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**Enisy** · 02-03-08, 10:58 PM

Haven't read the whole thing yet, but there's already something I disagree with:

Originally posted by Nina

We know that the vampire has a lot of the same interest's as the orginal human, but the personality is quite different.

Two quotes:

Willow: It's horrible. That's me as a vampire? I mean, I'm so evil, and skanky, (softly, to Buffy) and I think I'm kind of gay.
Buffy: Just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: Well, actually -- (off Buffy's glare) -- that's a good point. (Doppelgangland)

Drew Goddard: I think a lot of vampires do retain some of their personality and I think that becoming a vampire, you don't completely -- I mean, you lose a lot of your goodness, but you retain what makes you you. I mean, Angel became totally this evil prick, but he was kind of a screw-up to begin with, and so that just amplified when he became... And I think what happens is that you sort of amplify those characteristics and not necessarily for the good. I mean, Spike retained that compassion, but it was in a truly screwed-up way. So I think you still kind of retain who you are, it just gets perverted.

***Nina*** · 02-03-08, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Enisy View Post

Haven't read the whole thing yet, but there's already something I disagree with:

Two quotes:

Willow: It's horrible. That's me as a vampire? I mean, I'm so evil, and skanky, (softly, to Buffy) and I think I'm kind of gay.
Buffy: Just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: Well, actually -- (off Buffy's glare) -- that's a good point. (Doppelgangland)

Drew Goddard: I think a lot of vampires do retain some of their personality and I think that becoming a vampire, you don't completely -- I mean, you lose a lot of your goodness, but you retain what makes you you. I mean, Angel became totally this evil prick, but he was kind of a screw-up to begin with, and so that just amplified when he became... And I think what happens is that you sort of amplify those characteristics and not necessarily for the good. I mean, Spike retained that compassion, but it was in a truly screwed-up way. So I think you still kind of retain who you are, it just gets perverted.

Maybe you should read a little bit more because I don't try to say that a vampire is nothing like the human victim.
I maybe used the wrong words again in that sentence because I never tried to say that a vampire isn't like the human person.

**kana** · 02-03-08, 11:55 PM

First of all very interesting thread.

Originally posted by Nina View Post

My idea:

What's a soulless vampire?

When a person is sired, the soul leaves the body and a demon enters.The vampire lost everything that made him or her human when the soul left the body. However, the things that made that person unique (interests, relations with others) are still there, just like the memories.
So the vampire is a unique individual, just like the killed person was. The big question is still; how much of the orginal person is left in the vampire. We know that the vampire has a lot of the same interest's as the orginal human, but the personality is quite different.
If we compare Angelus to Liam, we see that there were some big changes. Liam wasn't a great person, but there were no real signs of narcissism, sadism or sociophatic behavior, we can't say the same about Angelus. When Angelus is soulled and his human soul was back in charge he lost those personality disorder's as well. It's almost safe to say that the demon 'soul' is the reason why Angelus has those disorder's and it has nothing to do with the person Liam. The personality changes when somebody is sired.
Still, the human has a big influence on the vampire. Angelus deals with Liam's daddy- and religion issue's and Angelus uses a power against his victim that Liam's father ever used against Liam. It's more than just a memory or a hobby, the new personality is formed by the old one. It's different, but not a complete new one. My guess? it's because of the memories ... those are a big part of who you are.

So, I don't think that a vampire is just the body of the victim with a complete new creature in it. The vampire has a new personality, but one who is formed by the old one. A personality is formed by the soul and the memories.

My toughts exactly. I tell you what, it's interesting because I was having this convsersation with someone on MSN. How come the Gorch brothers and Kralik hid some (I'm sure many would agree) reprehensible deeds while still human. Liam generally, wasn't proportionately as cruel as Angelus (if at all). In fact Liam was if nothing else a self-forfilling prophecy of his father's disapproval (read between the lines of Prodigal and Spin the Bottle. In the latter episode Liam actually seem quite well behaved and polite, just a little shy although not too Wesley and until the vampire thing even that was awkward fumbling more than anything else)

It seems that his father's disapproval drove him to be something great so he became the most sadistic vampire that ever there was. Considering that Angel often seeks purity, it's seems that he found it in sorts as a vampire. No wonder he felt violated by love. But you're right, vampires are not static creatures. They adapt and change and Angelus is no different. They're prejudices and fears etc are a product of memories and the often unique psychological affect siring has(it really is different in each case)

Lets us not forget that a vampire is generally less inhibited and the demon can pervert seemingly virtuous qualities of the human (think Dru and kids, flowers, dolls etc)

What's the soul?

The soul is what makes somebody human or not; the human emotions, the moral compass etc. The soul in needed to have the personality of a human. It can't be replaced by something else like a chip or a demon. In theory, a human soul can make every demon or creature human. I don't know if you can give every soulless demon a soul, but I don't think that you have to be born with it. A soul is not something that is different for everybody. It's a blanco thing, when Darla was pregnant she 'used' Connor's soul, and she was nothing like Connor and a lot like the human Darla we met in season 2. Connor's personality isn't in the soul, it's in his memories. We see the same happen again after the mind-wipe in 'Home', Connor became another person but his soul didn't change, his memories did. This is also the reason why Angel feels so guilty, a big part of Angelus is like that because of his memories and Angelus is still a part of him because of those memories.

Most people by now know my theories on the soul.

In brief

Theory 1

Soul=Spirit.

It is the person, the essence in spirit as opposed to the body.

Support for theory 1:

Giles original theory on vampires (most likely WC as a source)
Angel vs Angelus (mainly Season 4 for support)
Spike talking about his Mum
Fred's soul being destroyed therefore destroying her essence.

Theory 2

That the soul is nothing more than the conscience and the vampire is quantitively who they are

Support for theory 2

Ryan in IGYUMS
Spike's little change in personality

Darla? Well it at least seems that the soul has inherent guilt giving qualities in any respect dispite Connor being amoral because he's baby, it would seem that the soul itself turned vicious Darla into a self sacrifcing hero. Hmm a vicious vampire turned into a sacrificing hero with the presence of a soul now where have we seen that before (for all those who think it was simply a mothers love, Darla did feel guilty for the things she did, that little to do with being devoted to Connor)

Kana's feelings?

Like Nina I believe the soul has inherent human emotions tied to it. This is what Adam and the demon from the Shroud of Rahmon were talking about. Vampires can have feelings but there are psychological differences between the two species because of the presence of the soul. To be really Kanary, I'll say that having a soul or losing one's soul would have a profound mental and emotional effect. This must be profound enough for Buffy to justify killing 'innocent' vamps. Or does it...?

What is a soulled vampire?

When a vampire is soulled, the human soul takes over the body again. It represses the demon, but the demon doesn't leave the body. There are moments that the demon has a big influence, we see those moments in Ats a lot. But the human soul is leading, the soul forms with the memories another personality. This personality is a mix of the human and the soulless vampire, it will never be like the personality of the human victim because of those memories. This is again very clear in Angel's case, Angel isn't Liam or Angelus ... he is a third personality.

Again...

Theory 1

Soul (Liam/William) is in control but they have the demon(Angelus/SoullessSpike) whispering to them, tempting them.

Theory 2

The spirit (Liam/William) is always in control soul or no soul. The demon (pylean model) influences them but with a soul they are influenced by the conscience)

Kana's feelings?

Similar to and Nina's theory. Basically, yes, the personal identity, regardless of the theory 1 or 2 is linked to the memories and psychological affect of siring, re-ensoulment and a general war of external and internal influences.

*After the Fall spoiler*

Spoiler:

In the case of Spike it's a little bit different because the differences aren't this clear. It works the same, but it's a little bit blurry. I guess that it is that way because of the fact that William had to learn to be Spike. And when he got his soul back, he didn't change like Angelus did because the demon was everything that Liam once needed to be evil, so the human soul is everything Angelus needs to be 'good'. Spike had this too, but a little less. We haven't seen enough of the other vampire's to say if one of them is a unique case, or that there just two kind of vampire's/people. Vampire's who are evil the moment they come out of their grave and vampire's who needs a little bit of time to become this evil.

Again vampirism affects people differently. I don't even think it's a simple matter of goodness. I postulated about purity and granduer with Angelus. Also Angelus is more internally motivated like Angel. Subtle difference but true. It's also possible that Liam's vamped personality could only handle such a psychological dichotomy. Doesn't mean he's bad or really weak, it was just a psychological effect VampLiam happend to suffer.

What does this mean for the soulless vampire's?

Difficult, but if we look at the difference that a soul can make, we can say the next things. The soul makes the difference between a human and a monster. In this case; The soul is the reason that human's can feel love and guilt. The soul gives us the ability to distinct good from evil, and to care about that. Vampire's know that they are evil, but they don't care.
OUr soul makes us care about other's (also when they can't give you something back) and we won't hurt others for fun because of that.
Vampire's who don't have that soul, can't feel love ... the can can be obsessed with somebody, they know lust and passion but they will never love somebody like human's love somebody. They won't feel guilty about what they did nor would they care if they hurt somebody, unless it will affect them as well in a negative way.

I'd keep it even more general that vampires simply respond differently to certain concept and external factors than humans do. Because vampires were once human they feel a lot of what humans felt. We even know some vampires (VampMarcus and SoullessSpike to a less degree) can display levels of moral relativism and even Harmony had some levels of honour and respect. What we do know is that it will be different from that the soulled version of that individual would be. In some scenarios with some individuals it will be profound in other cases and vampires it will be more subtle. Vampires, psychologically and even morall and philosophically, can be complex

Angelus (and Darla?) never used the word 'love' to describe their relation where James and Elizabeth or Dru and Spike did use it. This doesn't mean that Angelus and Darla felt less for eachother than the other two couples, it's just a way of describing the relations. Vampire's can't love like we do, but they can care about their mate.

Well here it is. It's difficult for one to quantify or define it as a human let alone a vampire. You and I may have different ideas but it doesn't mean one of us has to be wrong. The Master cared for Darla. Maybe he didn't use the word, but in some cases, what's in a word?

In Seeing Red, we see Spike being shocked by what he did. He wasn't shocked because of what he did ... but he was shocked by Buffy reaction. Like I said, a vampire only cares about something if it's affecting them in a negative way. That night, Spike lost all the credit he had and he knew that Buffy wouldn't sleep or trust him again after that. And Spike's obsession made him fight for his soul, he needed to fix what he broke that night to get her back.

It's the eternal debate but either way Spike reaches in impasse. A lot of people attribute the AR as a demonic act but was it? It wasn't the calculated act we'd see from Angelus, but it would seem soulledSpike wouldn't do such a thing. It's almost contradictory in terms. If he is so evil what stopped him? What drove him him to do it if he was in love with her? These contradictory notions made Spike attempt to sought out his identity crisis based upon his love for the Slayer.

Angelus behavior in season 2 was also very interesting, he clearly hated Buffy for the feelings Angel had for her. But the obsession he had, drove him mad. He was obsessed before with Drusilla, but not like this ... there was something else. Angelus was remembering what Angel felt like Angel feels what Angelus felt. Angelus doesn't have the ability to love like Angel does, but he came as close as he could. He could kill her in Passion, instead he was touching her and watched her while she was sleeping. Also in this case, there wasn't love ... but there were passion, lust and obsession. But it's intersting that the soulled version has such a influence over the soulless one.

Absolutely. Again, is it that Angelus didn't love Buffy or that he couldn't abide loving feelings in themselves (think purity)

Harmony is one of the most interesting case's, she is clearly soulless but she cares in her own way about others. In the end she screws Angel and his team over and she tries to kill the scoobies. But we also see her being sad because of Fred's death and she is comforting Gunn. Why she does those things? I'm not sure ... maybe to fit in somewhere or she really liked them and tried to help. In the end we don't have to doubt that Harmony is a soulless demon, because she has no problem with killing the same people and the last thing she does is care about that.

Harmony is an interesting one. In the end, Angel blamed her lack of loyalty on her lack of soul. Considering Harmony is kind of weak willed and often avoid responsibility it's hard to see where the demon ends and human begins...

***Nina*** · 03-03-08, 09:14 AM

Fantastic post,

Originally posted by kana View Post

My toughts exactly. I tell you what, it's interesting because I was having this convsersation with someone on MSN. How come the Gorch brothers and Kralik hid some (I'm sure many would agree) reprehensible deeds while still human. Liam generally, wasn't proportionately as cruel as Angelus (if at all). In fact Liam was if nothing else a self-forfilling prophecy of his father's disapproval (read between the lines of Prodigal and Spin the Bottle. In the latter episode Liam actually seem quite well behaved and polite, just a little shy although not too Wesley and until the vampire thing even that was awkward fumbling more than anything else)

It seems that his father's disapproval drove him to be something great so he became the most sadistic vampire that ever there was. Considering that Angel often seeks purity, it's seems that he found it in sorts as a vampire. No wonder he felt violated by love. But you're right, vampires are not static creatures. They adapt and change and Angelus is no different. They're prejudices and fears etc are a product of memories and the often unique psychological affect siring has(it really is different in each case)

Lets us not forget that a vampire is generally less inhibited and the demon can pervert seemingly virtuous qualities of the human (think Dru and kids, flowers, dolls etc)

Good point,
I never really thought about it like this. But there is a big chance that Angelus is this extreme because of Liam's issues and problems. This must be consequence of the memories, at least I think it is because the human soul left the body already.

And about Dru, great example and I think that this is the same case as Angelus' sadism. Only one little thing, we don't know how she was after the torture and before the siring, maybe she was crazy and damaged enough to be this twisted. We see the same by Dana in 'Damage', she is doing the same as what that man did to her. I think that Dru is this extreme because of the siring in combination with the damage.

**Enisy** · 16-04-08, 11:28 AM

Finally found that quote I always vaguely referred to, about how Spike didn't only get the soul for Buffy, but also for himself.

The Mutant Enemy team also felt that they needed to do something to Spike this year, which is why he wound up with a soul. Joss notes that one reason they had Spike decide it was time for a change after he tried to rape Buffy was that the vampire had come to some realisation about himself rather than simply respond to the Slayer's actions. "I'm not really sure we ever made the distinction, but if it was completely reacting to what she did, then there's no power to it, so [the motivation to change] would have to come from him."
There were other reasons as well: "On a very practical level, James was up for a movie. And so we were like, 'You know, Spike may have to be thin [in fewer scenes] towards the end of the season.' And so I had that in the back of my head: can he go somewhere? What would that be about? Also, we thought, 'Well, this is an unhealthy relationship', and if it reached its conclusion, the only way to take it would be to make him a new man, or at least make him try to be, which is a classic thing -- trying to just become the person you think your girlfriend will like more. So it worked on both those levels."

**vampmogs** · 16-04-08, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Enisy View Post

Finally found that quote I always vaguely referred to, about how Spike didn't only get the soul for Buffy, but also for himself.

The Mutant Enemy team also felt that they needed to do something to Spike this year, which is why he wound up with a soul. Joss notes that one reason they had Spike decide it was time for a change after he tried to rape Buffy was that the vampire had come to some realisation about himself rather than simply respond to the Slayer's actions. "I'm not really sure we ever made the distinction, but if it was completely reacting to what she did, then there's no power to it, so [the motivation to change] would have to come from him."
There were other reasons as well: "On a very practical level, James was up for a movie. And so we were like, 'You know, Spike may have to be thin [in fewer scenes] towards the end of the season.' And so I had that in the back of my head: can he go somewhere? What would that be about? Also, we thought, 'Well, this is an unhealthy relationship', and if it reached its conclusion, the only way to take it would be to make him a new man, or at least make him try to be, which is a classic thing -- trying to just become the person you think your girlfriend will like more. So it worked on both those levels."

Ya know, it's so surprising, to me at least, that they'd have said something like that because as far as what I saw, they just failed miserably at conveying it. There isn't any textual evidence whatsoever, not a morsel or even a hint, that this wasn't done solely for Buffy.

SPIKE: What mustn't a man do- for her, to be hers.

SPIKE: The changes, the soul it's what you wanted!

The only time Spike ever says he did it for any other reason at all was in 'Destiny' and seriously, Angel had every right to be sceptical because it came completely out of left field. It just sounded as if Spike was just making crap up to piss off Angel, and I still choose to think he was, either that or kidding himself. He'd always maintained that the changes were for Buffy, the cave demon even says it, Spike even says it in Africa. Trying to twist it around that he knew it was the right thing to do because of his ?destiny' was Spike over-selling himself in that scene, both vampires were guilty of it in ?Destiny.' A lot of truth was spoken but a lot of it was pretty self indulgent as well. The writers just failed terribly at getting what their intended message was across, because everything they placed in the episodes says otherwise.

**Enisy** · 16-04-08, 12:40 PM

Oh, no, I don't think it was his "destiny", not by a long shot. I just think he'd gotten to a point, by Seeing Red, where he felt more like a "man" than a "monster", or at least wanted it to be so. His realization that he'd hurt Buffy, and likely would again, was definitely the trigger, but I don't think the actual reason was so narrow. There was a personal choice involved when he got to that crossroads. ("It won't let me be a monster... and I can't be a man.")

**vampmogs** · 16-04-08, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Enisy View Post

Oh, no, I don't think it was his "destiny", not by a long shot. I just think he'd gotten to a point, by Seeing Red, where he felt more like a "man" than a "monster", or at least wanted it to be so. His realization that he'd hurt Buffy, and likely would again, was definitely the trigger, but I don't think the actual reason was so narrow. There was a personal choice involved when he got to that crossroads. ("It won't let me be a monster... and I can't be a man.")

I agree that there had to be some self reflection in order to make the choice. In the scene you quoted at the end he most certainly goes through a number of steps before reaching his ultimate decision. From starting with "why didn't I do it?" which really was the most appalling thing he could say, though to be expected, to the realisation that, as you say, he'd hurt Buffy again. So I do concede that there must be some self reflection, I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with Angel's very blunt assessment, "heard it was just go get into a girl's pants." But I do feel it was a lot closer to the truth than Spike's "it's my destiny" garbage, which we pretty much agree on.

Seriously there's so much inconsistency in the verse of vampire mythology it's really hard to determine what's right and what isn't. I mean an interesting discussion was raised some time ago concerning Darla and her ?re-birth' in Ats s2. Since she was brought back as human and with a soul, when she was sired as a vampire again people were asking does this mean technically she's not the same demon she once was, she's technically a new vampire? It certainly raised a lot of interesting discussion.

The way I see it, memories shape and make us who we are. You couldn't have a better example than the effect Dawn has on the characters, but in particular Buffy. This was a young girl who changed everything so minimal, a plot convenience for the writers to the mythology and continuity could feel the same for the fans, and didn't really change her the supporting cast to any great extent, yet still had a dramatic effect on Buffy. She wasn't the same girl from s4 to s5 once Dawn arrived, though the monks barley changed anything those few memories that did change, changed Buffy. And that's how I view the whole vampire mythology.

Technically, yes, Darla was a ?new vampire.' But to me a vampire was merely a blank canvas, nothing more than the animal was saw Angel turn into in Pylea. As Angel tells Willow, as Giles tells Xander, and as evident in such vampires as Harmony and VampWillow, they inhabit and often adopt the same personality and memories of the hosts they killed. So Darla was in fact the same person, new vampire host, but her memories were the same and the memories shape who she was, so she's still the same vampire more or less. There's nothing really different about her.

Spike was the same as Harmony, as a vampire he took on the persona of William, and soon felt ashamed of all of William's faults, resulting in his transformation into Spike. When adopting William's persona he was still an evil killer, but he adopted the more subtle and gentle approach. Angelus adopted Liam's personality the same way, as did Angel later on. I always viewed Liam as more or less an alcoholic, which also fits with Angel's blood addiction as discussed in ?City Off..' and demonstrated in episodes like ?Orpheus' and ?Angel' when he's holding Joyce. All vampires have bloodlust, but it seems to be a particular problem for Angel, kudos for him keeping it under control for a long time now. And as Angelus he adopted many of the more favourable characteristics of Liam but gave them an evil twist. We know that Liam had a photographic memory as seen in Ats s4, he was a brilliant illustrator and quite smart too, Angelus did prove to his father he'd "amount to something" and held a grudge against his father, even though really it was Liam's grudge.

Even Darla, who was arguably just as horrid as Angelus, took on angers of her human host. We saw Darla's bitterness in ?Darla' about being a whore, I think it's a good explanation for her appreciation for fine things and ?the view' after becoming a vampire. She wanted what her human self was never fortunate to have, she was sick of living in the filth and enjoyed living it up. And she let out her anger onto humankind, becoming what she was.

**NileQT87** · 16-04-08, 09:54 PM

thank you, vampmogs for pointing out how much of liam really is in angelus/angel. i'm a big proponent of the idea that angel and the soul is liam, plus all the memories of angelus in the interim that eventually changed liam into the halfway point that is angel. angel is liam with a lot of awful self-reflection and inner monologue inside his head and the addition of worldly memories.

we know liam is the source for wanting to see the world, need for purity, the belief that his father was a hypocritical sinner despite extolling the virtues of religion, the strong catholic religious source for angel's need for atonement and redemption, the photographic memory, the interest in languages, the reading, art, the tenderness towards loved ones (kathy), the need to always be the big boss man--to be in control making the decisions (the most obvious personality trait carried through all periods of liam, angelus and angel), the recovering alcoholic, etc...

now what do we get? angelus sees the world, learns a zillion languages, reads and collects many tomes, becomes an expert in existentialism, spites god obsessively (marks crosses on cheeks), hates anything pure, hates love and affection, has to be the boss and is his own ruler (good-bye to the master), etc...

and angel... redemption, purity, forgiveness, love, mercy, knowledge, power issues... all things that stem from liam... once liam has been sent through hell and back and come out a very different person when all of his very human faults are laid before his eyes in a demonic body he was pushed back into and now has to exchange an alcoholic problem for one that kills people if he relapses.

i don't think liam was ever a drunk idiot whoremonger at his heart. he was NOT a bad person. much of it was being stuck in the period he was in. girls he was surrounded with were morons (halloween), so he went to the worldly whores. he was disillusioned with what he saw as hypocrisy with his father's use of religion--which i surmise was the creation of the self-fulfilling prophecy. he also wished to see the world and not become a middle class linen merchant like his father. we know from his vast reading and art knowledge, he became extremely well-educated and was interested in such knowledge as liam. the fact that he had a photographic memory supports that desire. all signs point to a liam who was very dissatisfied with the life his father kept forcing upon him and he felt trapped by it.

really... most of angelus' and angel's personality traits do come from liam, because they are liam.

"i always wanted to see the world, but..."

and ironically--who does he end up with? a whore who shows him the world and has her own desires for love and purity and disillusionment with religion. unfortunately for darla, angelus turned into something that wasn't capable of loving her--and even as a soulless vampire, she was obsessed with being loved, even though she wouldn't admit it. it certainly came out in human darla and even vamp-darla around angel--who finally was capable of it and even then couldn't give it to her except on perhaps two occasions (when she was willing to die a natural death, she felt cared for for the first time--and then when she was able to love another for the first time with connor).

with spike, i think a lot of people think since william appeared only briefly in season 7 that the soul is just a conscience. but look at the period where spike has lapsed into william. he only becomes spike again once buffy has REJECTED william--that's not who she wanted (quite hypocritical after all her emphasis on the soul). buffy didn't need william--she seemed happier with the demon. so william put the masquerade back on and only a handful of times in season 5 ats did william reemerge to angel, but the badass defense mechanism was quickly put back on. there is one very telling scene where they call each other william and liam. i think buffy caused a lot of problems with william's psyche in get it done. it took liam 100 years to come to grips with angelus, and william shut off all of his self-reflection and put the duster back on because it was what buffy wanted of him--a girl who only cared for the slayer mission--her own demon--and had lost her human self. buffy couldn't even love the human william--she didn't ever really know him, and when she met him, she didn't want him too long. i think that speaks a lot for where buffy was (and is). certainly a stark contrast to early buffy who felt her human self was her most important. with angel, buffy was all about her human self and that was the part of her that angel loved. with riley, she couldn't love him and that's when her real beginnings of her identity as the slayer first, person second began--when angel left. with spike, it was the warrior slayer wanting a warrior demon--not a human wanting another human (or a human soul).

we heard the master refer to the "soul" of a vampire in reference to the soul as a being. the difference is that this is a demon soul, not a human soul. so when one refers to a vampire with a soul, you are differentiating between a demon and human soul and only counting the human one.

the vampire body is why a vampire is what it is. it needs to feed on blood like we need burgers and tacos. it is not inherently evil. like the majority of people don't feel guilt about needing to kill plants and animals for food (vegetarians aside, but even they eat plants). the point is, is that the vampiric constitution has a singular source of nutrition and choosing human blood over pig's blood is like choosing to eat fillet mignon over rats and gizzards. the demon has a natural instinct to hunt and kill because it needs to survive... same as humans farming and hunting. the bad part is that the vampire's basic needs directly interfere with humankind's. that is what makes them evil.

remember that a vampire was once a human, and that alone comes with all the memories of what they knew as a human. they intellectually understand that vampires are evil because they were once human. it's all darwinian. the new vampire wants to live too, and to do that, their survival against humans kicks in. that's what makes them evil to humans.

what is the wild card is who the person whose memories the newborn demon is stealing. for survival, the demon needs to take all the personal qualities of that person and make them into something that works for the needs of the vampire. essentially, the humans have created all the major traits and baggage--the demon just picks and chooses what it needs to survive and what is available to be evil from human remembered concepts of evil. the hatred of purity is probably a big part of it. on some level the demon gains an understanding from the human counterpart that itself is impure.

and there does seem to be an added piece of the soul being a conscience. it's both a being and an added conscience. the demon turns off any moral compass because it interferes with the most basic of base needs for existence, yet intellectually, the vampire has a full human understanding of human moral codes, which is where the true possibility of evil enters. that is what makes the vampire a human evil and not an animal seeking food and fighting for food.

**Enisy** · 16-04-08, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post

with spike, i think a lot of people think since william appeared only briefly in season 7 that the soul is just a conscience. but look at the period where spike has lapsed into william. he only becomes spike again once buffy has REJECTED william--that's not who she wanted (quite hypocritical after all her emphasis on the soul). buffy didn't need william--she seemed happier with the demon. so william put the masquerade back on and only a handful of times in season 5 ats did william reemerge to angel, but the badass defense mechanism was quickly put back on. there is one very telling scene where they call each other william and liam. i think buffy caused a lot of problems with william's psyche in get it done. it took liam 100 years to come to grips with angelus, and william shut off all of his self-reflection and put the duster back on because it was what buffy wanted of him--a girl who only cared for the slayer mission--her own demon--and had lost her human self. buffy couldn't even love the human william--she didn't ever really know him, and when she met him, she didn't want him too long. i think that speaks a lot for where buffy was (and is). certainly a stark contrast to early buffy who felt her human self was her most important. with angel, buffy was all about her human self and that was the part of her that angel loved. with riley, she couldn't love him and that's when her real beginnings of her identity as the slayer first, person second began--when angel left. with spike, it was the warrior slayer wanting a warrior demon--not a human wanting another human (or a human soul).

But Buffy is not only a human girl and Spike is not only William; they're also warriors, both on the surface and in spirit (after all, Joss makes a clear distinction between "strength" and "power" in interviews). I don't think Buffy asking Spike to integrate his warrior side with his "human" side was a bad thing for either of them, especially taking into account the results (even ignoring Spike's role in thwarting the First Evil, and skipping ahead to Season 5 of Angel... by the time Destiny aired, some of the writers were calling Spike "the better man" in comparison to Angel).

**NileQT87** · 16-04-08, 11:05 PM

not at all.

spike didn't start to become selfless until fred died. it was either a macho pissing contest, getting points in with girls or getting respect before that. spike still isn't a person who truly stands alone and is looking for his own personal redemption. he's still not there. the lack of self-reflection is an issue for him (even if it does make him more "cool" to be in his "big bad" mask). he had moments of clarity with dana and doing things because it's what he believes in (fred's death). another one was the pre-get it done spike. after that, he mostly regressed back to cool duster spike until the later part of ats. the pro-william part of me particularly liked his choice of persona during his last day in not fade away.

and yeah, buffy's regression is an issue. she's obviously not in a good place in season 8. can you see becoming buffy stealing and using yet another subordinate to feel? at least spike didn't think of himself as a subordinate. buffy treated him like she just wanted demon champion muscle and help with willpower in the last part of season 7 (and let's not forget her most selfish decision to date--mass slayerization minus freedom of choice).

stark contrast if you realize the end of season 4 ats was about angel fighting for freedom of choice and the end of season 7 btvs (running concurrently) had buffy taking away freedom of choice. angel as a vampire towards the end of his show had more of a connection to his human self than buffy to hers.

i've always had this funny little theory that the monks made dawn out of the human half of buffy and left buffy with the slayer.

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