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  • Buffy or Angel?

    I was suprised by the number of members who don't like Buffy or/and prefer Angel. So, I wanted to know how unpopulair that opinion is.

    BTW, this thread is about Angel, not Angelus.

    Some questions:

    Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?

    Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?

    Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?

    Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?

    Wich moment did you like them the most?

    Which moment did you dislike them the most?

    If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?

    In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?

    edit:

    Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?
    I prefer Angel, but he is my favourite character, so I will always pick him. But I love Angel's journey, his humor and his good heart. I posted a couple of days ago about how the writers write Angel and why I love him. The post is eaten by the board, but to make that post short; I love Angel because he will fall when he makes a mistake and the best part ... he always stands up again. He gets what he deserves, no mary-sue persona or writers fiat to save Angel. Angel isn't perfect, he knows it and we know it. Buffy will never fall like Angel does, but she will never come back, like he can come back.

    Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?
    Yes, but she lost me in season 7 and she didn't won me back yet. Like I said in the answer above this one; If Angel makes a mistake, he is punished and Buffy lost me when she wasn't 'punished'. I'm not a great fan of mary-sue's and writer fiats ... it makes me dislike the character.

    Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?
    I fell in love with her character in season 1 .. loved her in season 2-4 ... maybe 5. After that, they lost me ... I didn't knew anymore what she thought, what she really wanted ...

    Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?
    I love all the versions ... but his grey moments are his best moments. I love that arc in season 2 ... it makes Angel suprising and you keep thinking about his actions.

    Wich moment did you like them the most?
    Buffy: When she killed Angel in 'Becoming' and when she went to face the master in 'Prophecy Girl'.
    Angel: When he faced Holtz in season 3.

    Which moment did you dislike them the most?
    Buffy: Her behavior in LMPTM will never stop bothering me, and that one scene in 'DT' when she is laughing about Spike's story about him killing a designer.
    Angel: The only moment I really disliked Angel was in tGiQ ... I'm not a big fan of 40 minutes full of Petty!Angel, and this one wasn't just petty!Angel ... but also OOC!Angel.

    If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?
    Angel's journey ... he is not just my favourite character ... but I also prefer his journey. It's much more intersting to see a good but really flawed man make mistakes and fall ... to stand up again. Than to see a young girl who saves the world ... again and again. Buffy makes mistakes ... but they are less big or just fixed by writers fiat.

    In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?
    Angel, he never had his victory ... it would be nice to end the series with Angel's first big victory than to see one of Buffy's many victories.
    63
    Buffy
    44.44%
    28
    Angel
    28.57%
    18
    I love them both so much ... I can't pick one.
    23.81%
    15
    Love the shows ... but I really dislike Buffy and Angel.
    1.59%
    1
    Something else,
    1.59%
    1
    Last edited by Nina; 29-02-08, 10:50 PM.


  • #2
    Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?
    Buffy hands down

    Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?
    nope ive never liked angel as a charcter and i hated the series

    Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?
    high school buffy, it was funnier and had some one the best slang

    Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?
    I dont watch angel but id have to say evil angel, he was kinda creepy

    Which moment did you like them the most?
    hmm i dont know i liked it when buffy won class protector award at the prom it was sweet.

    Which moment did you dislike them the most?

    hmmm im not sure probably in "when she was bad"

    If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?
    Buffy (but you cant read either of thier stories without the other character being in it)

    In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?
    Buffy again.

    im pretty biased about this to be honest. lol.
    "Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings; shindig, dip, less mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage; and hootenanny, well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny"

    Comment


    • #3
      Just curious;

      What did you see of Ats? You say that you hate the series, but you don't watch it either?

      Comment


      • #4
        Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?
        Buffy, I see a real evolution with the character and I'm moved by the girl, by her choices and mistakes, loves and break-ups and I love how she becomes a strong, beautiful woman in Season 7.

        Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)
        Angel's story keeps going back, going forward, but there's absolutely no link between those, the flashbacks are poping just to fill up some screen time, he's completely touched after the Gypsies curse, two years later he's hanging out with three killers at the Boxers Rebellion; in the 50' he's a classy lonely guy and boom, 40 years later he's a wreck who doesn't know you can buy blood at the butcher shop but drinks butcher shop's blood 40 years ago, and just 1 year after being a wreck he's a funny guy with a fancy suit and all who come to Sunnydale to help a 15 years old girl with Candy hair and a pink skirt he instantanely falls in love with...Just gimme a break!!!
        You can really see in the writings that he wasn't supposed to be back after season 2.

        Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?
        Season 7 Buffy, she's strong and beautiful, she finally knows who she is and what she have to do.

        Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?
        Angelus, he's the only interesting part of Angel.

        Which moment did you like them the most?
        Buffy: Chosen, especially the moment she talks to The First/Caleb, she feels calm, sure, beautiful, strong, serene.
        Angel: Angelus in Becoming, he rocks.

        Which moment did you dislike them the most?
        Buffy: In Season 5, when she's playing "the big sister", it's gettin' old.
        Angel: In Season 3, he's really boring!!

        If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?
        Buffy's journey as I explained above.

        In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?
        Neither, she's a slayer among 1000 others and he's just a vampire with a soul. I'd say Willow!
        Last edited by Pandora's_Box; 01-03-08, 01:20 AM.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
          Angel's story keeps going back, going forward, but there's absolutely no link between those, the flashbacks are poping just to fill up some screen time, he's completely touched after the Gypsies curse, two years later he's hanging out with three killers at the Boxers Rebellion; in the 50' he's a classy lonely guy and boom, 40 years later he's a wreck who doesn't know you can buy blood at the butcher shop but drinks butcher shop's blood 40 years ago, and just 1 year after being a wreck he's a funny guy with a fancy suit and all who come to Sunnydale to help a 15 years old girl with Candy hair and a pink skirt he instantanely falls in love with...Just gimme a break!!!
          Angel's story is supposed to be inflicted. It's all about his internal struggles, "the road to redemption is a rocky path." It was the writers intentions to see him fall and fail, and then reach great heights again. He lived with remorse for over a hundred years of slaughter, it was never supposed to be easy for him or one smooth ride. The flashbacks were meant to convey that, they weren't there just to take up screen time. If you notice each flashback in there for a purpose, it relates to the story in the present and also gives us much needed background for his character. He's one of the most explored and detailed character in the Buffyverse.

          You can really see in the writings that he wasn't supposed to be back after season 2.
          Joss had already planned to give him a spin off before 'Becoming II' had even aired. So he was definitly supposed to come back after s2, there was never an indication that this wasn't and hadn't always been, the intended plan.

          ~ Banner by Nina ~

          Comment


          • #6
            Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?
            I said both. I love them both at different times more then at others.

            Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?
            I love Buffy up until ... the end of season 5 or season 6 on. I haven't been able to relate to her much since then, but still love her character.

            Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?
            I think I enjoy Angel the most in Angel season 1 and 2.

            Wich moment did you like them the most?
            Buffy: Becoming where she catches the sword and says 'me'. Also The Freshman.
            Angel: When he's bantering with Spike in season 5. Owh and when he lays into that sexist guy in Billy.

            Which moment did you dislike them the most?
            Buffy: Not sure I've ever disliked her.. maybe some moments in season 8 with Faith. Or when she was beating Spike to a bloody mess.
            Angel: When he decides to go all out on evil humans.. like in Conviction or Hellbound.

            If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?
            Buffy's.

            In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?
            Buffy.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?
              Buffy because she just kicks ass! I'm all for female empowerment and she was the best character to show it. Plus her character intrigued me a lot more than Angel ever did. Oh and there was a Buffy movie way before there were either shows so I've just adored the character of Buffy a lot longer.

              Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?
              I like Angel. I liked the Bangel relationship. However I didn't like Ats. It didn't really interest me all that much. I mean I like the crossover episodes of Ats (mostly because Buffy is in them) but his character didn't impress me. I thought it was a tad boring tbh. So yes I like Angel but I don't like his show.

              Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?
              Most definitely Buffy the Bitca!!!!!! (I still don't understand why people put the ! in there ) No I like all the Buffy's. Highschool all the way to Couselor.

              Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?
              I like Dark!Angel. Writing that I thought of Jessica Alba to be honest so let me word it as saying I like Angelus. He was a very good bad guy.

              Which moment did you like them the most?
              Umm probably because it's my favorite episode but Buffy in Enemies was awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God it's just the best when she's all bad ass and knows just what to say to push someone's buttons. Faith: "Do you think you're better than me? Do you? Say it you think you're better than me." Buffy: "I am. Always have been." OMG I am soooo with her on this one that it gets me all giddy everytime I hear her say it. I'm like BURN!

              Which moment did you dislike them the most?
              Never. I don't think I've ever disliked her character really. I mean I understand why she acted the way she did at times so no, never disliked her character. If we were talking about all the other scoobies then I could list a ton of things.

              If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?
              Buffy's of course! It's like reading either one of the comics. So far I've tried reading both, only got through one of Angels and all of Buffy's. That shows you something.

              In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?
              BUFFY!!!!!!!! Honestly if I answered Buffy to the first one obviously my answers to the other questions would most likely be the same.
              T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

              Proud recipient of the "Vagenis Award of Excellence"

              Comment


              • #8
                Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?

                Angel, because I both think the show is more interesting, and there's more to explore with his character since he already has a two-hundred year history.

                Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?

                Yeah, I like Buffy too.

                Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?

                I like high school Buffy the best. She's cheery, funny, supportive of her friends, knows who she is, and while still a bit self-involved, nowhere near Season Seven levels.

                Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?

                After Angel gets back from hell, I never stop liking him. (Except in "Provider". But still, 1 episode out of 129 isn't bad.)

                Which moment did you like them the most?

                For Buffy, I agree with Joss: when she lifts that rocker launcher, I have never loved her more. I love "Innocence" Buffy so much. For Angel, it's "To Shanshu in L.A." Protective and loving of his friends, fighting the good fight, but not afraid to cross the line a bit.

                Which moment did you dislike them the most?

                For Buffy, it's "Empty Places". When she gives her whole speech about how they all have to fall in line, I want to smack her. Yeah, she's been through a lot, but get over yourself and appreciate that these people (especially Xander, Willow, Anya, Giles, Dawn, and Wood) don't have to be here--they're here because they're trying to help you. For Angel, it's "Provider". I can't stand him so superficially concerned with money-- he's supposed to help the helpless, dammit!

                If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?

                Well, if she had retained her Season Three personality, maybe Buffy. It'd be close. But since she hasn't, it's definitely Angel.

                In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?

                Buffy, definitely. It all started with her.
                The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?

                  Buffy, because she is more dynamic. (I may be biased from only watching season 1 and a few other episodes of Angel so far.) Angel just doesn't seem like he can carry a show. Dark and broody hero, morality, redemption... that can only take you so far even in a noiresque show. Buffy's character has more potential because she defies convention. She has equals and very close friends, who can complicate plot and add interesting elements. Angel is Always Right, because he Knows Better, because he's been evil/is a demon. That storyline gets old.

                  Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?

                  Angel is pretty good in what I've watched of ATS when he's not a) performing some "heroic feat" that only he can do because he's "been there" (He's *special*!), or b) acting superior, or the closely related c) taking the moral high ground. On Buffy, everything is great until he gets on the screen. Normally I'd just say he's OK until he gets near Buffy, but on BTVS, Boreanaz' acting is as bad as Blucas'.

                  Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?

                  Definitely Season 5 Buffy. Everything was good in that season except the lighting.

                  Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?

                  The Angel that gets mocked mercilessly on his own show for being a dork. "I say when we use the cell phones and... people are gonna die and... I have to go."

                  Which moment did you like them the most?

                  Buffy gets The Gift and most of season 5. The most outstanding moment has to be her sacrifice for Dawn.
                  Angel? Hero. When he and Cordy are watching the videotape over again.

                  Which moment did you dislike them the most?

                  Buffy - LMPTM (her disgusting behavior towards Wood and Dawn), Empty Places (guess), Revelations
                  Angel - Bad Eggs, Five by Five (when he says "We're not a team, I'm your boss" and then at the end which just seems forced)

                  If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?

                  Buffy's journey.

                  In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?

                  Buffy without a doubt. But helped by her friends. Angel can help too, if they never talk about their relationship.
                  Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
                  Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Angel is Always Right, because he Knows Better, because he's been evil/is a demon. That storyline gets old.
                    Well, I'd say that after Season One of Angel (and even during Season One, sometimes), Angel is more wrong than right. He's most decidedly NOT perfect, and maybe not even the good guy, which is shown in various different ways throughout seasons 2-5 with multiple foils to Angel's character. He really doesn't know better; he just does the best he can. That makes him so much more interesting to me than Buffy, because Angel's plans really don't all work out in the end. He doesn't get the magical amulet and the Deus Axe Machina (tm TWOP) to bail him out-- he suffers more. Plus, Boreanaz's acting improves almost expontentially.
                    The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?
                      Have to say I love them both, and I don't think it's fair to compare them in this sense. As far as TV shows go I'll say Buffy because the first 1.5 seasons of Angel were pretty crap. But as far as characters go.......

                      Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?
                      Yes.

                      Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?
                      All of them. Each 'Buffy' is apart of her development as a person and as a slayer and Buffy wouldn't be who she is without her past. Uh, you get what I mean. If we had the same 'Buffy' character for 7 seasons she would have gotten pretty boring (which I believe she didn't)

                      Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?
                      Um, same answer, though I generally prefer watching Angel in BtVS because he still had his mystery and theirs is a love that will never die! Atv took longer to find it's feet as a show and they had to establish the characters all over again (which they did very well)

                      Wich moment did you like them the most?
                      I Won't Forget You or every other soappy romantic heartache end of the world moment they have.

                      Which moment did you dislike them the most?
                      Maybe S7 with the cookiedough speech or Atv when Faith comes back and Buffy and Angel fight about it. Just annoyed me that neither got the others point of view.

                      If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?
                      Angel's seems more interesting because of Angelus, but I can sympathise with Buffy more.

                      In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?
                      Buffy. Hands down. I have a problem with people banging on about Angel being a champion. Yeah, he is, but he's fighting for redemption for his past while Buffy is fighting for the future.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nina View Post
                        Just curious;

                        What did you see of Ats? You say that you hate the series, but you don't watch it either?
                        Hey sorry havn't looked at this thread in a while.
                        Well I watched the first few episodes years ago becuase my mum liked it, but im not an Angel fan so it was really boring to me.
                        Also I had to watch it in media studies a few months ago and I still didnt like it. I think im just incredibly biased because Angel doesnt really do anything for me, I didn't even like him in Buffy. But I try not to annoy people with my anti-Angel bias. I do think he's needed to make the buffy storyline successful and i respect that, he's just not a favourite of mine.
                        I hope that answered your question
                        "Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings; shindig, dip, less mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage; and hootenanny, well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thank you, I was just curious.
                          And I'm kind of protective over Angel and Ats, I love both so much ... BTW I wish that my mother loved it ... she thinks it's freaky.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hope this is the right thread! I just thought I'd post some AtS quotes that show Angel inspiring his team, and the effect that he's had on others.

                            Faith: I'm not gonna kill him, Wesley. Angelus. I don't care what you thought you sprung me for. Angel's the only one in my life who's never given up on me. There's no way I'm giving up on—(4.12 Salvage)

                            Lilah: There was always a small part of [Wesley] that thought [he] could pull me back from the brink of my evil, evil ways. Help me find redemption. Angel's influence, I suppose. The whole not giving up on someone, no matter how far he—or she—has fallen. (4.13 Salvage)

                            Gunn: It's about the mission, bro. [Angel]'s got it. You don't. (3.03 That Old Gang of Mine)

                            Connor: You gotta do what you can to protect your family. I learned that from my father. (5.18 Origin)

                            Angel: All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world.

                            Kate: Yikes. It sounds like you had an epiphany.

                            Angel: I keep saying that. But nobody's listening.

                            Kate: Well, I'm pretty much convinced, since I'm alive to be convinced. (2.16 Epiphany)

                            Angel: Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. (4.01 Deep Down)

                            Angel: This isn't a keep-fightin'- the-good-fight kind of deal. Let's be clear. I'm talking about killing every... single...member... of the Black Thorn. We don't walk away from that. We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to. 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So...I need you to be sure. Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote. As a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do, think about what I'm asking you to give. (5.21 Power Play)

                            And after that, Spike, Wesley, Gunn, and Lorne all agree to help Angel.

                            I actually think that, if you look at the Scooby Gang vs. Angel Investigations, Angel's motivated more people to help him fight than Buffy did. Buffy really only has Willow, Xander, Giles, and her three boyfriends that she motivated to help. Anya helps because she's in love with Xander, so she's doing whatever he does. She doesn't really even like Buffy. Tara helps because of Willow, and while I think that she believes in "the mission" more than Anya does, she's motivated by Willow, not Buffy.

                            Doyle was directly motivated by Angel to give his life for the greater good-- although he was sent by the PTB, it is Angel's actions in "I Will Remember You" that make him willing to sacrifice himself in "Hero". Gunn, too, was directly motivated by Angel; he realizes that Angel is trying to do what's right in the world, and he should align himself with that. Faith, of course, is Angel's poster child for success, and the quote above shows that she credits him with helping her. Connor and Wesley's quotes about how Angel inspired them are also there. You've also got Cordelia, who was willing to give her life to make sure Angel kept fighting, and Fred, whom Angel saved from Pylea and brought back to the real world.
                            The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I had a very long post and when I wanted to post it, internet left me and I lost my post. This will be a shorter version because I'm hungry by now and need dinner.

                              Originally posted by Michael View Post
                              Nina,
                              I enjoy my debates with you and I do not want personal ill feeling to creep in if I can avoid it. To me "perverse" is a term used in robust controversy in newspapers, periodicals, learned journals, and even law courts. It is a bit strong, and not always accurate, but it is not rude according to the conventions of debate.
                              I still think that you shouldn't use that word, but my reaction was heavy because in the Netherlands, we use that word to describe sick things like sex with childeren or animals. So, I thought that you called my opinion, a sick minded opinion.


                              You do not deny that it was Buffy who inspired Angel to start a new life, as she also inspired Spike to do the same a few years later. Since Angel and Buffy had not met at that time it must have been something in her character that spoke him before she ever said anything.
                              I won't deny that, of course not. But what's your point?

                              If Angel is not responsible for the crimes of Angelus, what is Angel atoning for? His unpaid parking tickets?
                              for my view on this, I would like to point to the vampire mythology thread in this subforum, I explained everything about my thinking there.

                              Unless I have misunderstood you, you seem to be saying that Liam was not to blame for being a drunken lout in Dublin because of his awful upbringing; Angel is not to blame for the crimes of Angelus; yet Angel is responsible for his good deeds in the present and is entitled to the credit.
                              You misunderstood me,
                              Liam was guilty, but I wanted to point out that he wasn't a bad person, there were reasons why he acted like that. And of course, Angel should get credit for the good things he did ... just like he should pay for his mistakes. I think that Angel is responsible for everything he did after he recieved his soul, and before he was sired. It's the soulless/soulled thing again.

                              Don't be offended, but you sound like a clever lawyer who is pushing her luck.
                              Are you serious? There is no objectivity in your posts at all, and then you say that I'm pushing my luck? Angel is my favourite character and I'm probably not completly objective ... but I try it at least ... And I think that you aren't the person to call anyone subjective or to say that he/she is pushing his/her luck.


                              In Sanctuary Buffy certainly had a better claim on Faith than Angel did. His attitude trivialized Buffy's traumatic suffering. I might be wrong, but I suspect that his ego had taken over and he liked the idea of being Father Angel who was going to lead this lost soul back into the light. There are worse motives of course. And I think he did say "LA is my town" or "Stay out of my town" as if his permission were necessary.
                              Why did Buffy had a better claim on Faith? I get that Buffy was pissed, but that wasn't the point in that episode. It was an Ats episode, so it's about Angel ... and Angel helps people who need him. Faith needed him and he helped her, I won't deny that Angel should've showed more sympathy towards Buffy but that's all he did wrong that episode. Angel's calling is to help people, and that is what he did.
                              Why are you denying Vampmogs who already mentioned that Buffy called Sunnydale 'her town' to show Angel that he shouldn't do there what he thinks is right, why is Angel a bad person for doing the same? I mean, Buffy is the perfect person in your opinion.
                              I think that they are both right, they should stay away from the fight of the other.

                              Back in Sunnydale Angel's bullish,mannerless aggression started the trouble with Riley. He could quite easily have introduced himself in a courteous way and asked if it would okay for him to have a word with Buffy. Not that Riley's permission was strictly necessary, but it would have been a decent,friendly way to proceed. Yet it would have been out of character for Angel to act in that fashion--according to my impression of him.
                              Again, Vampmogs already covered this in his reply to your post. Riley and Angel were fighting, both ... not just Angel. And I see that you don't give an opnion on the making amends issue. But Angel being a mature guy who want to make amends isn't a bad thing, so it probably didn't happen in your version.

                              So far as the Gem of Amara goes you are probably right on the issue of substance. Yet Buffy gave him the Gem so that he could have the choice. He could have returned it to her, with his thanks and his love and his reasons for rejecting it.
                              What do you want? That he went to Sunnydale to kiss her feet and to ask if he can destroy the ring? You really think that Oz left without a message for Buffy? Or that Angel won't call Buffy to explain what happened?

                              That would not be Angel's style though,would it?
                              Yeeh, another comment to push me over the edge.

                              Angel did help Wesley to change from a buffoon into a man and I do give him credit there. Cordelia was able to grow into a mature young woman while remaining the same person. (Much credit to Charisma Carpenter on that point.)
                              Angel gave them the chance, the credit for growing up goes to Wesley and Cordelia.

                              Yet I have a memory of him firing his staff after refusing to share with them. Later he came back asking them to employ him , or something.
                              Yes, he made mistakes and he payed for it. Such a good boy.

                              I can imagine you saying how much better this was compared to Buffy's attitude. But my glamorous,swashbuckling super heroine does not do humility. It is a flaw, I agree, but it is one I want her to keep.
                              You imagined it perfectly, because I think that Angel showed way more respect to his team than Buffy showed to her team. I want her to keep that flaw as well, but not because I think that it makes her a great leader or person, but because flaws make a character great.

                              I have only seen the Angel episodes once, a few years ago, but I will have another look. For the moment I have in my mind the impression of a human blunt instrument that just keeps coming.
                              Wasted time I guess, you can't see any good things in Angel ... and you don't sound like you want to give him a new chance.
                              Last edited by Nina; 08-04-08, 06:28 PM. Reason: because 'heep' isn't a word.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Ok I didn't really know where to post this but this is re the whole Angel vs Buffy thing in regards to what to do with Faith. I'll try not to let the fact that Angel is my favourite character sway this but...

                                I tell you what's interesting about this situation: it's symptomatic of Buffy quitting the WC. I'm not suggesting that in itself was a ill-advised move because as Giles and later Buffy pointed out, she is the one in the thick of it. However, there is now no overriding authority on such issues (although one may argue there was never one to begin with).

                                Doyle and Wesley both touch upon some interesting terms in regards to Buffy and Angel respectively: "Renegade"/Vigilante. I've always maintained this means Buffy and Angel do not have 'imposed' authority, in fact they are their own bosses and they make their own rules. Faith isn't implicitly Buffy's responsibility nor Angel's. Both of them chose their paths and chose how to deal with such situations. Sunnydale isn't anyone's territory nor is LAs, Buffy and Angel chose to operate in those places.

                                A year before, Wesley gave Buffy a lecture on laws that have existed before civilisation but Buffy didn't care and to be honest I agree that, blindly following a patriarcal sytem, who seemed just as interested in dominance as they do in justice required a step that empowers Buffy and the individuals working with her. For a long time, Giles, Angel, the scoobies, all cooperated as a team. Although Buffy has made the plans, she as also taken advice, and let others make decisions in leiu of her.

                                Cooperation is fine, great even until we have a disagreement. If they are in disagreement, does anyone pull rank and if so, in which situation?

                                Buffy wanted revenge on Faith but also believed that Faith should be punished. I'll take punishment by prison out of the equation because I agree with Wes and Angel that holding a Slayer in prison against her will is pretty dumb, I'm still not even sure why Buffy suggested it, (perhaps her anger was chipping away at her IQ points). So the only option left that Buffy was willing to adhere to was 'Slayer law'. In other words Buffy would get the final say as to what happens to Faith. After everything that Faith did to her, she feels she has a right to make that call.

                                Angel doesn't think Faith should simply get away with what happened. If she were totally soulless or sociopathic, this may be different but he believed that Faith did feel remorse for her actions and therefore, simply living with it is punishment in itself. He also thinks Buffy's intervention will have a detrimental effect on Faith's redemption. Angel believes in saving souls, that's the path he's defined for himself. He chooses not to let Buffy interfere because it goes against that credo. His soul saving mission is part of his redemption and he isn't about to let Buffy balls it up.

                                Both viewpoints seem incompatible and this is problematic when dealing with the good and plenties. Unlike the WC and Initiative or even institutions of evil, their main priority isn't simply the jealous coveting of power, it's about what's right or what they believe is right. I personally don't think Buffy has rank over Angel in LA or Sunnydale unless they somehow formally agree on guidlines. Angel implied that they had agreed to 'deal' with their respective towns but, that was as much about their relationship as it was about jurisdiction, arguably more so.

                                The saving grace happens in The Yoko Factor when Angel apologizes for what happened in LA. At first I though "Why does Angel have to apologize?" but then I looked at it from Angel's perspective. It wasn't simply about being right but mending the fractures in the relationship. Buffy also apologized for making judgements about Angel was trying to do. This doesn't magic away the issues between Faith and Buffy (as we see) nor does completely define the lines of authority among the good and plenties. What it does do is instigate the foundatioms of a situation where Champions can coexist and cooperate without being too detrimental to each others mission statement. This is more likely to happen when Angel and Buffy are not fighting each other as champions or ex-lovers.

                                On to the questions at hand

                                Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?

                                Angel. Is because he's beautifully f***ed up a reason? His humanist (post epiphany) approach to being a champion was something that responded to me. There is something about a loner trying to connect with people that with all it's pitfalls rings true. He allows his weakness to oft become his strength. Is he unbiased in his mission? Who said one has to be? Buffy certainly isn't and he is honest (at least with Darla) that is a self serving side to it, the connection works both ways and it needs to have meaning to it. If you remove that completely, then you get the WC.

                                Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?

                                Yes. I love Buffy. I love her heart and how she tries. Even when she's not pleasant, it more often than none comes from a good place. I'll get chewed out for this but I loved her empowerment of Dawn (I ignore any anything subsequent that contradicts it, please don't take my moment away from me lol.) and also of Faith in Empty Places, a defining moment that a lot of people miss. I also like her getting insight into her superiority complex. It hasn't solved the problem but without that insight she'd be nowhere near. Now we need to attend to her loneliness: self-imposed or inevitable given the circumstances. Ahh I forgot how much I loved her.

                                Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?

                                Umm. I can tell you which Buffy I didn't like: Season 4, especially late Season 4 and it's not just because of the hair, I just find her atttitude to be exemplary of what she was talking about in CWDP. That's not the only time but it's the time I most remember. I liked her in Seasons 1, 2, 3, 6 and 7 (for the superiority complex insight and Faith empowerment).

                                Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?

                                All of them!!!!

                                Which moment did you like them the most?

                                Buffy for sending Angel to hell (huh, did I hear that right?) Yes. It was probably one of Buffy's defining moments.

                                Angel? Epiphany speech and choosing free will and trusting humanity (to a degree)

                                Which moment did you dislike them the most?

                                Buffy in Sanctuary. I understand her anger but her treatment of Angel was pure yuk. Angel treating Wes like poo in Disharmony. Did he ever understand that by attempting bond with Cordy like that he was alienating his friend who had just been shot. Also any time he treated Lorne like his Valet/butler/lackey rather than his friend.

                                If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?

                                Angel, then I'd read Angel's again.

                                In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?

                                They should both find a world to save . No seriously, to be honest Buffy because it's more her thing. Angel's more interesting when he's fighting for a concept or individual souls or generally trying to make up for what's happened before.
                                Last edited by kana; 08-04-08, 06:45 PM.

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                                • #17
                                  Great post Kana,

                                  I think that they don't want to say that the city or town is theirs, but to make the difference between the fights. Angel should do anything in Buffy's 'world' without her knowledge, and Buffy has no right to say that Angel is wrong when she walks into his 'world'.

                                  And I still think that Buffy should be the one to make the first step, she was the one who was wrong in 'Sanctuary' and started the 'fight'. I get your idea why he did it and I think that is what happened ... but I'm still on the 'Buffy was more wrong and should sorry first' bandwagon. I guess I'm less mature than Angel.

                                  And LaJaula, I love all those quotes because that's where Angel and Ats is about. Angel speeches and ideas about the world always make me happy.

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                                  • #18
                                    Who do you prefer? Angel or Buffy ... and why?

                                    I love them both in the same amount. They rank high on my list of favorite characters. But I think I'm emotionally drawn to Buffy more. I enjoy reading fanfic centering on Buffy more, but she had annoyed me more than Angel did. I'm not sure who to pick. I love them both, but in the end, I enjoy watching Buffy's advantures more, maybe because I relate to her more.

                                    Do you like the other character (If you prefer Buffy ... do you like Angel?)?

                                    Like I said. Love both of them.

                                    Which 'Buffy' do you like the most (Highschool!Buffy, Depressed!Buffy, General!Buffy etc.)?

                                    Highschool!Buffy is my favorite to watch on TV. Depressed!Buffy is my favorite to read fics about. As for General!Buffy, I dislike her.

                                    Which 'Angel' do you like the most (BtVS!Angel, Dark!Angel, Daddy!Angel etc.)?

                                    I love all types of Angels. Except BtVS!Angel, however, I enjoy reading him in fanfic paired with Xander.

                                    Wich moment did you like them the most?

                                    With Buffy, it's not a moment, but I really love how forgiving her character is. She forgives her friends for hurting her a lot, she forgives Angel, Riley and Spike for hurting her a lot.

                                    With Angel, I really loved how he tried to win his friends trust in S2. I love that he cared about them so much to try as well as how much he appreciated their support to try and win them back.

                                    Which moment did you dislike them the most?

                                    "You sent the only one watching my back away" or something like that. I hate that comment. Spike surely wasn't the only one watching her back at this point. Especially when Xander was lying in the hospital because he had watched her back.

                                    With Angel, I hated how he seemed to forget all about Cordelia at the mere mention of Buffy. And how he tried to win her back when he was the one who left her because they could never work.

                                    If you had to choose between Angel's journey and Buffy's journey ... which one would you prefer to read about?

                                    Buffy's.

                                    In the end, in the last battle we will read about ... who should save the world? Angel or Buffy?

                                    Together. That would be awesome.
                                    Made by Trickyboxes
                                    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Nina,
                                      Let us be clear about what it is we disagree about, and where there is, possibly, common ground.

                                      When I said "perverse" you thought I meant "perverted". They are different.

                                      I don't think that Buffy is beyond criticism or that Angel deserves no respect at all. I am biased in favor of Buffy, it is true, but I think to acknowledge one's own bias is a way to start being fair minded.

                                      Which one of us is more subjective? Neither of us is qualified to say. We need an independent impartial arbitrator---such as Spike, for example.

                                      You said that you did not see what my point was in mentioning that it was the sight of Buffy that inspired Angel to get a new life? Without Buffy there would have been no Angel Investigations, no mission in LA. No outside reader of our debate would get that point if I did not make it.

                                      In Sanctuary Buffy had just experienced her body and her life being stolen. You say that you understand why Buffy was "pissed." That is carrying understatement beyond a joke. Even so Buffy did help to save Faith from the Watchers Council "special operations unit" which shows that Buffy had a grip on her anger and was observing the right priorities.

                                      I think at this point it is finally established that the WC, as an institution, is malevolent and incompetent.

                                      On the whole I believe it would have been the right and gentlemanly thing for Angel to go to see Buffy to patch things up.But was that it? Until Faith let the cat out of the bag Angel did not know about Riley. On the evidence of what we see, it is reasonable to suspect that Angel wanted to sort out Riley because he was jealous. Spike was right when he said to Angel and Buffy , "You will never be friends."

                                      I think Buffy slapped Angel because she was in love with him.

                                      When Angel decided not to keep the Ring of Amara he could have said he was returning it to Buffy so that she could decide what to do with it. It was her call, by rights.

                                      And why didn't Angel accept it? Since he was on a mission to do good, would he not have more power to do good if he wore the ring? I think he had other opportunities to live like a more normal human being, but turned them down. Was he in love with the tragedy of his own life? These are not unfair questions.

                                      I will read your thoughts on the vampire soul matter after my own rather late dinner. I do not see why you should doubt my willingness to look at the Angel series again, and give him a chance .I said I would. Do you think I am a politician? Think again please.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        When Angel decided not to keep the Ring of Amara he could have said he was returning it to Buffy so that she could decide what to do with it. It was her call, by rights.
                                        She gave it to him; that makes it his. If you say that it should be hers because she had it first, that logic doesn't hold up either-- she took it from Spike, so he's technically the original owner. Once Buffy gives it to Angel, it's his decision as to what to do with it. That brings me to my next point--

                                        And why didn't Angel accept it? Since he was on a mission to do good, would he not have more power to do good if he wore the ring?
                                        Angel clearly states in "In the Dark" why he gives up the ring.

                                        Doyle: So what, you don’t get the ring because your period of self-flagellation isn’t over yet? I mean think of all the daytime people you could help between 9 and 5.
                                        Angel: They have help. The whole world is designed for them, so much that they have no idea what goes on around them after dark. They don’t see the weak ones lost in the night, - or the things that prey on them. And if I join them, maybe I’d stop seeing, too.

                                        Honestly, I haven't ever heard anyone say that it was offensive to Buffy to destroy the ring, and I'm a bit confused as to why you're so focused on it. Buffy obviously didn't care.

                                        I think Buffy slapped Angel because she was in love with him.
                                        I really don't understand this at all. She slapped him because she was angry with him. She may have been in love with him, but really that's besides the point. She didn't think, "Oh, I'm in love with Angel, I'll smack him!" She thought, "Angel's really pissing me off right now, I'll smack him."

                                        On the whole I believe it would have been the right and gentlemanly thing for Angel to go to see Buffy to patch things up.But was that it? Until Faith let the cat out of the bag Angel did not know about Riley. On the evidence of what we see, it is reasonable to suspect that Angel wanted to sort out Riley because he was jealous.
                                        Angel did go to see Buffy to patch things up. His reasons for going had nothing to do with Riley. Once Angel arrived in Sunnydale, he was attacked by the Initiative, and then met Riley. It's not like he learned that Riley was dating Buffy and then directly proceeded to hunt him down and beat him up.
                                        Last edited by LaJaula; 08-04-08, 10:57 PM.
                                        The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

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