Which apocalypse was greater, Jasmine or The First?

[sherrilina]

Am I alone in thinking that the ATS season 4 apocalypse totally pwns the BTVS season 7 one, and that The First's apocalypse pales in comparison to Jasmine's? I mean, with Jasmine you've got rain of fire, the sun going out, mass mind control....whereas nothing of that scale ever happens in season 7 Buffy!

But which apocalypse do you think was greater, or more severe and well, apocalyptic!

[Ojuice5001]

Well, I'm sure the First's apocalypse would have been just as destructive if Buffy hadn't stopped it. Essentially, Jasmine was just great at planning to stay one step ahead of Angel and the others.

Even after the influence of Buffy, the First's apocalypse still resulted in the town of Sunnydale being destroyed. Sure, that was from Buffy's counterattack rather than the direct action of the First, but hey, the First Evil is all about making good people do bad things. I'd count that as a part of the First's apocalypse.

And I tend to think that the Beast's apocalypse is really a different apocalypse from that of Jasmine. Jasmine wouldn't have wanted to have the Beast in her world, destroying everything and blotting out the sun. Surely the Beast getting killed was all part of her plan, and she's glad she never had to deal with it after she entered the world in her non-Cordelia form.

[Jenni Lou]

Am I alone in thinking that the ATS season 4 apocalypse totally pwns the BTVS season 7 one, and that The First's apocalypse pales in comparison to Jasmine's? I mean, with Jasmine you've got rain of fire, the sun going out, mass mind control....whereas nothing of that scale ever happens in season 7 Buffy!

I'm with you. The massive mind control is wicked.

And I have to say, the First is lame because it relies on others to do its bidding. I mean, it's not even corporeal. At least Jasmine could reach out and suck out somebody! Whoah, that's sounded dirty.

[Vampire in Rug]

I'm undecided. If Jasmine had gotten her way, mankind would more or less be pretty happy, going about our lives spreading the gospel of Jasmine. No wars, no famine. Of course, humans would lack free will, but in thier state of bliss they wouldn't really care.

On the other hand, the First would have had the ubervamps spread outwards, siring and killing people. The world would have become a hellhole, the survivors turning against each other, always scared, always running. And who knows what the First could have done when it became corporeal.


I wonder how Jasmine would have dealt with the Beast. The rain of fire and blotting out the sun served as a nice distraction for Jasmine's true plan, but I wonder what Jasmine would have done when she was "born" from Cordy. Was the Beast a true worshiper of Jasmine or merely a pawn? I mean, thier goals seemed kinda different. The Beast seemed "true evil", wheras Jasmine was more "perverted good".

[Kold]

I wonder how Jasmine would have dealt with the Beast. The rain of fire and blotting out the sun served as a nice distraction for Jasmine's true plan, but I wonder what Jasmine would have done when she was "born" from Cordy. Was the Beast a true worshiper of Jasmine or merely a pawn? I mean, thier goals seemed kinda different. The Beast seemed "true evil", wheras Jasmine was more "perverted good".

You don't think Jasmine could have dealt with the Beast? Remember how she was only vulnerable to her earthly parents? I think it was just good planning to get rid of it beforehand, but she could have dealt with it.

I think that the Buffy apocalypse was actually an "apocalypse" apocalypse. That's what Buffy, the show, was about. Jasmine in Angel, on the other hand, was given the twist that these things always got on Angel. It was more of a moral horror, an apocalypse of the mind and soul.

Jasmine would have worn out the world until there was nothing left... but the First's apocalypse, although not quite as engaging or interesting as Jasmine's, was probably better in terms of bang.

[NileQT87]

the beast was a lackey of jasmine doing its bidding! jasmine wouldn't have wanted to get rid of it! jasmine wasn't exactly happy when angelus decided to not play the game (in other words, angelus acted on his freedom of choice).

and yeah, jasmine's world domination scheme through brainwashing actually hits historically close to evils that really have been done by humanity (a.k.a. communism... it had disastrous results, of course). taking people's freedom of choice away is a classic in the play for power. a lot of evil has been done under the cover of "world peace" (it's the basis of marxist philosophy)--the problem is is that every power hungry group has their own definition of world peace (world peace is when everybody believes the same as you do--freedom of choice is the first thing you have to get rid of).

the first... yeah, sunnydale got cratered, but it really wasn't the most well-planned domination scheme. ok, so a bunch of turok-han get released... they overrun the world... it's basically just more demons added to the population.

jasmine had the power to ENSLAVE mankind and have THEM be her army of world peace. the first was just using a lot of 'crush: good' brainless demons to run amuck. the first's greatest asset was its power of manipulation through picking apart people's weaknesses and memories. jasmine was even better at manipulation (see: "soul, soul, who's got your soul?"). the first's most successful manipulations were angel and spike--and neither completed any of what the first wanted from them. jasmine only failed because of an accident with a bloody shirt and connor giving up on having to choose between what he saw as picking between two evils. with jasmine we actually saw some of the final plan take place. the first didn't get that far.

and jasmine's happy slaves happen to be some of the most disturbing twilight zone imagery in the entire jossverse. just like some of the creepiest villains are the ones who do the creepy smiles, the absurdly happy evil is often far more scarier than the sad/horror evil.

[skinless]

The First Apocalyspe was Far greater than Jasmine's But then again Im Biased Becuz I dont like Season 4 of Angel

[sherrilina]

The First Apocalyspe was Far greater than Jasmine's But then again Im Biased Becuz I dont like Season 4 of Angel

I don't know though--I mean, maybe I'm thinking more in terms of the earlier stages of the Jasmine apocalypse, but it just seemed a lot mroe impressive than the Buffy one--I mean, rain of fire, wholesale slaughter in WH, the sun going out....all seems a lot more apocalyptic and crazy than just people feeling an "evil" presence in Sunnydale and leaving, and a few ubervamps....they don't call 4.07 "Apocalypse Nowish" for nothing, lol!

[Kold]

the beast was a lackey of jasmine doing its bidding! jasmine wouldn't have wanted to get rid of it! jasmine wasn't exactly happy when angelus decided to not play the game (in other words, angelus acted on his freedom of choice).

and yeah, jasmine's world domination scheme through brainwashing actually hits historically close to evils that really have been done by humanity (a.k.a. communism... it had disastrous results, of course). taking people's freedom of choice away is a classic in the play for power. a lot of evil has been done under the cover of "world peace" (it's the basis of marxist philosophy)--the problem is is that every power hungry group has their own definition of world peace (world peace is when everybody believes the same as you do--freedom of choice is the first thing you have to get rid of).

the first... yeah, sunnydale got cratered, but it really wasn't the most well-planned domination scheme. ok, so a bunch of turok-han get released... they overrun the world... it's basically just more demons added to the population.

jasmine had the power to ENSLAVE mankind and have THEM be her army of world peace. the first was just using a lot of 'crush: good' brainless demons to run amuck. the first's greatest asset was its power of manipulation through picking apart people's weaknesses and memories. jasmine was even better at manipulation (see: "soul, soul, who's got your soul?"). the first's most successful manipulations were angel and spike--and neither completed any of what the first wanted from them. jasmine only failed because of an accident with a bloody shirt and connor giving up on having to choose between what he saw as picking between two evils. with jasmine we actually saw some of the final plan take place. the first didn't get that far.

and jasmine's happy slaves happen to be some of the most disturbing twilight zone imagery in the entire jossverse. just like some of the creepiest villains are the ones who do the creepy smiles, the absurdly happy evil is often far more scarier than the sad/horror evil.

All that is very true, but not the point at all.
What Jasmine did was not an "apocalypse": at least, not an immediate one. If you want a clearly definable apocalypse by the good old terms, the people screaming and being overrun, and well aware that the world would be down the drain in a very short span of time, the First was doing a little better than Jasmine.

Jasmine was not after an apocalypse. Sure it would have resulted in her working the human race to extinction, but she herself was too conceited and wound up in the love that was given to her that she didn't see an apocalypse in what she caused. The First was doing an actual, real apocalypse, even if the methods were less effective.

[Nostalgia]

Yes, you are.

The First was genius.. and it the season was done a bit better.. it could have been the best season of BtVS

[sherrilina]

Yes, you are.

The First was genius.. and it the season was done a bit better.. it could have been the best season of BtVS

Lol, YOU are mostly alone in that last sentiment!

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one though--b/c I think Jasmine is more genius than The First, both as a concept and in terms of outsmarting the Scooby-type gang! And I would definitely rank season 4 ATS over season 7 BTVS....

[cheryl4ba]

If not for the wonder of Chosen, I would agree that Jasmine's arc was way better on ATS. Can't do that unless I take Chosen out of the equasion. Chosen was just brilliant.

[kana]

I think the concept of Jasmine is interesting because I find her more morally ambiguous than evil as such. Like I said, if we believe Jasmine then there are only different concepts of 'good'. She believed that happiness could only exist en masse if free will is taken away. Rightly or wrongly if she doesn't have faith in mankind enough for them not kill, rape and generally hurt each other, free will removal is the only solution.

The difference between Jasmine's world order and other apocalypses (like say Acathla's hell on earth or The Master's regime) is that people would in theory suffer less than they are now. If we take an emotional stance, then Angel's choosing pain because Free Will self defined happiness is more important to him than the warm fuzzies.

Jasmine throws up the question of the Other PTBs as others have argued, that they are too stand offish. If nothing else, Angel has at least learnt about the balance and how important free will is to him as a champion. Thematically I liked it because conceptually it rings true to life. What is good and what is evil. Is someone elses concept of good worse than our own. How can we objectively prove it outside our own principles and even if we can agree as a human race, do we necessarily know what is best for us?

[Nostalgia]

Chosen isn't even one of the top episodes of season seven..

Dead Girls, Storyteller, Selfless, and of course Conversations With Dead People are among the episodes that season four never had in comparison.

[sherrilina]

Chosen isn't even one of the top episodes of season seven..

Dead Girls, Storyteller, Selfless, and of course Conversations With Dead People are among the episodes that season four never had in comparison.

Are you kidding? Try Calvary, Salvage, Release, Orpheus, and The Magic Bullet for starters--not to mention earlier ones like Apocalypse Nowish....

And you meant Dirty Girls, I think....

[BlasterBoy]

The First actually had a plan? The First was dumb and thought he was the big scary dude. When, really, he got minions to do work cause he can't touch anything He is so menacing, with his taunts! I'm shaking in my boots and I'm afraid he might hurt me. Oh wait, he can't.

Jasmine, on the other hand, was genius. Blotting out the sun, getting pregnant in one of the gangs, having this spell to keep people loving her. The Beast, everything! It was perfect. She was incredibly smart. Some people might not like the Jasmine arc, but that still does not defeat the fact that she was genius.

About S7 vs. S4: don't get me started Nostalgia, I agree with you about Chosen. So many plot holes, too many too stand. But, I think episodes like Conversations With Dead People and Selfless are not apocalyptic, but amazing. Calvary, Salvage, Habeas Corpses, etc. Those are apocalyptic.

[ThePoet's<3]

I voted for the The First - only because I HATED Season 4 of Angel with Jasmine. I was so happy to see it over and done with.

[Chosen1]

I'm going to have to go with The First as a greater threat. Jasmine was bad, but The First was the original evil and I think that would scare me more, haha.

[major_buffy_fan]

reminder

Could someone please remind me who jasmine is in season 4 of angel is she the women who has posssessed cordilia and brings about the big beast demon guy

[Nina]

Yes, that is her. The Black lady who wanted to help people, and failed.

I don't know which one was bigger, I think the first with his ?bervamps. Jasmine wasn't direct a big danger, the first and his army were.

The First was lame and the writing around him was bad. Het was also just evil. Jasmine was a grey character, she wasn't evil ... but she did evil things. Taking away freedom is wrong, but there is no wrong in trying to save humanity.