Who was the first evil?

[Lily]

Maybe I'm missing something - but it bugs me every time I watch buffy/ats.
If the First was the 'first evil' - and Wolfram & Hart have 'always existed'. Who really was first?

[KingofCretins]

The First was the first. I don't think we're ever told anything about the Senior Partners that can override that. The Wolf, Ram, and Hart were contemporaries of Illyria, and were in fact inferior to her at the time, if she is to be believed to be objective on that subject.

I tend to think of them as being Old Ones, really, but Old Ones that, rather than be destroyed or consign themselves to the Deeper Well, chose to step out of this dimension and operate at a distance.

[Enisy]

Well, there's this bit from Reprise...

Holland Manners: We go on, no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first caveman clubbed his neighbour. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And that, friend, is what's making things so difficult for you. See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. It works with us. It works because of us.

But yeah, logic dictates that the First is the first.

[KingofCretins]

Two things that I think of reading that Holland quote, really. First, is that W&H are kind of like how Giles describes the Bringers* bravado about themselves... they're rebels, and they'll never ever be any good. It's not rare or even uncommon for demons, particularly substantial ones, to talk themselves up. From Spike up to Illyria.

Second, though, Holland's little treatise on working with evil and always having been there can be read to only reinforce the First's status -- it is a "hearts and minds" kind of thing. When Holland talks about all the people Angel sees in "Reprise", it *is* the First he's talking about, insofar as the Buffyverse goes. Wolfram & Hart hasn't *literally* been there forever, but they aren't kidding about what fuels them and how they operate.

*The fact that Giles says this about the Bringers may seem to undercut the First's own claims, but since he later reaffirms everything the First says about itself, I'm not holding it against him.

[ThePoet's<3]

I associate both the First and W&H with Evil. But W&H are who carry it out. It has been here from the beginning. It exists in the hearts and minds of people. It will go on long after anything exists. As long as man exists Evil will conintue.

[Kiera]

Stupid question, but is it possible that The First and Wolfram & Hart were kind of in the same league?

[NileQT87]

remember when mesektet (the little girl in the white room) tells how they hate chaos and have a habit of banishing things that cause it? then there is also the svear priestesses who specialized in banishing. then you had the pure demons who killed themselves off, left the dimension or were banished from it.

my thinking is that the first was the first pure demon, but it got banished and made like sahjhan. the first's ultimate plan seemed to involve the desire to crush and destroy with its own claws, which is why you have the whole thing where caleb is talking about things he's done with his own hands. that was sahjhan's whole thing--wanting to be unbanished so it can crunch, kill and not go through anything anymore.

wolfram & hart were lesser pure demons in the age of illyria, most likely. mesektet and her puddy cat are definitely in league with w&h. mesektet seems very big on banishing chaos and w&h is definitely not a big fan of either illyria or jasmine. i doubt they are a big fan of the first evil if the first was a head honcho back in the day who ended up impotent like sahjhan. it might add to the little help for up sunnydale way.

my theory is still that lindsey and eve were in cahoots with each other to bring spike in for angel to doubt himself, but w&h would have probably also liked the idea of stopping the first evil if it is a rival chaotic pure demon like they are. it's protecting turf for them when they stated quite clearly their distaste for sahjhan, illyria and jasmine. w&h is all about pushing humanity to its own destruction (which brings me back to buffy's very beginnings--"so the old ones can return"). w&h wants humanity to kill themselves off because humanity is ultimately the thing keeping them out.

and this brings us to the humanity (twilight) vs. demons and magic arc that leads into fray. wolfram & hart seems to be a player in trying to fight twilight or the idea of humanity succeeding. which, oddly enough, places buffy and angel both on w&h's side.

angel would choose humanity over demons, yet many of the beings he fights for are threatened by twilight (they're just as bad as the scourge, but on the other side). for him, they'd both be evil. buffy, herself, is also considered part of the magic world by twilight, even though she thinks she represents humanity. however, w&h loves humanity being left to its own devices! w&h's very existence would be threatened by twilight, so they aren't going to shut up without a fight in a fray-scenario, even if they are on the other show--joss needs to introduce w&h into btvs quick. perhaps a bigger plan of making angel work for them--ultimately, they may be on the same side, but with different goals. sort of a wwII stalin with the allies scenario vs. hitler and the axis.

[kana]

wolfram & hart were lesser pure demons in the age of illyria, most likely. mesektet and her puddy cat are definitely in league with w&h. mesektet seems very big on banishing chaos and w&h is definitely not a big fan of either illyria or jasmine. i doubt they are a big fan of the first evil if the first was a head honcho back in the day who ended up impotent like sahjhan. it might add to the little help for up sunnydale way.

Well yes, I mean, W&H are very much about things happening on their time table. Whatever the nature of the First, their end of the world wasn't on W&H schedule.

my theory is still that lindsey and eve were in cahoots with each other to bring spike in to doubt himself, but w&h would have probably also liked the idea of stopping the first evil if it is a rival chaotic pure demon like they are.

As a side point, although the SPs aren't all knowing (presumbably) they may have known Spike was going to wear the amulet so their vamp with a soul was intact and they were happy to let Spike remain dust but as you say Lindsay had other plans...

it's protecting turf for them when they stated quite clearly their distaste for sahjhan, illyria and jasmine. w&h is all about pushing humanity to its own destruction (which brings me back to buffy's very beginnings--"so the old ones can return"). w&h wants humanity to kill themselves off because humanity is ultimately the thing keeping them out.

But it's also what gives them power. As long human exist, they are still in control and as you say if they kill themselves off, they still win.

and this brings us to the humanity (twilight) vs. demons and magic arc that leads into fray. wolfram & hart seems to be a player in trying to fight twilight or the idea of humanity succeeding. which, oddly enough, places buffy and angel both on w&h's side.

OOh, I don't know enough about this but it's rarely that simple. The enemy of my enemy thing seldom works that well in the Verse.

angel would choose humanity over demons, yet many of the beings he fights for are threatened by twilight (they're just as bad as the scourge, but on the other side). for him, they'd both be evil. buffy, herself, is also considered part of the magic world by twilight, even though she thinks she represents humanity. however, w&h loves humanity being left to its own devices! w&h's very existence would be threatened by twilight, so they aren't going to shut up without a fight in a fray-scenario, even if they are on the other show--joss needs to introduce w&h into btvs quick. perhaps a bigger plan of making angel work for them--ultimately, they may be on the same side, but with different goals. sort of a wwII stalin with the allies scenario vs. hitler and the axis.

But essentially different goals would equate to different sides, even different means. The knights of Byzantium had the same goal as Buffy but their means meant they were enemies.

[KingofCretins]

remember when mesektet (the little girl in the white room) tells how they hate chaos and have a habit of banishing things that cause it? then there is also the svear priestesses who specialized in banishing. then you had the pure demons who killed themselves off, left the dimension or were banished from it.

my thinking is that the first was the first pure demon, but it got banished and made like sahjhan. the first's ultimate plan seemed to involve the desire to crush and destroy with its own claws, which is why you have the whole thing where caleb is talking about things he's done with his own hands. that was sahjhan's whole thing--wanting to be unbanished so it can crunch, kill and not go through anything anymore.

Forgive me for being a big, big nerd, but there's an element of this that's like the alignments from D&D. Wolfram & Hart are Lawful Evil. The First is Chaotic Evil.

This interpretation even lends itself to explain why W&H would thwart the First, by providing the amulet, despite ostensibly being beholden to the First -- RPG campaigns and fantasy fiction and comics and sci-fi commonly tells stories of *all* lawful alignments cooperating to oppose a CE threat, because CE is the worst-worst.

OOh, I don't know enough about this but it's rarely that simple. The enemy of my enemy thing seldom works that well in the Verse.

But, again, we already have seen it -- "Home"/"Chosen". Wolfram & Hart provided the missing piece of the puzzle to stopping the First. They didn't have to. But they preferred their own highly ordered agenda to conceding to the First.

As for how this all might manifest in Season 8,

Spoiler:

I agree that we could see nominally good and evil forces in the supernatural world of the Buffyverse cooperating. This is even teased in Giles' meeting with the demons where he says that they have their own fight, but are not going to be pushed into it. I'm not sure if Joss will bring W&H in by name, but it's implicit. I do think that we will see Amy and Warren forced to side up with Buffy, which should be... awkward.

[kana]

Forgive me for being a big, big nerd, but there's an element of this that's like the alignments from D&D. Wolfram & Hart are Lawful Evil. The First is Chaotic Evil



This interpretation even lends itself to explain why W&H would thwart the First, by providing the amulet, despite ostensibly being beholden to the First -- RPG campaigns and fantasy fiction and comics and sci-fi commonly tells stories of *all* lawful alignments cooperating to oppose a CE threat, because CE is the worst-worst.

I always got confused because I thought that the FE and W&H are more closely related but jealous coveting (or actually obtaining power). W&H's elements of destruction is merely happening on a later date. Both seek destruction, and both lust after power, influence and corruption. The FE's methods are actually similar to W&Hs traditionally. The methodical destruction of mankind.

But, again, we already have seen it -- "Home"/"Chosen". Wolfram & Hart provided the missing piece of the puzzle to stopping the First. They didn't have to. But they preferred their own highly ordered agenda to conceding to the First.

What I actually meant is that just because they commited to an action that was beneficial to Buffy and co, it doesn't mean they are on the same kind. I covered this in the different goals/means part.

As for how this all might manifest in Season 8,

Spoiler:

I agree that we could see nominally good and evil forces in the supernatural world of the Buffyverse cooperating. This is even teased in Giles' meeting with the demons where he says that they have their own fight, but are not going to be pushed into it. I'm not sure if Joss will bring W&H in by name, but it's implicit. I do think that we will see Amy and Warren forced to side up with Buffy, which should be... awkward.

[/QUOTE]

[MissKittyFANtastico]

Ok, I've got a &quot;The First&quot; question!?!

1.The first evil is the first evil in all the dimensions ever, right?
2.Illyria, in "Shells", talks about all the magnificent worlds and dimensions she's been to.

So why does the first waste it's time on Earth? It could have gone to one of the brilliant worlds that Illyria spoke of or to the world with only shrimp, which have been considerably easier to take over, or why not go for the wishverse where Buffy's dead and lesser evil already rules?

Don't get me wrong I respect The First as a villian, though I didn't like him..her...um..it very much.

It'd be great if someone has a plausable explanation for the above, thanks.

[Vampire in Rug]

Well, the First can exist in several places at once, so it probably does exist in several other dimensions. Also, I'm guessing that Earth is pretty important in the grand scheme of things, hence why Wolfram and Hart place thier home office on Earth.

And as far as the Wishverse goes, I don't see it as a different dimension, but rather an alternate timeline that doesn't actually exist anymore. It would be impossible for anyone to travel to the Wishverse in the same way that you could to Pylea or Quor-Toth.