Unfortunetly, Angel(us) Vs. Spike

[basakbangel]

Hi everyone!

I didn't want to open a thread like this but It's true that the disscusion of the 2 has always been a big deal. Do you think that the two were always enemies or were they enemies just because of love? This an opinion question but there are lots of people saying that the connection between Spike and Angel was just ended because of love. And It started with Drusilla then Buffy. Well, I think It's true. They weren't big enemies before but things changed.

Again, I want you to do 2 (or 3 or anything you want) things:

-Which one was your favourite?

-In a battle which one would win? (In this one, I want you to just think of the power for example: You love Angel but you think Spike is more powerful or you love Spike but you think Angel is more powerful.)

It doesn't have to be in a certain time. Just genearlly think of it.

[Enisy]

In a battle which one would win?

Just watch "Destiny".

I like Spike the best, although the "new and improved" Angel of AtS is also a favourite of mine (never liked him much on Buffy -- dull personality, and clearly amateur acting on David's side).

[Nostalgia]

I love Spike.. He's one of my all time favorite characters.. but we're talking about Angelus.. the most evil living creature to exist in the Buffyverse. He is mentally stronger and much more physically stronger because of it. As for Angel vs Spike.. I still would say Angel would win in the end.

Amateur acting by David? On Buffy? Have you seen season 2??!!!

[Enisy]

Yep. David's acting didn't do it for me until late S1 or early S2 of his show (which, I suppose, is one of the reasons I vastly prefer Angel/Darla to Angel/Buffy).

[sueworld]

If Spike was up against Angel I'd say they would be pretty evenly matched, but if he'd turned to his Angelus side, then i think all bets would be off and poor Spikey might find he's going to be going home in an ashtray.

[amy1234]

If Spike was up against Angel I'd say they would be pretty evenly matched, but if he'd turned to his Angelus side, then i think all bets would be off and poor Spikey might find he's going to be going home in an ashtray.

I have to agree, I love Spike and Angel, they are two of my favorite characters so I am torn between them both, but I defo think that Angelus would kick Spike all over town, but I also think it was Angel and Spike then it would be evenly matched

[kana]

Hi everyone!
. Do you think that the two were always enemies or were they enemies just because of love?

I think the two had mostly responded to each other as rivals.

Angelus was curious about Spike when he first arrived but was also threatened so he did took control of the situation by setting himself up as a mentor. His relationship with Drusilla (after his lost interest in the initial obsession) was mainly to assert dominance over Spike and of course and of course be a complete sadist in the process.

Then Spike wants to get one up on Angelus and this is one of the reasons he kills a Slayer, something that Angelus has never done, however by this time Angel had got his soul so they were not really rivals as such because Angel was on a different path.

In 1998, Angelus emerges again and Spike learns the hard way that he is less interested in hurting Buffy than hurting anyone who will respond to it: Angelus openly flirts with Dru.

After Spike gets a soul, it actually makes things worse for a while. When Buffy tells him that he can make a difference it makes Angel jealous less special. Spike never really gets over how Angelus treated him and he also feels that Buffy never really loved him and she really loved Angel all along. Angel is jealous of Spike's recent relationship with Buffy.

Things are made worst by the Shanshu prophecy as everyone seems to assume it's Angel's destiny and Spike feels angry that he doesn't get a look in and Angel feels threatened by Spike eligibility for the prophecy as it will take away what little meaning he had in his life at that point (after losing Connor and Cordy).

I think things are a little better between them as they both realise each other's worth to the mission.

Which one was your favourite?

Angel(us)

-In a battle which one would win?

Depends. The two are both skilled combatants and it depends who wants it more at the time. Angelus is more calculating and underhanded but Spike is more pragmatic and would be more likely to go for the kill earlier on. Not really sure.

[ThePoet's<3]

Well - if we go with Vampires + Age = Upper Powers - then Angel is the more powerful.

However, Spike can kick his BUTT on occasion!

[Southpaw]

I think of their relationship as kinda like brothers, always in competition. Angelus being kinda like the older brother, and Spike being younger and trying to prove himself to be equal to his older brother. Brothers sometimes fight and will dislike each other, but theres still some type of bond that links them.

Also, I voted for Angelus in the poll.

[Vampire in Rug]

I voted Angelus. He's so entertaining to watch because he's such a complete prick! In a one on one fight, I think that Angelus would take Spike to school 90% of the time. The other 10% is reserved for when Spike is fighting for something aside from himself, something he truly cares about that Angelus doesn't. I think that Spike could sometimes beat Angelus, but it sure as hell would never be easy. Most of the time Angelus would pwn Spike.

[selenspuffy]

I voted for Spike, I mean he killed two slayers and he's the champion He's kinda the cool guy, like he has something that Angel never had!!
I like him, he's cool Dont get me wrong, I love Angel/Angelus, but Spike is like, my favourite male character in Btvs..

[vampmogs]

Angelus is my favourite, followed by Angel then Spike. I find Angelus to be so compelling to watch, he is such a brutal nasty bastard and it is a joy to see David play him so evil. I then like Angel because his character is so complex and deep and I just enjoy his character more and his traits, I found he got more compelling as time went on. I like Spike's character mainly in the earlier years of Btvs and very late into Ats s5, but he did begin to bug me in later years though did have his moments.

In terms of who would win in a fight, I think both Angel and Angelus would beat Spike.

In 'Destiny' Angel was doubting himself as a champion, he wasn't himself, he didn't have the heart in it. Spike did, he wanted to take something from Angel. But in every other fight they've had Angel has always been more dominant and from what we've seen of both of them I'd say Angel is the better fighter. Though in saying that it would be very close.

And yeah pretty much agree with everyone that Angelus would kick Spike's ass pretty easily, cause he's just so evil

[Nina]

Not realy a question for me; Angel(us)

In Destiny, Angel was just depressed en insecure and didn't went for it. Spike who went totally for it, won. But I think that Angel is stronger. And Angelus don't give Spike a chance at all.

[Sid]

As a villain, Angelus is superior, but as overall characters, both are equally interesting to me. Spike is better suited to be a longterm regular on the shows, but anytime Angelus makes an appearance, no one can touch how entertaining he is. As for Angel and Spike, Angel is a better main character than Spike. Entertainment wise, depends on your preference. Spike is funnier, Angel teaches you better lessons... Whole bunch of crap that I don't feel like weighing in and would rather just enjoy both.

Although we only had one season to see evil Spike, I gather that while he's not as evil as Angelus, he's just as impressive in a fight. I do recall that in season 2, he faired better one on one against Buffy than Angelus, but then... Angel(us)'s skills were very notably amped up in his LA years.

Really, it all just comes down to what the story is that's being told. Either would beat the other one if that's what was needed for the story to flow. Buffy, Faith, Spike, Angel... any of these people could defeat any of the other three if the plot called for it. It's not as detailed and intricate as the fan discussions make it. Up 'till Destiny, Spike had never taken flight before in the manner that Angel does. But in their fight, he just did it... probably for no other reason than it looked cool and dramatic. It's all story.

In Destiny, Spike defeated Angel because flashbacks showed Angelus tormenting him, and it simply wouldn't look right if Spike lost at the end too, even if it's not Angelus he's losing to. It was a clean and legit victory, regardless of how many people regularly whine about it not counting because Spike "wanted it more." Even though this supposedly emotionally-crippled-to-the-point-of-losses-not-counting Angel was originally written to win the fight before the script was changed at last minute...

Lord, it's just lame the way fans discredit things so it paints their favorites in a favorable light sometimes. "No! My baby Angel wasn't confident in that episode! Even though it was one of the best fights we've ever seen in the Buffyverse! Even though Spike was supposed to lose at first!" Sigh, but I digress.

I disagree that Angelus would surely beat Angel. Sure, Angelus is more underhanded, but I'd imagine that both of them know the other's moves like the back of their hands (literally). Angel knows what Angelus is doing at all times, and vice versa. The only real game point in a fight that equal would be that Angel is more strong willed.

Based on how this question is worded, I voted for Angel(us). The question makes me think of raw strength, and I think Angel has more of it.

[sherrilina]

Do you think that the two were always enemies or were they enemies just because of love?

I like to think it was love....of each other! Only they just didn't want to admit to their feelings for one another, and thus tried to cover it up by seeking the same women, etc. Kind of like in "Y Tu Mama Tambien"....

Sorry, the Spangel in me couldn't let that comment slide....

As far as being a badass villain, def. Angelus--he's just so cool and snidely funny, even more so than Spike! Partly it's the fact that he's such a contrast to Angel....and DB has really gotten him down, watch Calvary, he's go the two personalities down to a tee, even the tiniest details....

And I do think Angelus is a bit more powerful than Spike, just b/c of age and experience....

[kana]

I would like to say, who is physically more powerful is not the same as who would win the battle.

Angel may well be stronger than Spike but in any case Spike has killed two slayers and the way I understand it standard slayer strength is greater than both Spike and Angel's. Spike wins were based upon his skill as a fighter so if Angel were to win the rematch it would be based more on skill than raw strength.

[Sid]

I would like to say, who is physically more powerful is not the same as who would win the battle.

Yeah, I agree with that. Buffy is apparently stronger than Angel, but after watching Angel's series all the way through, you're grasping at straws if you don't believe Angel is capable of beating Buffy in a fight.

"Physically powerful" not necessarily amounting to a win is why I voted for Angel while stating that either he or Spike could defeat the other.

[Nostalgia]

Whoa.. I think we're getting out of our boat here.. the question was Angelus vs Spike.. not Angelus vs Buffy. Yes, Angel has only gotten stronger through the years... but so has Buffy. Buffy would definetly beat Angel in a fight. Angel might have a shot.. but Buffy would always win. If she can beat Angelus, she can be Angel for cow's sake.

[Dorian's Kitten]

There's some interesting theories posted in this thread.

I'd have to say that Spike (with or without a soul) wouldn't stand much chance against Angelus if Angelus wanted to kill him. Angelus knows too well all of Spike's weaknesses. He'd taunt until Spike wasn't able to reason and then go in for the final cut.

I think ensouled Angel and ensouled Spike are more evenly matched. Angel may be physically stronger but his doubts and guilt hold him back; he questions his own motives and second guesses himself. Spike's determination to prove himself, to be worthy of love works to his benefit. He doesn't hold back.

That said I'm not so sure either of them could very easily kill the other. Angel has had the soul for decades, he and Spike have had at least a few run ins and he has most certainly had the opportunity to kill him and he doesn't. He clearly feels something, responsibility perhaps, for his vampire "family". Now that Spike has a soul, I don't see Angel being able to kill him.

And Spike may be more pragmatic, as Kana mentioned, but that doesn't mean he is looking to add any more blood to his hands. Also he tends to be a bit more ruled by his emotions, which are confused yet strong where Angel is concerned. He may passionately hate Angel, but I think he loves him with equal fervor. Angel is the successful older brother/father that he both admires and despises. Angel is both what Spike aspires to be and what he rebels against. Spike has strong identity issues, he can't kill the person he uses to define himself. He can only be NOT ANGEL if Angel is there being Angel.

Funny how they just might end up being the love of each other's lives. (I mean that in a non-slash sort of way, though slash is fun.) In a very real way Angel is the only one who can understand what Spike is going through and vice versa. The girls seem to come and go, but they appear to be stuck with each other.

I going to vote for Angel(us) as physically stronger.

Spike is soooo my favorite, my favorite vampire, my favorite character, my favorite one to look at, listen too....you get the idea. I find his journey, his constant fighting, more interesting. As a human and then as a vamp Angel gets things handed to him too easily: his looks, his charm, his soul, Dru, Buffy. But Spike has always had to fight for the things Angel has/had. Spike is the true underdog, more so than anyone else on the show. He is constantly working to maintain his status as second always and first never.

[Sid]

Whoa.. I think we're getting out of our boat here..

I used Buffy vs. Angelus to illustrate a point that pertains to Spike vs. Angel(us).

Buffy would definetly beat Angel in a fight. Angel might have a shot.. but Buffy would always win. If she can beat Angelus, she can be Angel for cow's sake.

I disagree that Buffy would definitely beat Angel in a fight without question. That's some SEVERE undermining of his abilities after everything we've seen him accomplish on his series.

After seeing it a bunch of times, I don't get where this "Angelus is way tougher than Angel" attitude is coming from. Just because Angelus is "evil" doesn't mean they both don't have the same mind, body, abilities, skills, etc. If it came down to Angelus vs. Angel, who does Angelus have the least amount of chance of succeeding to trick with his underhandednes? Angel. Spike isn't too far down on that list, either.

I think the fact that we've been shown that Spike is capable of defeating Angel should automatically render it feasible that he could beat Angelus too, although Angel(us) could beat Spike at any given time as well. Again, neither Buffy, Faith, Angel, or Spike are so far away from each other that any outcome isn't possible pending the circumstance of the plot.

Angel does not hold back when he believes in what he's doing; in fact I'd say his resolve is much stronger than Angelus's. I doubt highly that while they're both souled, Angel would hold back against Spike anymore than Spike would hold back against him. And if Angelus knows all of Spike's weaknesses, so does Angel. I imagine Spike is also greatly familiar with his grandsire's arsenal.

Though I'm sure for some, Angel defeating Spike will be due to his superiority, whereas the vice versa will be the result of some emotional trauma that we'll blow way out of proportion and/or dissect to an inane degree.

I do concur with the above poster about Spike being the underdog, though.