Tom Lenk and Kali Rocha

[Weredog]

What do these two have in common? They both appeared in Buffy prior to their recurring roles.
For those who didn't know, Tom Lenk played one of Harmony's minions in "Real Me" while Kali Rocha played Cicily in "Fools for Love."

My question is: does anybody know how they went from a one-shot guest star to playing a different recurring role? Were they friends with a cast/crew member? If not, how did they get hired for a second role?

I'm just wondering how Tom and Kali got to play a different role on the same show....

[KingofCretins]

Well, they were hardly unique in playing more than one role on the shows, but they were the only two who had "recurring" roles as well.

Not quite sure how it happens, honestly. In the case of Brian Thompson (Luke, The Judge) and Jeff Kober (Zachary Kralik, Rack), there are only so many go-to villains for genre TV. Although, Jeff Kober probably should be on this list as well, since he appeared twice as Rack.

[NileQT87]

cecily underwood and halfreck are the same character. halfreck calls spike "william" in "older and far away". halfreck also mentions the crimean wars which happened in the 1850s--thus, she's probably been a vengeance demon since at least then (that's before her bit as cecily).

and there are several actors that have been different characters on btvs, ats and firefly.

[Jenni Lou]

As with a lot of actors, I would bet it would come down to the creative team having been impressed with their work in those guest spots as well as their repoire with the cast and crew. Perhaps they were just liked well enough to have been offered a larger role later down the road.

Another series to do this is Law & Order. That's one example. Several of its regulars did one time guest spots only to be later added as regulars as a completely different character: Jerry Orbach, S. Epatha Merkerson, Anie Parisse, Michael Imperioli, Jeremy Sisto. They all played different characters--usually suspects or witnesses-- before moving on to become regulars as cops and lawyers.

[KingofCretins]

Good eye for a great series, Jenni Lou. The best recurring actor they've used on Law & Order, to me, is Denis O'Hare. Most of their recasting comes from the NY stage. But you mentioning Annie Parisse makes me miss Alex again

I'm pretty sure that only Andy Umberger and Jonathan Woodward have been on all three of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly.

[Weredog]

cecily underwood and halfreck are the same character. halfreck calls spike "william" in "older and far away". halfreck also mentions the crimean wars which happened in the 1850s--thus, she's probably been a vengeance demon since at least then (that's before her bit as cecily).

Is that confirmed or just a theory?

[KingofCretins]

It's ambiguous -- some argue that the "William?" line was just there as a wink to the fact that Kali Rocha had played both parts. I think one of the (non-canon) Spike comics explores it as though she really is the same person, though.

[Jenni Lou]

I thought some fan had posed that question to the writers and that they had shot down that idea. I might be remembering wrong because it was so long ago. But there was so much discussion about it after Kali Rocha reappeared and most of us really thought they were the same. But I really do think the writers had said that they hadn't considered that possibility but might have had they had more to do with the character after Selfless.

And dude, yeah. Law & Order os so utterly awesome. They recycle actors like crazy but you hardly notice.

[NileQT87]

the fact that that "william?" line is placed in there is canon (meaning that halfreck remembers spike as william), no matter what the writers say. it made it into official canonical script. thus, writers intentions become void.

cecily's last name in the "fool for love" script was "adams", but that was void because it wasn't spoken until the "lies my parents told me" spoken dialog confirmed it as "underwood". the difference is one was unspoken and one was spoken in the episode. the spoken in the episode (official episodic canon) takes over the discarded information in the script notes for a prior episode.

here, from wikipedia:

Joss Whedon and Kali Rocha have both made statements that Halfrek and Cecily were indeed the same entity.

[KingofCretins]

The canon line "William?" in and of itself doesn't establish identity. Spike's got some renown in demon circles, after all.

[Jenni Lou]

the fact that that "william?" line is placed in there is canon (meaning that halfreck remembers spike as william), no matter what the writers say. it made it into official canonical script. thus, writers intentions become void.

I always thought they put that moment in there because it is the first time the characters see each other and so they thought they would have that sort of awkward familiarity to one another...just in case the writers ever wanted to explore that further.


Found a cool fan comment on Whedonesque:

Cecily couldn't be pre-demonic Halfrek. Hallie and Anya once talked about something they did during the Crimean War, which was mid 1850's. The Cecily thing happened in 1880.

And from wikipedia (which can be edited by anyone so isn't exactly always factual):

In the season 6 episode "Older and Far Away", Halfrek recognizes Spike and calls him by his human name, William. Spike also recognizes Halfrek, but when asked to explain this they both sheepishly deny being acquainted. This implies that Halfrek had previously been Cecily. However, Halfrek once told Anya that she witnessed the Crimean War (circa 1853). The timing of this event would indicate that Halfrek existed as a demon at least three decades prior to the adoption of youthful human form in Cecily. Joss Whedon and Kali Rocha have both made statements that Halfrek and Cecily were indeed the same entity.

I think it's one of those things we'll never know for sure.

[Veverka]

Good eye for a great series, Jenni Lou. The best recurring actor they've used on Law & Order, to me, is Denis O'Hare. Most of their recasting comes from the NY stage. But you mentioning Annie Parisse makes me miss Alex again

I'm pretty sure that only Andy Umberger and Jonathan Woodward have been on all three of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly.

Somehow I think there are five who were on all three... let's see:
Andy Umberger- D'Hoffryn, that creepy eye doctor guy, the commander dude.
Jonathan Woodward- Ford, Knox, that guy that dies after pretending to die...
Carlos Jacott- Ken in Anne, Harri's new demon husband, the agent in the pilot...
Jeff Rickets- was a council killer was also a hands in blue type...
http://whedonesque.com/comments/11883 lists one or two others...

Who can add to this list?

AND!!! Who will also be in Dollhouse? That's my big question

A side note about Tom Lenk- he guested on six feet under, 4.02, for about two seconds... guess what? He played an 'annoying virgin', lol.

[KingofCretins]

Carlos Jacott is the one you mentioned who was the Fed, the demon guy on "Angel", and Ken in "Anne".

[NileQT87]

bones and how i met your mother have huge reputations for jossverse actors (especially bones, where the list is gigantic).

last episode of bones just had the magic bullet bookstore guy as the baddie.

[Jenni Lou]

bones and how i met your mother have huge reputations for jossverse actors (especially bones, where the list is gigantic).

last episode of bones just had the magic bullet bookstore guy as the baddie.

That's so true. Both great shows, btw. Absolutely adore them both. Didn't think I would like either one either! Thanks for pointing out Magic Bullet guy. I was totally trying to place him!

And the ep before last of Bones had Azura Skye, aka Cassie.

How I Met Your Mother actually has Morena Baccarin and Tom Lenk in the same episode. And in another ep it has both Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker.

Also wanted to add that Alias has a few Jossverse folks too. Kevin Weisman, Gina Torres, Joel Grey, Harris Yulin...

[potterfanatic]

Is that confirmed or just a theory?

Well I remember listening to an audio commentary on Fool For Love and the writers said that it wasn't intended to mean that Halfrek is Cicily, it was intended as a mislead to confuse audiences.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Didn't they do a comic in which the link was established? Though, don't think it was a canon one so, perhaps doesn't mean anything. Thing is, if they're not the same, then the recognition was just annoying and stupid. I hope they are supposed to be the same.

[potterfanatic]

Well it was probably meant as a nod to the viewers who noticed the actress had been in the series before. Plus it is likely that Halfrek had met spike before anyway and we just didn't see it. Well she had been a vengance demon for ages and he is famous for having killed 2 slayers so it makes sense that Halfrek would know him or at least konw OF him

[Willow's Tara]

I believe Hallie and Cecliy are the same people, maybe Spike had killed someone close to Hallie back in those days? (Because Spike killed and I imagine wh would have gone for the ones who picked on him).

We never knew how Hallie became a vengence demon, and we know she knew Anya long time ago which we found out in season 5 somewhere

[NileQT87]

cecily/halfreck was a vengeance demon at least from the early 1850s (she mentions the crimean war). being that william was born in 1850 and cecily certainly doesn't appear older... she was definitely a vengeance demon even by the time he was born (or even much earlier for all we know).

the one thing that throws a monkey wrench in that comic is the fact that spike earned his nickname from driving railroad spikes through the heads of the partygoers (hence, the one man mentioning railroad spikes). in the comic, it makes it seem as though halfreck killed the partygoers.

another wrench is that she is a patron of abused children (william wasn't exactly an abused or neglected child). it is also insinuated that she has daddy issues. while anyanka targeted scorned women, halfreck targeted abused children. she was clearly on business in london (and apparently there was an underwood family where she went under the alias of cecily adams/underwood--as she was the 'youngest girl' according to anne pratt--making the relatively recent crimean war a likely pinpoint to her backstory). betcha that underwood family included d'hoffryn.

all in all, we know that halfreck has been around since at least the early 1850s (meaning her human birth was at least circa the 1820s) and she recognized spike as being "william".