking because I actually find that far more believeable and understandable than Spike's actions after getting a soul. After getting his soul he bragged about killing two slayers, said his killer trophy had sentimental value, told Angel he should let go of all the memories of killing people and basically this really made me dislike Spike's character. I found him a real arse in Ats s5 and really hated how he went on and on about saving the world and deserves perks and credit when none of the other characters have ever done this after accomplishing the same thing. It just made Spike seem really petty and basically ruined his character for me.

So basically I like Angel more, I can connect with him more, I enjoy his past more and believe he had what it took to be a leading character. I understand why the majority of fans would like Spike more, as I said, for the majority of the time he was one of those characters who could just be loveable because their flaws were never explored like characters who were fleshed out more. I also understand fully when people grow to dislike Spike s6 onwards because when he was given more screen time he became lesser than what he was.

That's my two cents

P.S What was ever wrong with Angel's hair? I've never gotten this? Angel had spiked up hair at the front, he looked like any other regular guy who does the same thing, I see plenty everyday? On the otherhand Spike's hair is sleaked back and platinum blonde. I know females think he is really hot but can they really admit if they had no clue who Spike was and walked past him on the street, the majority of them wouldn't think he is some freak with weird hair and weird clothes? Could it not just be the fact he's on television which greatens his appeal?

[spidol]

I definatly prefered Angel. Spike seemed to me like he was supposed to have a kind of rebel/cavalier attitude but I only really saw him as an arrogant idiot who needed to grow up (especially for someone HIS age). That being said he did have flashes where he was a great character though for me they were few and far between. I prefered him as a plot device than as a character by which i mean that i found how he affected the other characters more interesting and entertaining than anything that actually happened to him.

[SarahRegi]

can there be an option in the poll for both? jeje i can't decide i like them both!

[ThePoet's<3]

Spike - definitely.

I like Angel but he causes me so much angst! I like all the episodes where Cordy makes fun of his brooding and "toning down the enthusiasm". He was always agonising about things. I LOVED him with Baby Connor! First time he's happy! AND I loved it when he and Spike finally got together in the latter episodes of Season 5 - like Frick and Frack! Loved when they were called the Fang Boyz by Gunn!

Spike - my kind of guy! Fun! Spontaneous! Live and let live! Romantic and passionate about life, people, and anything else he seems to put his mind too. Like life is a big fluffy feather bed and he's ready to jump right into the middleof it!! Will go all out to protect those he loves.

Also, I have a thing for Billy Idol...

[Salvation]

ANGEL HANDS DOWN.

Angel was the main reason i watched BTVS in the first place,i think i wouldnt be that obsessed aout the both shows if wasnt for him.The hair i dont see & i dont understand why some people are botherd by it,it look's fine to me.

Angel is way more mature than Spike that who sometimes act like a little boy wanna have anything Angel got which was so annoying to me most of the time.

[LRae12]

I love them both in different ways, but I voted for Spike.

In season2, Spike was such a better 'baddie' than Angelus, and he blew away boring Angel. He was funny, clever, and hot!

Once Spike became souled, he was still more appealing than Angel. Angel had a soul forced on him and the demon inside was constantly trying to be rid of it. Spike willingly sought the soul, and for the love of a woman...and that is so much more romantic than 'gee, if we sleep together, you're going to murder me'...LOL.

Plus, through Season 4-5 the comedy that Spike brought to the show far outweighed the subtle humor that Angel possessed.

So, for me, Spike is the winner.

[Nostalgia]

Spke is without a doubt the better vampire. He's overcome so much more.. he's been through so many different phases as a character.

season 4: Witty, hilarious, trying to find his purpose (very much like Giles). Realizes that he has to start a new life as a citizen yet at the same time wants revenge on Buffy. My favorite version of Spike.

Season 5: Puppy dog Spike. Crushed Spike. Lovesick Spike. Another favorite of mine. I love the one scene in "Crush" when Xander is yelling at Spike for his wallet and Spike is completely ignoring him as he watches Buffy and Ben hit it off.

Season 6: Naughty/trying to make a relationship with Buffy work Spike. Definetly an evolving character in this one.. I love how we see him go from trying to help and do the right thing, to at the same time reverting back to his bad self again... having a hard time being a man and at the same time cannot be a demon.

Season 7: Soullful Spike. God, I love Spike's character in season seven. Even as a guy, I will openly admit that Spike is really a sweetheart this season. I love how he brings such a aurora to the set in this season.. especially in "Beneath You." <--- My favorite acting of James Marsters. Ever.

However... I would never state that Spike plays a better baddie than Angelus. Angelus will always be the greatest enemy Buffy ever had to face. He's brilliant and utterly evil. I love Angel as well. He's an amazing character, just Spike has a lot more depth and interest for me.

[bishopcruz]

Angel all the way. As Angelus he is the best villain the Buffyverse has ever seen, hell he was more evil than the First Evil for crying out loud.

Angel to me is so much more interesting than Spike, mainly because he has had a lot more opportunity for growth outside the confines of Buffy.

He has been through more interesting changes, has actually grappled, many times with his dark side, and has always seemed far more human to me than Spike ever did. True, Spike had more development than Angel did on Buffy, but Angel had his own show on which to shine, where we learned just how hard it was to deal with getting a soul when you have no roadmap to follow (unlike Spike).

Spike is in many ways defined by his relationship with Buffy, for better or worse. Angel however is his own man, (Chosen appearance aside) and it really shows. He dealt with fatherhood, alienation, his own darkeness, making a family an losing that family. Having to deal with the evil he brought into the world, and making up for his past and current mistakes. He just is a far more interesting character IMO.

[Chosen1]

I choose Spike. Not only do I think he's hotter, but he's like he would be funner to be around. Plus, he made a good point in Destiny about how Angel was cursed with a soul, but he went and fought for his. Don't get me wrong, I like Angel a lot, but I LOVE Spike.

[Sassy]

I didn't see this topic, which was a suprise. (If I didn't look properly, and there is one, then shame on me.) Anyway, back the 'Well Worn Debate', who is better? Angel or Spike? Why do you think they are better? Why do you dislike the other? Or do you like neither of them?

I like Angel better personally. He looked out for those around him, both on BTVS and ATS, he was a champion for the powers and generally thought for the greater good. I don't dislike Spike, although late s5 and then through the end of s6 he is too Buffy obsessed, i.e. building a shrine of her.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by Sassy
I like Angel better personally. He looked out for those around him, both on BTVS and ATS, he was a champion for the powers and generally thought for the greater good. I don't dislike Spike, although late s5 and then through s7 he is too Buffy obsesses, i.e. building a shrine of her.

Spike wasn't Buffy obsessed at all in season seven. At that point he was over her, especially considering he thought that he could never have him. Look at him in "First Date," when he doesn't mind that she is on a date with Wood.

[vampmogs]

Spike wasn't Buffy obsessed at all in season seven. At that point he was over her, especially considering he thought that he could never have him. Look at him in "First Date," when he doesn't mind that she is on a date with Wood.

Ah yes Spike was so convincing in that scene It was fairly evident he wasn't over her, especially obvious in a later scene where he is practically bolting for the door any chance he got to interrupt their date.

I'd also point out Touched and End of Days demonstrate Spike was far from over Buffy. We also of course have the constant bickering about Buffy in Ats s5 and Spike runs off to Italy when at first he refused, to get to Buffy in TGIQ.

I don't believe Angel was over Buffy either, but agree with Sassy in saying Spike's whole life pretty much revolved around Buffy in the last two or three seasons of the show. Angel had a lot more going for him which makes Spike seem far more obsessed, and then we have the shrine of Buffy and attempted rape that are evidence of obsession.

[Nostalgia]

Ah yes Spike was so convincing in that scene It was fairly evident he wasn't over her, especially obvious in a later scene where he is practically bolting for the door any chance he got to interrupt their date.

I'd also point out Touched and End of Days demonstrate Spike was far from over Buffy. We also of course have the constant bickering about Buffy in Ats s5 and Spike runs off to Italy when at first he refused, to get to Buffy in TGIQ.

I don't believe Angel was over Buffy either, but agree with Sassy in saying Spike's whole life pretty much revolved around Buffy in the last two or three seasons of the show. Angel had a lot more going for him which makes Spike seem far more obsessed, and then we have the shrine of Buffy and attempted rape that are evidence of obsession.

I definetly am wrong stating that Spike wasn't over Buffy in season seven... but in no way was he obsessed. Neither Angel nor Spike were obsessed anyone anyone post-soul. Obsession was clearly a part of a vampire's lifestyle when they didn't have a soul.

[KingofCretins]

Spike is better. It took a lot of thought, but he is. He is always more self-aware, more honest about what he is -- both when he's a monster and when he's a champion -- than Angel really is. I'm glad Spike kicked his teeth in in "Destiny".

[vampmogs]

I definetly am wrong stating that Spike wasn't over Buffy in season seven... but in no way was he obsessed. Neither Angel nor Spike were obsessed anyone anyone post-soul. Obsession was clearly a part of a vampire's lifestyle when they didn't have a soul.

Angel grew obsessed with Darla in Ats s2.

Originally Posted by KingofCretins
Spike is better. It took a lot of thought, but he is. He is always more self-aware, more honest about what he is -- both when he's a monster and when he's a champion -- than Angel really is. I'm glad Spike kicked his teeth in in "Destiny".

I think it depends entirely on how you view self-awareness. I'm not particularly inclined to believe it is a positive to be completely self aware and open to the idea you are evil and I always liked that most of the time Angel hated being called a champion. It seemed to be seen as a positive when either Angel or Spike called themselves a champion but I saw it very differently.

Just for the record I must also add that as far as being self-aware, Spike lacked this a great deal of the time. He didn't own up to a lot of what he had done, trying to make Angel take the blame for everything bad he had done in Destiny, not owning up to his past crimes in Damage and stating he got his soul because it was the right thing to do and it was his destiny in Destiny. I think Spike certainly has the ability to become a Champion and from Not Fade Away onwards we would have seen a different Spike but not giving a rats arse about the fate of the world in Harms Way and leaving to go to Europe even when Wes urged him not to doesn't exactly make him a better champion than Angel, nor does partly wanting the destiny just to take something away from Angel.

Angel has defintily done some un-heroic things but I'd never go as far to say Spike is more of a champion than him because unlike Angel Spike hasn't done many things of yet to make him seem like a hero to me. Most of his past deeds were done to impress women as Lindsey points out and by the end of Ats s5 he had only begun to help because he wanted to. We've seen Angel do a lot of heroic things, on screen Spike never got that chance so I could never view him as more than a hero.

I didn't like Spike winning in Destiny so I got a kick of Angel slamming him down onto the floor in Your Welcome

[KingofCretins]

Just for the record I must also add that as far as being self-aware, Spike lacked this a great deal of the time. He didn't own up to a lot of what he had done, trying to make Angel take the blame for everything bad he had done in Destiny, not owning up to his past crimes in Damage and stating he got his soul because it was the right thing to do and it was his destiny in Destiny. I think Spike certainly has the ability to become a Champion and from Not Fade Away onwards we would have seen a different Spike but not giving a rats arse about the fate of the world in Harms Way and leaving to go to Europe even when Wes urged him not to doesn't exactly make him a better champion than Angel, nor does partly wanting the destiny just to take something away from Angel.

Spike was more of a champion than Angel in Season 5. Spike was the one that was actually helping the helpless. And, while he did come on strong about blaming Angel in "Destiny", it was worth doing. Spike never rationalized, before or after his soul, his past. He never shied away from what he was. Angel had to invent a whole metaphorical structure by which those acts had nothing to do with him just to cope, but still gladly soaked up sympathy for how fine a line he had to walk.

He has plenty of moments to go against him in Season 5, but overall, he was the better between them by that point, if not before. Want the proof that Spike was the more self-aware? "A little of both".

[vampmogs]

Spike was more of a champion than Angel in Season 5. Spike was the one that was actually helping the helpless. And, while he did come on strong about blaming Angel in "Destiny", it was worth doing. Spike never rationalized, before or after his soul, his past. He never shied away from what he was. Angel had to invent a whole metaphorical structure by which those acts had nothing to do with him just to cope, but still gladly soaked up sympathy for how fine a line he had to walk.

I don't think Spike was self-aware, Angel was the one trying to make Spike realise about the gravity of his past in Damage and it takes a deranged slayer for Spike to understand the gravity of what he had done.

Notedly, yes Spike was helping the helpless- after Lindsey came and gave him his fake mission. Before that was Spike doing any of this? No. Spike was on his way to Europe to find Buffy, Spike was getting pissed in strip clubs, Spike was drinking in bars with Harmony, it was never his priority to help the helpless until he got this destiny and when he realised it was all fake her joined Angel's team and pretty much threw that idea in the bin. Angel on the other hand was helping the helpless before Doyle came and gave him his mission, he was fighting vamps in LA and wasn't being exactly friendly about it but he was doing it because he wanted to help people and atone for his crimes.

I don't exactly support what the Fang Gang was doing at Wolfram and Hart but I don't think some of the things they were doing were actually that bad. Angel was killing employees who were killing helpless people, Angel was giving funds to orphans who's parents were killed by vampires; I wouldn't say these were bad things.

Nor do I believe that Angel had to invent a whole metaphorical structure. I don't buy into the idea that a soul is just a conscience, it has been stated that a soul is someone's essence, Buffy's soul went up to heaven. In Lie to Me Buffy explains to Ford about the situation of a vampire, how the soul leaves the body and the vamp sets up shop, walks and talks and acts like you but it really isn't you. When Angel and Spike got their soul back, they got back their essence in their body. The only difference is that they remember everything their counterpart did, these memories have shaped them into different people- but I would never say it was simply their conscience. There is too much mythology to counter that, and of course others like the a PTB Jasmine, saw Angelus and Angel as two separate identities.

He has plenty of moments to go against him in Season 5, but overall, he was the better between them by that point, if not before. Want the proof that Spike was the more self-aware? "A little of both".

Again I say, is being self aware always a good thing? What was particularly heroic about Spike admitting part of the reason he ever wanted the destiny, something before hand he said he didn't give a piss about and didn't afterwards, was to take something away from Angel?

[KingofCretins]

I don't think Spike was self-aware, Angel was the one trying to make Spike realise about the gravity of his past in Damage and it takes a deranged slayer for Spike to understand the gravity of what he had done.

Spike's learning curve on that type of thing is still pretty good, with Angel as the basis for comparison. It took Angel close to a century to figure stuff like that out. It's also worth considering that Angel, for all his long-term understanding of what he had done, had no understanding of what he was *doing* until Andrew spelled it out for him.

Notedly, yes Spike was helping the helpless- after Lindsey came and gave him his fake mission. Before that was Spike doing any of this? No. Spike was on his way to Europe to find Buffy, Spike was getting pissed in strip clubs, Spike was drinking in bars with Harmony, it was never his priority to help the helpless until he got this destiny and when he realised it was all fake her joined Angel's team and pretty much threw that idea in the bin. Angel on the other hand was helping the helpless before Doyle came and gave him his mission, he was fighting vamps in LA and wasn't being exactly friendly about it but he was doing it because he wanted to help people and atone for his crimes.

And before Doyle gave Angel the mission, he was... slouching about in bars, killing random vamps, longing to drink the blood of people he saved. And that was the *second time* he'd been given the mission. I don't think it matters at all that it was Lindsey pushing it to Spike. Spike bought in, he got it.

I don't exactly support what the Fang Gang was doing at Wolfram and Hart but I don't think some of the things they were doing were actually that bad. Angel was killing employees who were killing helpless people, Angel was giving funds to orphans who's parents were killed by vampires; I wouldn't say these were bad things.

"When will people learn that a million men are unimportant compared to one man?" -- Henry David Thoreau

Angel got so far into the "big picture" he couldn't see any details. What was that poor girl's name, who was killed at the amusement park? He regressed completely to where he was years before, when he didn't understand that it was *Tina* that mattered, not just a girl needing saved.

[vampmogs]

Spike's learning curve on that type of thing is still pretty good, with Angel as the basis for comparison. It took Angel close to a century to figure stuff like that out. It's also worth considering that Angel, for all his long-term understanding of what he had done, had no understanding of what he was *doing* until Andrew spelled it out for him.

Spike had people like Buffy and Angel helping him to see his wrongs, Spike had people around him who were constantly trying to do the right thing. Angel was alone, and surrounded at times by people who were anything but good. And whilst Spike appeared in Soul Purpose to understand what the Fang Gang had really gotten himself into he seemed to digress after joining them and seemed equally surprised that "they" were fighting on the wrong side. Angel wasn't the only one to lack any understanding of what was happening too them, and Spike considered himself a part of Angel's team from Damage saying that Andrew double crossed "us" instead of "you."

And before Doyle gave Angel the mission, he was... slouching about in bars, killing random vamps, longing to drink the blood of people he saved. And that was the *second time* he'd been given the mission. I don't think it matters at all that it was Lindsey pushing it to Spike. Spike bought in, he got it.

Slouching in bars whilst watching the vamps he was going to kill? Was Angel actually slouching in bars killing random vamps or was he looking for vamps? I'm fairly certain in the commentary for that ep Joss makes it clear that Angel was in fact acting drunk and the scene was meant to give the impression it was all an act to get those vamps. Doyle also later states in that ep that Angel has been in LA fighting evil trying to atone for his crimes and with all his gadgets and set up I'd say Angel was doing more than just stumbling upon and killing random vamps. He made it his goal to hunt them down.

It isn't Angel's fault that he longed to drink the blood of the people he saved, we saw in Harms Way that tasting human blood after having long periods without it makes vamps go a little crazy with hunger and Angel after all is a vampire. Most importantly he didn't take their blood and that's what is important.

Nor was it the second time Angel had been given that mission, his first mission was to help and watch over Buffy. He did this but then realised he was doing more harm than good and he left, this was a new mission entirely.

I think it matters a great deal wether Lindsey pushed it on Spike or not. Angel wanted to atone for his crimes before Doyle ever showed up and gave him his mission, Spike was drinking and hanging about in strip clubs, he was also fairly unwilling to jump in and save someone's life every time Lindsey got a "vision," he openly states this. This is a far cry from Angel who would rush out to save the people immediatly after Doyle got a vision, Spike seemed far to involved in his own life and didn't want to be constantly interrupted by people in need.

Angel got so far into the "big picture" he couldn't see any details. What was that poor girl's name, who was killed at the amusement park? He regressed completely to where he was years before, when he didn't understand that it was *Tina* that mattered, not just a girl needing saved.

That was all an act to appear like he had lost the mission, lost who he once was. It was all done in Power Play to trick the Senior Partners and temporarily the Fang Gang, Angel showed that he certainly hadn't lost the big picture and did really care about Tina. It was Angel who made a conscious effort to break free from the Senior Partners and show them that they couldn't own him, they couldn't change him.