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  • Canon, the two series, one truth?

    I saw on another forum a discussion about canon in the 'verse.

    There were people who used two kinds of 'canon', the 'BtVS canon' and the 'Ats canon'. This is because of the differences between the series.
    Example:
    -Willow in season 7 of BtVS was an insecure shadow of the woman she once was, but in Ats she was a strong character.
    -In Sunnydale the most demons are evil, in LA the demons are eating milkshakes.
    -When Jasmine is controlling the whole world, Sunnydale is free.
    etc.

    The other statement was; There is one canon. The same universe & the same characters ... but sometimes there is fanwanking needed. But 'BtVS canon' is the same as 'Ats canon'.



    I always believed that there was just one canon, I'm ready to fanwank the differences away. I never thought about 'two canons' before, how can somebody explain what happened to Faith without making it one canon by example.
    34
    There is one truth.
    88.24%
    30
    There is a 'BtVS canon' and an 'Ats canon'.
    5.88%
    2
    Something else,
    5.88%
    2


  • #2
    I'm pretty incline to say there's only one canon, but I'm no including Angel Season 5, not because it's a bad one, actually it's my favorite, but because it brings too much untruth and weird stuff. Mostly with the scoobies turning their back on Angel and Spike because they work for Wolfram & Hart, they are not even supposed to know what that is, honestly, can you imagine Buffy turning her back on the two men she love just like that, and falling in love of a vampire who seems nothing more than a casanova...Thank god there's Andrew for making us believe it's still one canon, but no Buffy, Willow, Giles or Slayers on "Angel" is hard to accept. One las thing, and even if I love Spike in season 5, his appeareance is just a betrayal to BtVS. He was at the end of his journey as was Anya or Wesley, bringing him back is nonsense and just an easy way to make Angel season 5 more entairtaining and what upsets me is that it worked. Spike back and "The Girl In Question" are the two things that makes me not include Angel season 5 as part of the big Buffy/Angel canon.
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    • #3
      Maybe Willow was fine being herself with the scoobies becuase she was so close to them and so did not mind opening up and being more herself with them while in Ats she wanted to be SEEN as being a 'strong character' even if she wasn't at the time if you get me.

      I think that I have an answer for the evilness of demons as well and mainly can be described in one 'Hellmouth'. The presence of this thing which is supposed to pump out an evil vibe of sorts would attract the evil demons while the 'good' ones would realise that it was probably of little use to them and may even lead to trouble, best to be in a place less likely to have people who know about demons etc. and away from the demon's which most of the 'good' people probably think of as evil as well. Also apart from the hellmouth why would a demon go to sunnydale? they're haldly going to enjoy the sun now are they.
      Another answer to this is that when did buffy ever really be in a posistion to see 'good' demons? The only place really was Willy's (Willie's?) place and she never really had anything to do with the demons in there except the occasional brawl so how do we know they were or weren't evil. Angel due to his very nature of being one would understand far more about how demons are and so was able to be much more sceptic about Buffy's dogma (99% of the time) of Human=good/save, Demon=bad/kill and thus how would we ever really get into the idea of there being good demons. Angel went around the demon's social area - clubs, bars etc. where the 'good' demons would be most likely to hang out whereas Buffy was always more about the graveyard and killing the almost certainly evil vamps.

      The thrid one I am having trouble with but something in the back of my mind is telling me that they had a power cut or something at the time but I might be talking rubbish on that one (at least )
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      • #4
        The thrid one I am having trouble with but something in the back of my mind is telling me that they had a power cut or something at the time but I might be talking rubbish on that one (at least )
        No, no, not rubbish, this is exactly the explanation I found and it's a good one, so much good I'm starting to think Joss did it on purpose, anyway, no power, no tv, no tv, no Jasmine influence!
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
          (...) "The Girl In Question" are the two things that makes me not include Angel season 5 as part of the big Buffy/Angel canon.
          I don't want that episode in my canon either, it's so OOC. I'm okay to include the rest of season 5 in the big B/A canon (altough I also agree with you about Spike's return ... but I can live with that.), but TGIQ should never be canon.

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          • #6
            There is one singular canon of story and mythology in the Buffyverse.

            The canon includes --

            Buffy Seasons 1 through 5 (WB, 100 episodes)
            Buffy Seasons 6 and 7 (UPN, 44 episodes)
            Buffy Season 8 (Dark Horse comics, 9 issues and continuing)
            Angel Seasons 1 through 5 (WB, 110 episodes)
            Angel: "After the Fall" (IDW Publications, 1 issue and continuing)

            These stories share one basic overarching mythology and set of characters and history. Any discrepencies of characterization between any two parts (like between Buffy Season 7 and Angel Season 4) shouldn't be treated with any more or less skepticism than between any two episodes of the same part ("The Initiative" and "Fool For Love", for example).

            Angel 5.20 "The Girl in Question" is canon, but since later canon (Buffy 8.01 "The Long Way Home", Part I, to be specific ) has clarified that a lot of the most upsetting parts of that story weren't actually true, it shouldn't bother you too much
            KingofCretins
            What?
            Last edited by KingofCretins; 12-12-07, 08:41 PM.
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            • #7
              I'm going with there is one canon.

              Both series sort of sway into their own mythologies and make certain allowances but they are stemmed, nonetheless, from the same mythos.

              I don't find season five too outside the realm. If anything season four AtS is most outlandish because the effects of Jasmine are never even seen or alluded to on BtVS. And that's sort od a big thing, imo.
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              • #8
                I always felt there was one canon. The differences were in the perceptions of the characters of the show. For example, BTVS was seen through the eyes of the scoobies so they were more vulnerable. While ATS was through Angel and Cordy's eyes and therefore Buffy was more irrational and stubborn when on episodes.

                Angel was looking for salvation so he saw the PTB as someone who could give it to him. Buffy was looking to be free and therefore only saw any greater power as an obstacle to overcome.

                Really I didn't find any differences in the canon. However I absolutely adored how ATS spent so much more time with alternate dimensions.

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                • #9
                  I agree with one canon. I think it would be too confusing to have two separate canons going on at the same time. Because there was a deliberate "separation" between BtVS and AtS then while they were being aired it did create some moments of "difference" between the two canons. I don't believe the writers from both shows were keeping up with the complete story lines of both series or even the consistancies between the characters. I don't believe they were on the phone to each other weekly discussing "would Willow say this?" "Do this?" "Act this way?" "Lets look that up in the Canononical Companion Guide and find out if it breaks character!"

                  Joss and his writers will reconcile some of the "differences" in the comics and others we will have to reconcile within ourselves.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nina View Post
                    -Willow in season 7 of BtVS was an insecure shadow of the woman she once was, but in Ats she was a strong character.
                    Perhaps she felt seeing she wasn't in Sunnydale where the First's attention was mostly focused on she didn't think the First could interfere with her magics like it did in 'Bring on the Night.'

                    -In Sunnydale the most demons are evil, in LA the demons are eating milkshakes.
                    And plenty of evil ones as well

                    If Btvs had come out saying "no demons are good, not one" I'd agree there is a big problem there. However, we saw that in Btvs we had demons who were good like Clem. I usually have two reasons why we didn't see a variety of good and bad demons as much as we did on Ats. Firstly, being a vampire Angel seemed to associate with demons more, he was more in that demon world which gave us the opportunity to see different kinds of demons. Secondly, the Hellmouth drew all kinds of nasties towards Sunnydale, the dark energy probably brought in the darker demons.

                    -When Jasmine is controlling the whole world, Sunnydale is free.
                    etc.
                    I thought Angel stopped her before she could control the world? Doesn't one of the episodes basically state as such? Doesn't Angel say something about stopping her before her influence spreads which I suspect she did? Besides Sunnydale lost all power at some point, I'll try and wank it as being right around the time Jasmine appeared on American TV.

                    IMO the two are the same canon, they come from the same verse and are as official as eachother.

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                    • #11
                      One canon, two cities - which means different contexts for the demons to operate in, and the other characters too. People have different attitudes in small towns and big cities, so why not demons? Perhaps all the evil ones go to Sunnydale, it being a hellmouth, while a lot of the more ambiguous ones feel more at home in LA? Other differences I'd blame on bad writing.


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                      • #12
                        I don't really believe in canon. I think while we all watch the same stories, we will all interpret them in different ways. Canon is too much like rules for me. The best thing (for me) about the 'verse is its depth and range, which is partially created by subtle plotlines and characters which allow different people to interpret them in different ways. I guess we could decide that canon is everything that appears on the show, or everything with Joss's name on it, but with all these things it up to us to interpret them in our own way. One fan will see a scene and will make an assumption about a character from which is to blatantly obvious, another fan will see it in a completely different way.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rosamunde View Post
                          I don't really believe in canon. I think while we all watch the same stories, we will all interpret them in different ways. Canon is too much like rules for me. The best thing (for me) about the 'verse is its depth and range, which is partially created by subtle plotlines and characters which allow different people to interpret them in different ways. I guess we could decide that canon is everything that appears on the show, or everything with Joss's name on it, but with all these things it up to us to interpret them in our own way. One fan will see a scene and will make an assumption about a character from which is to blatantly obvious, another fan will see it in a completely different way.
                          Canon isn't a rule on how we should interpret other events. It is basically a rule as to what events are officially there in the Buffyverse timeline to be interpreted. Interpretations vary but the said subject matter being interpreted does not. Well that is my opinion on it anyway

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                          • #14
                            Character attributes aren't really what 'canon' refers to, although it can come up. The important stuff is that there is one governing set of 'phlebotenum' for the Buffyverse -- specific rules that they don't break without reason, about vampires, demons, souls, PTB, First Evil, etc.
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                            • #15
                              Oh, there is most clearly one canon. It is the "Buffyverse," and it consists of BtVS 1-8, AtS 1-5 & After the Fall, the two "Tales" miniseries, and "Fray." Joss has also said "The Origin" can be accepted as canon, but seeing as the vampires in that comic are green and batlike, I don't think we can do so.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by patxshand View Post
                                Oh, there is most clearly one canon. It is the "Buffyverse," and it consists of BtVS 1-8, AtS 1-5 & After the Fall, the two "Tales" miniseries, and "Fray." Joss has also said "The Origin" can be accepted as canon, but seeing as the vampires in that comic are green and batlike, I don't think we can do so.
                                Quoted for truth. There is one canon.

                                After The Fall however, isn't a part of it. Whedon himself doesn't really consider it.
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                                • #17
                                  After The Fall however, isn't a part of it. Whedon himself doesn't really consider it.
                                  That is in fact the exact opposite of true. Per Joss, "Angel: After the Fall" is the official continuation of the "Angel" TV series. The first name on the cover of each "After the Fall" chapter is Whedon. He is created alongside Bryan Lynch as "plotted by" -- it has the same absolute, incontrovertible canon status as any televised season of Buffy or Angel and Buffy Season 8.
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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                    That is in fact the exact opposite of true. Per Joss, "Angel: After the Fall" is the official continuation of the "Angel" TV series. The first name on the cover of each "After the Fall" chapter is Whedon. He is created alongside Bryan Lynch as "plotted by" -- it has the same absolute, incontrovertible canon status as any televised season of Buffy or Angel and Buffy Season 8.
                                    "It will definitely use Season 6's proposed stories as inspiration, but its not exactly Season 6."

                                    In his own words. I respect those who see it as the official continuation, definitely, and I'm also reading it, but I do not see it as canon, and I do not believe Joss does either. Proposed does not equal given, and inspiration does not equal direction.
                                    Jack's Complete Lack of Surprise.

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                                    • #19
                                      In his own words. I respect those who see it as the official continuation, definitely, and I'm also reading it, but I do not see it as canon, and I do not believe Joss does either. Proposed does not equal given, and inspiration does not equal direction.
                                      He was referring exclusively to the fact that it's a mini-series, not a "season" in the same fully developed way that Buffy Season 8 is. It's canon. That's no more subject to individual interpretation than a brick wall is. Joss has been unequivocal on the subject. He handpicked Lynch, he has developed the story with him, there's really not anything to base a claim that it's not canon on.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by InsaneTrollogic View Post
                                        "It will definitely use Season 6's proposed stories as inspiration, but its not exactly Season 6.".
                                        That doesn't mean that Joss doesn't consider it to be canon; it just means he's changed his mind since he originally planned what to do for this season.


                                        As for my general opinion: I think "canon is for writers." If Joss (or anybody personally authorised by Joss) is writing a new story, then 'canon' is all the things that he must include as part of the background story.

                                        If Buffy's father is called Hank in a canon episode, then he can't decide that his real name is John later... or if he does, then it's a continuity error. However, the fact that Spike's original real name was William Pratt doesn't appear in any canon source - it's something Joss has said in an interview, I believe - so if in a later styory he comes up with a better name for him, he's perfectly free to use that instead. That's the differencve between canon and non-canon.

                                        But as far as viewers or fanfic writers are concerned, we're perfectly free to ignore parts of canon, or treat non-canonical information as if it were canon for us. But that's not 'really' canon.

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