Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

We are the Champions... right?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • We are the Champions... right?

    Pick all the answers you want based on whatever criterion you think applies.

    The word "Champion" has been used throughout Angel the Series, and in one episode of Buffy, to describe... something. The meaning seems to shift a lot depending on the context. Is it just fighting the fight? Is it being a super-powered warrior for good?

    Provide whatever insight you'd like to what it means to be a champion.

    Arrrgh I forgot Gunn. Crud.
    358
    Buffy Summers
    12.01%
    43
    Angel
    11.17%
    40
    Spike
    9.22%
    33
    Faith Lehane
    6.42%
    23
    Willow Rosenberg
    6.15%
    22
    Cordelia Chase
    7.82%
    28
    Xander Harris
    6.98%
    25
    Drogyn
    3.63%
    13
    The Groosalug
    2.51%
    9
    Riley Finn
    1.68%
    6
    Wesley Wyndham-Price
    6.15%
    22
    Winifred Burkle
    6.15%
    22
    Connor
    3.07%
    11
    Krevlorneswathe of the Deathwok Clan
    1.12%
    4
    Rupert Giles
    5.87%
    21
    Andrew Wells
    1.12%
    4
    Robin Wood
    1.12%
    4
    Dawn Summers
    2.23%
    8
    Anya Jenkins
    2.79%
    10
    Tara Maclay
    2.79%
    10
    KingofCretins
    What?
    Last edited by KingofCretins; 08-12-07, 04:26 AM.
    sigpic
    Banner by LRae12

  • #2
    Too bad you forgot Gunn! I might have voted for him. Just wrapping up my rewatch of AtS 5, and once Fred's death calls him back to himself, he's a really straight-up guy. I'm much more struck by the tragedy of his fate in AtF.

    It's an interesting exercise, because I find myself not voting for characters that I love. Not Wesley (easily my second favorite character in the 'verse) because of his deep-seated moral ambiguity. Not Angel, whom I admire a great deal, because he has not yet come to the truth about himself (though I expect he will, eventually). Not Willow or Xander because their roles are still in service of Buffy and not their own. Not Faith, though I think it's right around the corner for her. Not Tara, who brings a special light to the 'verse, but not the light of a champion. All heroic in their own way, though.
    sigpic
    "I don't want to be this good-looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear." Banner Credit: Vampmogs

    Comment


    • #3
      I only see three people on this list as champions..

      Buffy, Angel, and Spike. Because other than those three, I can't consider anyone else much of a "champion.." simply because they haven't put their lives on the line as much as these three have.

      And Kings.. Groo? A champ?
      sigpic

      -Sig by BlasterBoy-

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm torn on how to answer my own question. On one hand, the shows tell us explicitly, in many cases, who are champions -- Buffy, Angel, Spike, Cordelia, Groo, and Drogyn are all explicitly called as much by various entities, like the Oracles, etc. Angel, though, refers (at least in his "Awakening" fantasy) to all of his gang as champions.

        I figure, if they are, then the scoobies sure as heck are.
        sigpic
        Banner by LRae12

        Comment


        • #5
          Well looking at the Webster's definition of "Champion"

          1: warrior, fighter
          2: a militant advocate or defender <a champion of civil rights>
          3: one that does battle for another's rights or honor <God will raise me up a champion - Sir Walter Scott>
          4: a winner of first prize or first place in competition; also : one who shows marked superiority <a champion at selling>

          I like the word "defender" in def 2 and all of def 3.

          I voted Buffy, both vamps, Faith and Giles.

          All of the above actually fit the above criteria, but I believe there were those who were called to defend or were created to defend. Buffy and Faith are Slayers who are called to defend.

          The vamps - each in their own ways - were created to defend. And not because I am such a Spike fan - but Spike sought a soul (and for love) - I lean more towards his being a champion. Something about "he did it all for love" illustrates the word "champion" for me. Drums up all those "knight in shining armor" fighting for his "lady".

          Giles is a Watcher - and although they don't go into any specifics in many of the episodes - I always felt Watchers were like Slayers - in a way. They were called to train the Slayers.
          -TP<3
          "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
          - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

          Spuffy Videos!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
            I only see three people on this list as champions..

            Buffy, Angel, and Spike. Because other than those three, I can't consider anyone else much of a "champion.." simply because they haven't put their lives on the line as much as these three have.

            And Kings.. Groo? A champ?
            if putting ones life on the line is your criteria for being a champion, how does Spike rank higher than Willow and Xander? They were putting their lives on the line while he was still Mr. big bad.
            Legend of the Seeker
            http://www.dadt.com/lots/

            Comment


            • #7
              How did you possibly forget Gunn? Gunn in season 1 of AtS was as champion as they came. He lost it along the way, particularly in season 5, but for a long time there Gunn was a true champion. In the same way as Gunn, Anne evolved into a champion -- "a champion of civil rights". Does one have to do battle to be considered a champion? That is how Gunn and Angel achieved it, but it's not necessary.

              I think "champion" is a difficult one to classify, but I suppose Angel certainly did champion his people. They used incredibly unsubtle imagery in "Judgement" to show him as a champion. For Buffy... I'm not as sure. She was a hero -- but if she was a champion, who was she the champion of? Buffy saved the world to save the world... Angel helped people on the world's behalf. Did Buffy have "a people"? I suppose she had her friends, her mother and sister, so maybe we'll accept Buffy as the "champion of light" against the agents of evil, and the "champion of the people she loved" by protecting them and being lifted by them.

              Faith never quite got there, but as we saw in episodes like "Judgement" and "Salvage", she was working on it. Willow also never got there, as was shown all too clearly in her Dark Willow arc, although she achieved a little in "Chosen". To me, Spike wasn't necessarily there either, no matter what "Chosen", "Destiny" or "Soul Purpose" says. Giles is the only Scooby that I'd ponder as a champion, not so sure if he is one though. It's too vague a term, used in strange ways in both shows, particularly Angel.

              I think I'd say Cordelia is almost, or mostly, a champion, for her well-intentioned actions in "Birthday" and "Tomorrow", even if they were manipulated actions. More importantly though is the sacrifice in "You're Welcome" and the role she played for Angel. Perhaps personal preference can be influential, though.

              I'll vote Angel, Buffy and Cordelia, wish I could vote Gunn, would have liked to see Anne on that list and just say "maybe" regarding Giles and Spike.

              Comment


              • #8
                Like in the last forum like I said it depends on the definition we give of a champion.

                What I will say is that many of the character's listed and more have tried to make the world better by doing what they can to help people in different ways

                Champion warriors

                Buffy: Vampire Slayer and one of the most successful.

                Angel: Vampire with a soul, a warrior formerly working for the powers then W&H. Overall serving humanity and the human dignity.

                Kamal: The prio motu from Judgement was a warrior protecting a pregnant.

                Knights of Byzantium: Just because their interests conflict with Buffy's doesn't mean they were not fighting for what they believe was right.

                Daniel Holtz: Before things went a bit wrong, he helped humanity by killing vampires.

                Los Hermanos Numeros: The number brothers defeated the Aztec warrior, and the devil's robot, apparently.

                Drogyn the battlebrand: With a name like that you can't not be a warrior for the forces of good. He considered Angel an ally.

                SoulledSpike: Proved that he was a champion in Chosen and he was considered a warrior before that (even before his soul).

                Champions: Other people who help try to make the world safer or better in their own way, not making them less of a champion though

                Giles: Fought off a vampire or two in his day. His esoteric knowledge and love for Buffy has contributed to the cause.

                Willow: Various, but using her various skills as a witch and computer hacker to help out.

                Xander: Perhaps most notably saved the world through compassion in Grave, proving his heart.

                Oz: Various deeds of compassion and helping out as a Scooby. Again, you shouldn't forget the small stuff.

                Anya: Ends up dying doing the 'stupid thing'.

                Riley: As a scooby and then rejoining the army to continue his fight.

                Tara: Shouldn't be overlooked. Her use of magic has helped out on more than one occasion, standing up to Glory was pure champ all the way.

                Dawn: Understands what it's like to be a Zeppo-style champ.

                Cordy: Considered a champion by most of AI.

                Wesley: Despite his moral ambiguity has given his life for try and help people.

                Gunn: As a leader fighting on the streets, with AI and even as a lawyer at W&H.

                Fred: The Magic Bullet was my favourite moment, but she has done a lot and was a valued member of AI.

                Connor: His strained relationship with Angel shouldn't mar his continued fighting of vamps and demons including the Beast even after it beat the crap out of him. Saving his father in NFA will stick out in fans' minds.

                Anne: Heped the cause in her own way. Shouldn't be discounted.

                Groo: Doubts he himself is a champion at first but as soon as he stops working for monk boy and believes it, then we get the beginnings of a champion.


                Wood: As vampire hunter and warrior against the first evil.

                Faith: Slayer and redemption in progress.

                Of course this is based upon the definitions of good on the show but of course it's difficult to say "this person is one and this one isn't". Morality can be relative and we sometimes have different perceptions of good and the price we pay for it (Are Wesley's tactics too ruthless?). I've listed these people because they are individuals who have tried to make a positive difference. Based upon Angel's champion speech, I can see all the people listed as champions, defending a cause a person, an ideology.

                Even the WC want to protect the world (or perhaps humans at least ) from vampires and demon who threaten our existence. They may only see the war rather than the individual but does this mean that they ultimately have different goals?
                Hmmm.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kana View Post
                  Fred: The Magic Bullet was my favourite moment, but she has done a lot and was a valued member of AI.
                  That's something I overlooked: Fred's actions in "The Magic Bullet" were heroic, championing free will even when the question of right and wrong was so murky. A dramatic moment of strength for Fred, and a very decisive one, one that I like to think was fuelled as much by the desire to fight the horror of what was happening as to not be alone against Jasmine. That's a fair point.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is a really hard one, all them are champions in my eyes. People have said the definitions of the word Champion, and the definitions fit each person in different ways. I picked the obvious Buffy, Angel, Spike and Xander I love his speech to dawn in Potential and that's his power that's why I believe xander is champion but in different ways to the others.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This was difficult, I'm not sure how I would describe a champion. Right know I would pick the people who defends the people because that is the right thing.

                      Ik picked the 'normal people' Cordelia, Xander and Fred. They fight not because it's their destiny, not because they have the power to do so or because they have to make up for their sins. They fight because it's the right thing to do. They are the champions of the normal people. Gunn also belongs to this group.

                      I voted for Drogyn. Why? Because he was a really good person. I think that he was a pure warrior who defended the world and that is why he had the noble job to take care of the 'Old ones'.

                      And my #1 champion: Connor.
                      It didn't matter how ****ed up he was he always saved people, well besides his break down in 'Home'. He never complained about his power, and it was for him an unwritten rule to protect people. Nobody paid him, forced him or something like that. He just did it.
                      And now he is bright again, he likes his powers. And I think that is the key to be a real champion.

                      Spoiler:
                      In the comics, Lynch already told us that Connor is like a superhero. He fights for humanity because he likes that. He likes being a warrior and to protect humanity.



                      I love Buffy and Angel. But I never saw them as champions. More as warriors who fighted the good fight because they had to. Angel was the closest to be a champion, but in the end he failed I guess.
                      Nina
                      and her haircut.
                      Last edited by Nina; 08-12-07, 04:48 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I voted for them all. They're all risking their life for the world, they're all sacrificing normal life for the sake of the greater good, they're all doing the best they can with their superpowers and without.

                        No matter what the real meaning of the word is, I see all the characters as heroes.
                        Made by Trickyboxes
                        Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I voted for Angel only.

                          Call me old school, but I always interpreted "champion" as the fighting instrument of another greater force. Like a knight who goes off to do battle for his king.

                          So Angel is truly the only one who has been chosen to fight on behalf of another entity...the POTB. Excluding Buffy, everyone else has fought the good fight out of choice. Buffy through random luck inherited a position akin to champion. However, Buffy has continually rebeled against the faction that she is supposed to represent. So I don't consider her an actual "champion". She deserves the term hero. She is her own force embodying courage, power, and personal conviction.

                          I always loved the promos (S5?) with Angel posing in front of a wall that had champion on the background. In one photo, Angel is position so that only "pion" is visible. This evokes the word "peon" or a person working in servitude to pay off a debt. Which Angel is working for the POTB in hopes of redemption. It also evokes the word "pawn". Which S5 is about Angel being the pawn of both the POTB and W&H with each force trying to position him until he decides to take matters into his own hands in the last arc and bring the confrontation of the two. It's at this point that Angel would break through to the rank of hero.

                          Ultimately, I love the irony of a highly regarded position being so close in meaning to being another's blunt instrument.

                          Lydia made the punch!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If there is an aspect of being a champion that involves servitude, I think it must be an implicit status, because, there are several characters (at least six) thusly labeled by the shows' various characters, and of them, only Angel has an explicit "fealty" (the term used by the Oracles in "I Will Remember You") to the Powers. Buffy would certainly argue, though, that she is bound in service to her calling, as was articulated in "Prophecy Girl".
                            sigpic
                            Banner by LRae12

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                              If there is an aspect of being a champion that involves servitude, I think it must be an implicit status, because, there are several characters (at least six) thusly labeled by the shows' various characters, and of them, only Angel has an explicit "fealty" (the term used by the Oracles in "I Will Remember You") to the Powers. Buffy would certainly argue, though, that she is bound in service to her calling, as was articulated in "Prophecy Girl".
                              I'm sure that champion can apply to everyone on the list using the various interpretations of the word. They all did a lot of good.

                              However, I believe the word champion got waaaaaaay overused during the course of the shows. And in that repeated use by other characters, it lost its first meaning of fealty. The more conventional terminology just means a defender of a cause and I'm sure when people like Cordelia used it, that's what they meant. And Spike is all self importance anyway.

                              The only reason to accept why the writers overused the word champion (rather than pulling out a thesaurus) is that they implied the fealty.

                              As far as Buffy in Prophecy Girl, that was her fate. It was beyond the machinations of the PTB and the Senior Partners. No matter what Buffy did, that course of events was destined. She did not fight for anything, she died. Angel and Xander changed the course of events that night (as later confirmed by Whistler in Becoming). Anyway, wasn't Buffy mostly peeved that the Master killed her and ruined her dress when she staked out her revenge?

                              Lydia made the punch!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                Pick all the answers you want based on whatever criterion you think applies.

                                The word "Champion" has been used throughout Angel the Series, and in one episode of Buffy, to describe... something. The meaning seems to shift a lot depending on the context. Is it just fighting the fight? Is it being a super-powered warrior for good?

                                Provide whatever insight you'd like to what it means to be a champion.

                                Arrrgh I forgot Gunn. Crud.
                                I think it slightly involves being a bit of an ass, if you think you're a champion. Rejecting the champion term is Angel's better side asserting itself, imo, while claiming the title shows Spike at his worst, when he's just trying to prove how big his undead appendage is.

                                However, if champion is a title that can be thrust upon you and not something you're claiming for yourself, I'd define it as someone who's not just a fighter, but one with either extra strength, whether in mystical or physical terms. And who chooses to put all their other desires below the desire to fight/protect, but also having the ego to claim the title. So, self-sacrifice is an important part of it, but so is having the confidence and the swagger.

                                So, Buffy is a champion, Willow isn't. Until season 8...

                                But also having a big shiny weapon. Can't deny the importance of that.


                                -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I think the 'main champions' or at least the ones who get the headlines have all gained esteem from their role. I've never actually seen anything wrong with this. Angel not accepting the term champion was more to do with his nihilism more than anything else.

                                  I don't think accepting the title denies the individual of the title. It doesn't negate the acts nor does it necessarily mar the intention of why one would become a champion. I took Angel's main motivation of his being a champion in Epiphany or in Deep Down.

                                  It's never bothered me, when Angel called himself a champion, he wasn't even the first person to call himself that. Recognising a role, that you have, a responsibility to the world, to a cause is really, 'meh', ok. The importance is really the job you do.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by kana View Post
                                    I don't think accepting the title denies the individual of the title. It doesn't negate the acts nor does it necessarily mar the intention of why one would become a champion. I took Angel's main motivation of his being a champion in Epiphany or in Deep Down.
                                    Oh, I don't find accepting the title per se a bad thing, it's the fact that I like Angel more when he denies it, and dislike Spike more when he claims it...it's not the claiming or the denying, it's the way that it's claimed (oafishly and smugly and self-deceptively in Spike's case) or denied (cutely and goof-Angelishly, in Angel's case).


                                    -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Which part are you referring to? The part when Angel says he hates the word, I found disturbing not because it's bad thing in itself but what it represents. He's losing faith in what it means to him, that's far more worrying than being a little cocky.

                                      Spike in Chosen seems a little arrogant at first because he's actually trying to cover up his lack of assuredness but he seem unsure what the term means. He doesn't, he has little experience, but he's willing to find out. In Season 5 both Spike believing in his own hype and Angel's nihilism disturbed me (actually I liked Angel's nihilism because I enjoy all facets that are Angel-like), I can't remember when Angel denied the term and I actually considered it a positive thing.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Good question. To me, champion is he/she who doesn't choose their path, but still does choose good... it's a fine line, but I felt Buffy had less choice about being a slayer than Angel does about making the best of his sitch. It's silly, but it's just how I feel- like people who got into the situation and stuck with it rather than running, rather than those who went in knowing what they were up against.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X