Anti-CANGEL Club

[THE BLUE]

Did Cangel seemed forced to you, was it too much have "deja-vu" fact in it, should they have stayed friends, did you see them as a brother and a sister? This is the place for you. And only for you. No Cangels are allowed. In order to hinder any uneasiness.

[galathea]

Hey there! Sorry, but you can't exclude anybody from a discussion thread here on BuffyForums. Anybody is allowed to voice his/her opinion in any thread as long as it is expressed politely and and in a sensible fashion. If Cangels want to debate the development of Angels and Cordelias relationship with people who have arguments on why they shouldn't be together in this thread, it is just as open to them as Cangel threads are for Bangels.

[THE BLUE]

I am trying to hinder uneasiness here.

[galathea]

I don't see why there should be any uneasiness in the friendly exchange of arguments. The relationship between Angel and Cordy is open to any discussion, just like anything else.

[THE BLUE]

Well, the majority of fanbase is Cangel, and I don't think given the amount of Cangels, Anti-Cangels will step in.

[galathea]

Uhm actually the majority of the fanbase is Bangels and Spuffys and Cangels are in a small minority. As I said over at BW, if you voice an opinion on a discussion board you have to expect people taking an affirmative or negative stance towards that opinion because that's what discussion boards are about. If someone is an Anti-Cangel then he/she will be able to provide good arguments for their position and should be able to defend that position against any Cangel lover. There is no reason for uneasiness or excluding people from partaking in a debate.

[KingofCretins]

I am pretty indifferent to Cordy/Angel, although I do think it's a more sophisticated relationship than Buffy/Angel by quite a ways. It didn't feel forced to me, it felt very organic.

[galathea]

Actually I think C/A was the most realistic, heart-warming and naturally progressed relationship in the whole Whedonverse. More often than not love isn't all about falling for each other on first sight and instant attraction but about steady and slow development. The progress from loose acquaintances, to co-workers, to friends and finally lovers was beautifully done.

Their relationship was about change and growth with each other and finding in that process that what used to separate them from each other became the thing that complements them. Like Angels broodiness brought out Cordelia's caring traits and Cordy's bubbling and sunny personality nudged Angel's human and dorky side to the surface. Angel and Cordelia high-lightened each other's positive character traits, they were both better people because of the influence of the other and I love that about them.

I have no idea how anybody can categorize them as brother and sister. Cordy's initial statement when she sees Angel for the first time refers to her being attracted to him. In 'City Of..' Angel calls Cordy a 'hottie' and the way he checks her out in that flimsy bathing suit in 'Belonging' is everything but brotherly.

Some people seem to think that just because there was no open sexual tension between them, they weren't physically attracted to each other. But you have to look into the nature of their relationship to understand its expression. It was based on friendship, trust, loyalty and closeness. They lived under the threat of the curse, denying that they had deeper feelings for each other, hence outward and open sexual tension wouldn't have fit with this couple. But that doesn't mean, that it wasn't there. You just have to look for it in the small gestures and gazes, it's subtle and more hidden, because physical attraction isn't only about aggressive sexual tension, it's also about intimacy and tenderness and Cordy and Angel had that in spades.

So no, their relationship didn't feel forced or unnatural to me, but rich, deep, layered and as KingOfCretins stated so well, organic!

[KingofCretins]

There was mutual sexual attraction, just no flirtation. I'm almost certain there are Angel Season 1 moments where I would say he was checking her out, and she had called him "Salty Goodness" a few years earlier.

I think their strongest romantic roots were in Season 2 -- Buffy and Darla both had this tendency to deal with Angel by getting A) plaintive or B) violent. Cordy just told him off. In "Darla" when he says that he wants to make sure Darla doesn't go through the guilt thing alone, Cordy just gives him "You're not alone" and then locks his eyes. She never blinks around Angel.

[EndersWrath]

Actually I think C/A was the most realistic, heart-warming and naturally progressed relationship in the whole Whedonverse. More often than not love isn't all about falling for each other on first sight and instant attraction but about steady and slow development. The progress from loose acquaintances, to co-workers, to friends and finally lovers was beautifully done.

Have to whole heartedly agree here. I love how it wasn't just *BAM* they are in love, it took a looong while for them to both figure out that they actually did love each other. Actually I think that is why I preferred Ats relationships over BtVS ones, they took time and wasn't really ever a 'Hey, I think I love you' type situation, and I believe Cangel is the perfect example of that.

I never felt a 'deja vu' effect with it, it was to me one of the most original ones of the two shows.

Their relationship was about change and growth with each other and finding in that process that what used to separate them from each other became the thing that complements them. Like Angels broodiness brought out Cordelia's caring traits and Cordy's bubbling and sunny personality nudged Angel's human and dorky side to the surface. Angel and Cordelia high-lightened each other's positive character traits, they were both better people because of the influence of the other and I love that about them.

I love how well they brought out the best in each other, that they played off each others dominant attributes and made each other better people. I think that is why I loved Cangel way more than Bangel, Buffy could brood while Cordy never did.

I have no idea how anybody can categorize them as brother and sister. Cordy's initial statement when she sees Angel for the first time refers to her being attracted to him. In 'City Of..' Angel calls Cordy a 'hottie' and the way he checks her out in that flimsy bathing suit in 'Belonging' is everything but brotherly.

I have never heard that and am shocked that anyone could think that...just wow. Well if you love Wincest then that could be brotherly

Some people seem to think that just because there was no open sexual tension between them, they weren't physically attracted to each other. But you have to look into the nature of their relationship to understand its expression. It was based on friendship, trust, loyalty and closeness. They lived under the threat of the curse, denying that they had deeper feelings for each other, hence outward and open sexual tension wouldn't have fit with this couple. But that doesn't mean, that it wasn't there. You just have to look for it in the small gestures and gazes, it's subtle and more hidden, because physical attraction isn't only about aggressive sexual tension, it's also about intimacy and tenderness and Cordy and Angel had that in spades.

So no, their relationship didn't feel forced or unnatural to me, but rich, deep, layered and as KingOfCretins stated so well, organic!

I think that Cordy lived her sexual tension of Angel through Groo, I mean she basically turned him into Angel and even got something to block the 'curse' of her losing her visions. I am personally glad that they didn't have that agressive sexual tension, it just worked so much better without it. Otherwise wouldn't it feel too much like Bangel and give it that "deja-vu" feeling?

[sherrilina]

Actually I think C/A was the most realistic, heart-warming and naturally progressed relationship in the whole Whedonverse. More often than not love isn't all about falling for each other on first sight and instant attraction but about steady and slow development. The progress from loose acquaintances, to co-workers, to friends and finally lovers was beautifully done.

Their relationship was about change and growth with each other and finding in that process that what used to separate them from each other became the thing that complements them. Like Angels broodiness brought out Cordelia's caring traits and Cordy's bubbling and sunny personality nudged Angel's human and dorky side to the surface. Angel and Cordelia high-lightened each other's positive character traits, they were both better people because of the influence of the other and I love that about them.

I have no idea how anybody can categorize them as brother and sister. Cordy's initial statement when she sees Angel for the first time refers to her being attracted to him. In 'City Of..' Angel calls Cordy a 'hottie' and the way he checks her out in that flimsy bathing suit in 'Belonging' is everything but brotherly.

Some people seem to think that just because there was no open sexual tension between them, they weren't physically attracted to each other. But you have to look into the nature of their relationship to understand its expression. It was based on friendship, trust, loyalty and closeness. They lived under the threat of the curse, denying that they had deeper feelings for each other, hence outward and open sexual tension wouldn't have fit with this couple. But that doesn't mean, that it wasn't there. You just have to look for it in the small gestures and gazes, it's subtle and more hidden, because physical attraction isn't only about aggressive sexual tension, it's also about intimacy and tenderness and Cordy and Angel had that in spades.

So no, their relationship didn't feel forced or unnatural to me, but rich, deep, layered and as KingOfCretins stated so well, organic!

EXCELLENT post! And so very true--there was nothing "deja vu" about Cangel, unless you think that any relationship that Angel has as a vampire with a human is deja vu--and in that case, if Angel was only allowed to love Buffy and could never have his own love interest on his own show, it would be so boring....love interests are a major part of what makes a show tick, and you can have a whole show with no love interest present on the show for the lead character. And the relationship itself was nothing like Bangel--Bangel was much more fairy-tale like or epic, while Cangel is more realistic and down-to-earth. Bangel is more dramatic and angsty and over-emotional, with much more fighting and all-around drama-rama, while Cangel was more understated and subtle, more peaceful and content. And Cordy and Buffy have much different effects on Angel. Buffy mostly keeps Angel for herself, and is ok with him being in the shadows waiting for her and her alone (so jealously does she guard him that he's hardly able to talk to another woman without Buffy having a fit), encouraging him to brood and not encouraging him to hang out with her and her friends more. With Cordy it's the opposite--Cordy doesn't put up with Angel's brooding, she forces him to confront his feelings, draws him out into the human world, brings out a more human side of him, helps him feel more connected with the world rather than letting him continue to feel isolated from it (outside of his contact with Buffy). Also, for the most part Cordy is much more accepting of Angel's vampiric nature than Buffy is, I think. Though Cordy sometimes teases Angel about beign a vamp, she openly gives him blood in her kitchen glasses (even trying to prepare it in a new and special way), and when she brings it up is usually matter-of-fact--unlike Buffy, who, as Angel notes "always brings up the vampire thing every time we argue". On this note, Buffy is also always wishing for a normal life with Angel, that he could be a normal boyfriend and she a normal girl--her conversation with Angel at the beginning of The Prom is almost painful to watch. Cordy on the other hand, just accepts Angel as a vampire and makes the best of it--she doesn't try to pretend he's soemthing he's not.

I don't mean to completely dump on Bangel--I do love it in seasons 1-3 of Buffy. But I'm just pointing out that Cangel is a completely different relationship than Bangel, and is not "deja vu" in the slightest!

[Salvation]

I didnt like Cangel at all seeing them together i dont know ,it's kinda weird to me ,i like it more when they more FRIENDS than LOVERS.

[THE BLUE]

Uhm actually the majority of the fanbase is Bangels and Spuffys and Cangels are in a small minority. As I said over at BW, if you voice an opinion on a discussion board you have to expect people taking an affirmative or negative stance towards that opinion because that's what discussion boards are about. If someone is an Anti-Cangel then he/she will be able to provide good arguments for their position and should be able to defend that position against any Cangel lover. There is no reason for uneasiness or excluding people from partaking in a debate.

You can't go Spuffy and Bangel boards to smash it, so it is only natural if you are cangel, not to step in anti-cangel thread, do you want me to go on Spuffy and Cangel shippers union threads and write long posts about how they stink? Because that's you and your friends do in ANTI-Cangel Thread, saying how natural and well-crafted relation it is, you don't respect anyone but yourself. You know what, open a Cangel thread and prepare for welcoming Cangel haters and then come and write long posts about respecting other people's opinions and people taking an affirmative or negative stances, especially negative stances.

[Francy]

You can't go Spuffy and Bangel boards to smash it, so it is only natural if you are cangel, not to step in anti-cangel thread, do you want me to go on Spuffy and Cangel shippers union threads and write long posts about how they stink? Because that's you and your friends do in ANTI-Cangel Thread, saying how natural and well-crafted relation it is, you don't respect anyone but yourself. You know what, open a Cangel thread and prepare for welcoming Cangel haters and then come and write long posts about respecting other people's opinions and people taking an affirmative or negative stances, especially negative stances.

Hey, calm down. Since BW existed, and now on Buffy Forums, EVERY thread, even the anti-something threads, are open to discussion to everyone. Maybe YOU weren't paying attention, because it has always been that way, and unless Nikki says that the rules have changed, everyone is entitled to partecipate in any thread they want, as long as they do it politely and respecting the rules. If you can't hold your ground on a debate, or you don't want to, either you stop posting, or you accept that also other people with different opinions are entitled to voice their opinion. I am a Spuffy and I have always debated in the Bangel thread...if you have something to say, you can go in the Spuffy thread, and debate with the Spuffies, or in the Cangel thread, and challenge the Cangels. Either way, it's not up to you to tell someone to stop posting in a thread.

[sherrilina]

You can't go Spuffy and Bangel boards to smash it, so it is only natural if you are cangel, not to step in anti-cangel thread, do you want me to go on Spuffy and Cangel shippers union threads and write long posts about how they stink? Because that's you and your friends do in ANTI-Cangel Thread, saying how natural and well-crafted relation it is, you don't respect anyone but yourself. You know what, open a Cangel thread and prepare for welcoming Cangel haters and then come and write long posts about respecting other people's opinions and people taking an affirmative or negative stances, especially negative stances.

Yes you can go to Bangel and Spuffy boards and express negative opinions, as long as they are well-reasoned or are reasons, and not "Bangel sucks balls!" or "Spike is gross, I hate Spuffy!" Also as long as you don't insult the shippers themselves, and politely debate, it IS respectful of others to post negative, yet debate-provoking posts in an oppositional thread. That's the key thing--to provoke debate (this IS a forum), not just bash mindlessly if you're posting in an "enemy" thread--though it's generally a good idea to do that even in shipping threads of your own opinion.

So yes, you'll notice that I have opened a pro-Cangel thread, which you are free to come into and debate Cangel in--you could respond to what I say in my first post for example, say why you disagree with those points. And you would not find me coming in here and retaliating, talking about respecting other's opinons--it's perfectly respectful to disagree, as long as you're respectful in doing so!

[galathea]

You can't go Spuffy and Bangel boards to smash it, so it is only natural if you are cangel, not to step in anti-cangel thread, do you want me to go on Spuffy and Cangel shippers union threads and write long posts about how they stink? Because that's you and your friends do in ANTI-Cangel Thread, saying how natural and well-crafted relation it is, you don't respect anyone but yourself. You know what, open a Cangel thread and prepare for welcoming Cangel haters and then come and write long posts about respecting other people's opinions and people taking an affirmative or negative stances, especially negative stances.

From the Rules for the shipper section of this board:

Please note that just because a club is pro a ship that doesn't mean that members who don't feel the same way can't post in that thread. They probably won't be joining the club, but a healthy debate can only take place when there are people on both sides. And since this is a discussion forum I'm encouraging it Just remember.. no insulting!

I have no desire to smash Bangels or Spuffies and I have every respect for their opinions and feelings and had long and satisfying debates with other shippers. I am never anything but polite and simply argue my case. You present opinions and statements and I am allowed and inclined to argue about them.

This is a discussion board, if you don't want to discuss your Anti-Cangel position then you are free to go to a specific shipper board. We already have a pro Cangel thread and you are very welcomed there to voice your opinion and arguments against it. Going around and insulting everybody who is just politely stating their opinion that differs from yours won't help your case though.

[bishopcruz]

Well, gonna play devils avocate here since there seems to be more pro-cangel activity in this threa than anti. Let's get the Anti-cangel people stating what they don't like about it, and why, to get the club going.

[Salvation]

I dont like anything about them ,why bcuz it's seems like brother & siser engagging in love realtionship beyond their brother/sister love.Their relationship to me wsnt based on real love than the fact they were alone & needed someone to spend the time with nothing more.

To me i didnt see any kind of fire works in their so called "LOVE REALTIONSHIP'' it turned from friendship to convenet one.I even saw more passion n Codry's relationship with Xander than her's with Angel.

[Nostalgia]

Definetly forced.. definetly useless.

Please add me to this shipper.

[Salvation]

so forced ADD ME too.