Another lame poll: Chosen vs Not Fade Away

[Nina]

Another day, another lame poll.

Which last episode was the best? And with the best I mean, the best end for the series and the quality of the episode. So, Chosen or Not Fade Away.

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I'll go for NFA.

NFA had closure for every character, Angel who finally find some peace in the fact that he is a vampire. Wesley who is feared by big demons and he lets his facination with reality go, so he can die in the arms of the woman he loves so much. Connor who is okay with the fact that Angel is his father. Spike who gets respect for his poems. Gunn who helps Anne and finds peace with the fact that he isn't the thinker but really helpful anyway. And Lorne who sings one last time and respects his innerself and leaves because he isn't a fighter. Besides every character is important in the episode, everybody is needed. And all the characters are showing their best.

The message in this episode is a great one. The fight never stops, and it doesn't matter who you were or are, as long as you fight. Their stand in NFA is the biggest victory there is.

The bad guys are another great point, the circle of the Black Thorn are great demons, dangerous and smart but not unbeatable. So there weren't plotholes as big as Europe needed to explain the fact that every single one of them is beaten.

Wesley's death, Ats was never scared to let the most important people die. Wesley was, after Angel, the most important character and they let him die. And his last scene is one of the most beautiful scenes in the 'verse.
And the headsmashing Illyria gets many points. That was cool.

But the greatest moment in de episode was the moment Angel gave up the Shansu. I think that giving up the one thing he wanted so badly, the only way out of his awful existence ... is the biggest sacrifice a character ever made. Also, I like the scene where he talks with Harmony about being human.

I didn't like the fact that Angel acted like a jerk and went back to the season 2 version of Angel. He lost his real purpose and didn't think about the consequences ... at least .. not well enough.
Another thing I didn't like was the fact that they made a joke out of Harmony. She should be dust. And the way how Angel killed Archduke Sebassis ... it was smart and there wasn't enough time for a better fight ... but it felt cheap to me. Sebassis was the boss of the circle (or something like that) ...

Chosen;

I loved the music, it sounded al little like the soundtrack of LOTR, just as the fight which was a rip-off/tribute for LOTR. I loved it, the special effects were great.

I loved the scythe (but actually, it's an axe), I hated the fact that it was a deus ex machina, but it looked very pretty.

The death of Anya, it was her time. She had no purpose anymore and her story was done. It was a good way to go for her.

And I loved that Dawn kicked Buffy because Buffy tried to get Dawn (and Xander) out of Sunnydale.

The episode looked very smooth and great. Like I already said, the special effects and the music were great. It looked impressive but if you dig deeper, it's built on nothing. To resolve the problems they had two deus ex machina's (The scythe and the amulet), there were so many plotholes it's embarrassing and the way how the writers wrote the characters felt cheap because in season 7 the scoobies weren't the friends anymore they once were but in Chosen they acted like the last 2 seasons never happened.
And the empowerment spell wasn't done well. The fact that the same spell was called rape earlier in the season made the spell not the great thing it should be.
And I think that Buffy should be the one who saved the world. Not Spike with the amulet who was given by W&H.

I love BtVS and I think that the second season is still the greatest season on tv ever. And maybe I expected too much, but I have readed so many great idea's and fanfics ... maybe I'm harsh. But after NFA I was so proud at the complete A-team and after Chosen I didn't care at all about the scoobies (except Xander, my Xander love never left). The way how Angel went into war made me exciting, the way how Buffy ended ... not so much. And Angel's 'Well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon. Let's go to work.' was a greater goodbye as the smile of Buffy.

but all IMO like usual.

[Nostalgia]

Great poll..


Chosen is a good episode. There were moments where I felt that Joss had written some of his best work (the circle scene, D&D, etc.). However, there was just something about it that didn't scream "amazing." It was solid, but on the same scale with Not Fade Away, I don't think we can compare.

Not Fade Away was just an unbelievable episode from start to finish. It captured the darkness of the show completely, and really gives the idea that Angel was about the entire series, being alone. While he was left with Illyria, Spike, and a dying Gunn, Angel really lost almost his entire cast.


If we look at the regulars who have been with him the season, we've seen Cordy die, Fred die, Wes die, and eventually Gunn would be dying. That is very bold for a television show, and I absolutely loved how Joss had no fear in terms of his writing affecting the audience. We had to take it as it was, and I loved it. The ending was a perfect scenario for the show as well, showing that Angel was never really about happy endings and moving on. It's about fighting for your redemption, and continuing that fight until you reach your destiny someday.

Unlike Chosen, Not Fade Away had a lot of sad, heart-wrenching moments. While I felt with Chosen, it was a big special-effects, in-your-face show. I did indeed like the episode, but I wish there could have been just a tad bit more character interaction. I mean, the battle lasted half the episode.. That's a bit much for the final one.

Overall, it comes down to a very good episode vs a phenomenal episode. In the end, I see it that Not Fade Away was more powerful.

[ThePoet's<3]

I like NFA over Chosen - because Spike is still ALIVE!!! And ready to kick-A!

I liked that it ended with a "unfinished" feeling. It always gave me hope that the fight did go on - which now we see it did!

[patxshand]

I have no idea how any individual in full possession of their marbles could ever choose "Chosen" over "Not Fade Away." The latter is a flawless episode from start to finish.

[vampmogs]

Wouldn't say flawless... to loosely quote Jeffery Bell from that episodes commentary.. did you see Spike's stupid cloak?

I can't actually decide which one I like better so chose that option on the poll. Both have different things I like about them, different factors influencing my decision. As for example, whilst NFA didn't have as many (if any) plot holes, we had at least been building to 'Chosen' whereas (understandably given the cancellation) the Circle of the Blackthorn seemed pretty rushed and out of nowhere. I also have been always a little bit more invested in the Scooby gang then the fang gang, not by a lot but I was always more emotionally connected to them so it made the final more moving for me. Then on the other hand 'Not Fade Away' gave us more time for some vital character moments whereas characters like Xander and Dawn were neglected on 'Chosen.'

[Tigger96]

Like vampmogs I can't really choose one or the other.

Chosen: This was a good ep w/ a good message. I believe it fully summed up what the show was all about -- Girl Power. And, honestly, I love the close on Buffy's smile -- promising to think of all the possiblities that are opening up for her. The music was awesome. And I especially love the little scene between Buffy & The First, where the First is taunting B. I like how Buffy shares her power and 'spreads the love.' And how Willow comes full circle and finds the way to take all the magick in her and use it for good.

However, I agree with SMG and others that it should have been a two hour ep to fully bring things to a close, but hey, it's being continued in comics. I fully believe that Xander and Dawn should have had more coverage. This ep really left me wanting more.

NFA: This ep had so many tear-jerker moments for me. I really appreciated how the story was brought to a close on a fight -- the reason for Angel's being. I appreciate the sacrifices that were made to make this such an exceptional story. I love how Illyria finds emotion after Wesley's death -- "I feel like killing things." And how Gunn, dying, is still going to give it all he's got. It's been awhile since I've seen the ep, but I remember feeling very satisfied by the end of the ep, even with the possiblity of not knowing how the final battle eventually turned out.

[buffyholic]

I voted for Chosen because I only saw NDA once. NDA is a wonderful episode too but Chosen is just too amazing. This was how I really wanted the series to end and it?s a beautiful ending. Buffy finally free of her burden, finally free to live a normal life.

[Jaseon]

There's a reason why NFA is generally voted the best if not one of the best episodes of Angel throughout the entire series.

Chosen on the other hand....

[kana]

Hmm, well I'm biased in favour of Angel so I guess it will be NFA.

The main problem I had with Chosen is that it came at the end of Season 7 with which I had numorous issues. Spike's death lacked pathos because I knew he would return, and don't get me started on the whole multiple Slayer thing...

NFA's messages in between the messages were actually just as beautiful as the ambiguous ending. I really loved the Anne and Gunn scene, it was telling about Angel's mission and how the difference he's made in people wont be negated by his present and subsequent mistakes.

Chosen did of course deal with Buffy's superiority/inferiority complex (maybe) but we are made to feel as if we should care about the potentials. It makes the message almost too academic apart from how it pertains to Buffy and Faith. Aside from Willow's witchood, we find that the core four are either ignored or in arms when the issues of fracture still remain....

Spoiler:

....(which I suppose is being dealt with, thank goodness

But meh, I suppose it comes down to my bias lol.

[Phoenix]

I voted for Chosen, as I like the whole episode more than NFA. But I did like the ending of NFA more than Chosen. But I voted for Chosen, and probably also because ive only seen NFA once.. I need the dvds so badly

[Kiera]

Maybe it's just because I haven't seen Not Fade Away in a while, but Chosen seemed to have more going on in it than what I remember in NFA. Although I did like how Chosen seemed a little more or less final than Not Fade Away; that one made it seem like that was it for Angel and the gang and we never find out when or if Angel shanshues (with the exception the comics, I'm sure :P). I liked how in Buffy everything seemed bright and cheery; accomplished.

[Elsa]

I really hate to say this since I'm more of a Buffy fan than an Angel fan - but NFA gets my vote here. Partially because I am still bitter about Anya's death, yes. But there is another reason and that is NFA had, for me, more twists and surprises.

Honestly, I never completely saw what happened to Wesley coming. After all it's not like they killed Giles (for which I'm mostly thankful - "mostly" due to some favorite fanfics). And Lindsay - I don't care he was a hardcore villain, I don't care he was posing as Doyle (okay, I do) but I still liked him and never felt that should happen to him. At least not by Lorne's hand.

Also I do like the ambiguious ending. I like how I see it continuing to play out in my mind and given that there's no true canon ending on screen - who's to say I'm wrong. I love when shows leave it open for debate like that - especially since in a way it gives everyone what they want by letting the viewer make up their own mind as to how it ended

[buffyholic]

I agree that NFA does a great job but really, Chosen feels like an epic. Just that last shot of Buffy smiling does it for me. And of course, Buffy or Angel never truly ends because I?m always rewatching the seasons.

[skinless]

I Believe That NFA had more going for it. I do believe that the Ending of NFA was alot better than Chosen But they were two different shows so the last Episode of both had to be different and they're both good in theyre own way. But Wesley Death was more impactful for me than Anya's death and the Fact that Angel signs away the Shanshu just makes the Episode a whole lot better and More interesting

[Yoyo]

I voted for NFA. IMO, Chosen seemed too rushed.

[Paradise]

This is so strange to me because I love Chosen SO much. It has all my favorite people, such a beautiful storyline, so well done out, and it just...rocks. Not Fade Away wasn't that great to me. I liked it, I mean how can you not like Angel and BTVS, but it was to me so not even in the same league as the least season of Buffy. So I'm kinda stunned by this poll. I've watched Season 7 of Buffy SO much more than the last season of Angel. There's no Cordelia or Faith for Angel, and no Buffy for Spike in S5 of Angel. Come on!

[Nina]

Just a question ...

There's no Cordelia or Faith for Angel, and no Buffy for Spike in S5 of Angel. Come on!

You think that a season is only a good season when there is Spuffy/Cangel/Faith & Angel in it?

I think that Cordelia was there for Angel in season 5, in that one episode she changed everything. She gave Angel what he needed and after that she died. And I don't get why BtVS characters are needed to make an Ats season a good one.

[Paradise]

Just a question ...



You think that a season is only a good season when there is Spuffy/Cangel/Faith & Angel in it?

I think that Cordelia was there for Angel in season 5, in that one episode she changed everything. She gave Angel what he needed and after that she died. And I don't get why BtVS characters are needed to make an Ats season a good one.

Funny, Angel IS a BTVS character, so what's wrong with him seeing a BTVS character? And BTW, I consider Faith and Cordelia pretty much equally ATS characters as much as BTVS characters. Both of these women in different ways to me, made Angel better. A lot of people were glad Angel ended when they fired Charisma. And Buffy without Spike? Yeah to me, not going to work. I loved pretty much all of the Buffy seasons, but almost all of them had some form of Spuffy. So yeah. Sarah and James had a great chemistry. But Buffy did have some other things going. However, the finale did need to have Spuffy, and thankfully it did. The Angel Finale...had no Cangle, Fangle, or Spuffy, so yeah, I was a little disappointed.

[Phaedra]

I don't think I can choose one over the other. They were both fantastic in their own ways. To me, the two shows are completely separate and they both had a very different feel to them.

There were many times during the series' where I liked Angel more than BTVS, but there were also times that I felt BTVS really took the cake.

When it comes to the series finales, I'll have to stick by not picking one. I thought that NFA did a great job bringing everything full circle, and it left me screaming and wanting more. Chosen felt complete, like everything was wrapped up and I felt happy knowing that Buffy could live her life.

They're just so different. I can't pick!

(I shouldn't post at 2:09am. I don't make sense.)

[Nina]

Funny, Angel IS a BTVS character, so what's wrong with him seeing a BTVS character? And BTW, I consider Faith and Cordelia pretty much equally ATS characters as much as BTVS characters. Both of these women in different ways to me, made Angel better. A lot of people were glad Angel ended when they fired Charisma. And Buffy without Spike? Yeah to me, not going to work. I loved pretty much all of the Buffy seasons, but almost all of them had some form of Spuffy. So yeah. Sarah and James had a great chemistry. But Buffy did have some other things going. However, the finale did need to have Spuffy, and thankfully it did. The Angel Finale...had no Cangle, Fangle, or Spuffy, so yeah, I was a little disappointed.

Angel started in BtVS, but he became an Ats character because he is the main character in the series. Buffy and Faith were both never part of the cast. Faith had what? 7 episodes? and Buffy had 2 episodes in Ats, to say that those two are needed in the Ats Final to make it a good one doesn't sound right to me. It would take time away from Ats characters like Wesley and Gunn. Cordelia was part of Ats, but died. She had her great goodbye and it would be cheapen her death if she would return for the final.
And Ats was never about relations like BtVS was, and to spend time in NFA, on a relationship from another show between a new (and not the most important) Ats character and a character we saw two times on Ats ... if Buffy would be there ... she would be there for Angel because it's Angel the series and not Spike the series.

I understand that you wanted to see it, it are clearly your ships. But to call NFA a bad episode because of that ... I can't understand. I'm a Bangel shipper and I love Cordelia and Angel as friends, but to be honest, it would destroy the story and the final if they made a story around those two relations.