Undeniable Chemistry - The Spuffy Shippers Union!

[Cori]

This is the spanking new thread for the Spuffy club!

Since there is already a Bangel club thread on this forum, I thought I'd start a Spuffy one here as well.

I will set up a new member list below. If you would like to become a member of this club and are not on the list, pm me and I will put your name on it.

1. Cori
2. ThePoet's<3
3. Dorian's Kitten
4. Francy
5. sherrilina
6. Ravynnia
7. Paradise
8. spike4buffy
9. some spykie ship
10. selenspuffy
11. spuffbeste
12. Nostalgia
13. Elsa
14. Enisy
15. molly13
16. missperoxide
17. SkyOfRageAndLove
18. Webbs
19. _Buffy_
20. RugidSlayer

Okay you crazy shippers, let's get the Spuffy discussion going again!

[Dorian's Kitten]

So I thought I'd start us off with some chat about our favorite Spuffy moments. Which ones do you love? Do you prefer pre-soul or post-soul? Do you like the fighting or are you a sucker for the sweet stuff? Sexy much?

I've been thinking about how much I like some of the quieter moments. The little looks and such. Potential is great for that stuff, I love Buffy and Spike training the girls. The opening scene where Buffy is worried that Spike is hurt is so sweet and I love when they exchange that knowing and amused look when they take the potentials to the bar. I think I just love the place they are relationshipwise at that point: Sweet, comfortable, romantic. I also think those scenes are the ones that really show why Spuffy could work.

[ThePoet's<3]

I like BOTH! I like the physicallity of the pre-soul moments and I like the tenderness of post-soul moments. Which I think is why both Seasons left me wanting more of the aspects of the other.

Pre-soul reminded me of how many relationships start out all hot and steamy. But as great as the sex can be there has to be a connection for the relationship itself to continue - especially for women . Which is funny to me that it is Spike who wants a "Re-LAAAAAAY-tionship" . But I found myself wanting to see them curled up in each other's arms after a great night of sex. So often you will notice that they have no moments of closeness afterwards .
Post-soul was about connecting on that level. Here's all the cuddling, tender touches, pretty words, long romantic looks into each other's eyes - but no sex.

It could have gone quite badly for Spuffy once Spike returned post-soul. But once the SEX was out of the way, it gave them a chance to connect on a deeper level as beings. And once that happened they could have just looked at each other and went - "meh - nothing there for me". But the depth of the relationship began here and that's why I think it would have been beautiful given more time.

I do hope at some point there is some kind of reunion between Spike and Buffy. It wouldn't be the dream relationship but something they could work out between them. Fight a little evil, come back for some relationship time, fight a little evil, come back for a little relationship time, etc. Either that or they give Spike a great partnership with another very powerful woman who can love him.

I 'Ship Spike more than Spuffy. But of all the relationships I liked Spuffy the best.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I
So often you will notice that they have no moments of closeness afterwards .

But didn't you get the impression that Spike wanted that from Buffy and she wasn't willing to give it. He seems to be all there for the cuddling and hanging out part. She just can't let it get that real.

I too hope there will be something more for us Spuffy fans and I too ship Spike more than Spuffy. I would be cool with him getting love from elsewhere if they would just be nice to him. (He brings out maternal-"oh poor baby" instincts for me.)

[KingofCretins]

Kitten, you know, most comic stores will offer a pull-out service

[ThePoet's<3]

Kitten, you know, most comic stores will offer a pull-out service

This is true - I got my email yesterday from the comic store I do business with that it will be available next Wednesday for me. I think as long as they know you will be a reliable and repeat customer they are happy to do business with you. They know that comic lovers hang on the next issue.

Another thing I liked about Spuffy that most people didn't like about Season 7 was how she depended on Spike so much. I know many hated that she seem to choose him over the Scoobies and Giles at times, but I when I watched it, it was more like "who here knows me most honestly"? And that seems to be Spike. At that point - as he said in Chosen - he had seen both the best and worst of her.

The Scoobies were her dear, devoted friends. But I know I have been more honest with my lovers than I have my friends. And I think sex is what makes that different. Most of us don't know our friends "that intimately".

You and your friends build a certain type of trust between yourselves that says - "I'm gonna love you know matter what." But sometimes with lovers it's more - "I'm gonna love you know matter what - and I know what matters."

[Dorian's Kitten]

First of thank you KoC, I stopped by the comic place and now have a standing in store subscription. So they will pull one and call me each issue (as though it is possible for me to not remember the day one comes out). So now I will never have to worry about them being sold out before I get there again. Ha ha ha ha (think maniacal laugh). It was also very cool for a totally non-Buffy reason. Today I used what will be my new name for the first time. I'm getting married this summer and it just seemed silly to have to change my name with the store so soon so we went with the soon-to-be-name instead.

Anyway, sorry for the super-long off topic sharing. I too love the relationship they have developed by season seven, I don't think she unfairly favors him over her friends. I know they act like she is and a lot of fans say it, but other then trusting him and not letting anyone kill him, I don't think see it. Her friends and her sister treat her badly, not the other way around. I like that he can support her in a way no one else can. At this point, she really needs to feel like someone loves her unconditionally. So many people are depending on her, she needs someone who she knows will love her even if she screws things up.

[KingofCretins]

I'm getting married this summer and it just seemed silly to have to change my name with the store so soon so we went with the soon-to-be-name instead.

Adorable. Glad I could throw you the useful knowledge about the pull-out, though. Save you some camping, and should guarantee you a first print.

[Superstition.]

Oh guys, new Buffy&Spike vid I made.

It explains how Buffy pushes her feelings for Spike away.
Hope you like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra3wGlKrpDg

[ThePoet's<3]

Today I used what will be my new name for the first time. I'm getting married this summer and it just seemed silly to have to change my name with the store so soon so we went with the soon-to-be-name instead.

Congratulations Kitten!!! What a wonderful way to "try" out that new name!!

Oh guys, new Buffy&Spike vid I made.

It explains how Buffy pushes her feelings for Spike away.
Hope you like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra3wGlKrpDg

Great Vid Sups!!! LOVED it!!!

It really incorporated what we've been discussing in the Spuffy Thread over at BW. Loved the clips from "Dead Things"!!! It was great to see our discussion coming to life in your video! She can lie to herself all she wants but her feelings for him are the TRUTH.

[Dorian's Kitten]

So, I've been thinking about why I don't bye into the whole "soul-less Spike didn't really love Buffy because he only had selfish motives" argument. It is a common position; even folks who enjoyed Spuffy frequently suggest he couldn't really love her with out the soul. But I think there are a couple of interesting episodes that suggest Spike's underlying goodness is always there, that it is simply the fact that he is a vampire and knows it (not the absence of a soul) that makes him so...why don't we go with naughty.

In Something Blue, Willow's spell makes Spike and Buffy believe that they are getting married. Everything else is their own creation. The spell didn't say that they had to be in love. They could have believed they were being forced into it. Even this early on Spike believes that if he is marrying someone they must be in love and he must try to protect her and help her friends.

Later on it can be argued that Spike is only helping her friends to get to Buffy, but here (before he even realizes that he wants Buffy) he has her and just believes that helping your girl's friends is what one does.

Later in Tabula Rasa we see who Spike is when he doesn't know. I find it unendingly interesting to see that Spike assumes he fights on the side of good. His natural inclination is be helpful.


Cut to Spike running down the street, still in game face.

SPIKE: Wait up!

He runs up to Buffy, grabs her arm. She turns, grabs his arm with her other hand, flips him over onto the ground. She kneels, straddling him and holding him down.

SPIKE: Bloody hell, what are you doing?
BUFFY: (staring at him, realizing) You don't know who you are.
SPIKE: Right, none of us do, and we're being chased by-
BUFFY: You're a vampire!
SPIKE: (shocked) How can you say - I, me, a vampire? No.
BUFFY: Check the lumpies. And the teeth.

Spike puts his hand up to his face, feels his forehead and teeth. Buffy sits up but remains straddling him. He lifts his head to look at her.

BUFFY: I kill your kind.
SPIKE: And I bite yours. (drops his hand from his face) So how come I don't wanna bite you? (Buffy frowns in confusion) And why am I fightin' other vampires?

Spike gets a look of revelation on his face, lifts himself up onto his elbows.

SPIKE: I must be a noble vampire. (Buffy looks dubious) A good guy. On a mission of redemption. I help the hopeless. (chuckles) I'm a vampire with a soul.
BUFFY: (frowning) A vampire with a soul? (beat) Oh my god, how lame is that?

Spike doesn't realize that he is trying to get Buffy here and he still doesn't feel any desire to bite her. Without the rules of the world at play, it seems that Spike would be good.

[KingofCretins]

I thought that was Spike's subconscious trying to convince him that he's Angel

I'm adopted the "reasonable people can have a civil disagreement" approach to the temp forums, so I'm back in the Spuffy thread business. I still feel I should point out that I was *about* the Spuffy for a while there, between "Intervention" and "Tabula Rasa", and he didn't have a soul. But based on subsequent events, and reconsidering prior events, I decided that he wasn't meaningfully "in love" with Buffy at that point. The only thing we have to base the idea that vampires *can* be in love on is Drusilla's saying that vampires "can love very well, but not always wisely". But... that's Drusilla. Darla and Angel and the flashbacks in Angel Season 5 "Destiny" and "The Girl in Question" suggest pretty strongly that they can't *really* be in love in any real way.

[Francy]

I. The only thing we have to base the idea that vampires *can* be in love on is Drusilla's saying that vampires "can love very well, but not always wisely". But... that's Drusilla. Darla and Angel and the flashbacks in Angel Season 5 "Destiny" and "The Girl in Question" suggest pretty strongly that they can't *really* be in love in any real way.

Darla and Angelus couldn't love, but because of who they were, not because they were vampires. James and Elizabeth from Hearthrob, on the other hand, loved each other very much, and they had for centuries. Dru is too crazy to fully love anyone, and Darla and Angelus were maybe two of the most inhumane vampires ever existed, so I think they truly weren't capable of love. But I don't base my view of all vampires on Darla and Angelus, they don't represent the whole race. All vamps are different individuals, like humans (and even animals) are. I strongly believe that, despite lacking a conscience, Spike, James and Elizabeth, and also maybe Harmony, all loved in their own way. The only thing vampires lack is a conscience...but they still have a brain, so they have feelings, like desire, fear, hate, and love.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Maybe Darla and Angel couldn't but I don't think that means Spike couldn't. Keep in mind Spike does many things that Angel wouldn't have. Spike tries to help his Mom; Angel killed his family. Spike spends decades taking care of Dru; Angel and Darla seem quite willing to ditch each other whenever it suits their own needs.

Although it is a problematic reality for Buffy, who needs to believe that when someone is vamped all that they were is gone, it seems that who someone is as a person does help create the vampire they become. Dru,for example, had the sight and the craziness before she was vamped. Angel or Liam, seemed to lack a moral compass, thus Angelus was a truly monstrous vamp. Spike had the undeniable need to be loved and the ability to love without reason or beyond it.

[KingofCretins]

Wasn't the conclusion of "Heartthrob" to undermine James and Elizabeth's notion of love, though?

Angel: "I am okay."

Cordy: "Then - what's the problem?"

Angel: "That I'm okay. That losing Buffy didn't kill me. That I could deal with it. - In all those years - no one ever mattered. Not like she did. - And now she's gone - forever."

Cordy: "And you're still here."

Angel: "Yeah. I just feel like I'm betraying her somehow."

Cordy: "No! If you were a loser, if you were some sick obsessed vampire, you'd go to a Snod demon, or whatever, and get your heart cut out. But you're not! You're a living, breathing... Well, living, anyway - good guy, whose still fighting and trying to help people, and that's not betraying her, that's honoring her."

Angel: "You think?"

Given that he stayed around Sunnydale and meant to honor her, I would have believed that he was genuinely in love with Buffy right up until he established that he didn't love who she was, he loved his gothic vision for her as someone living "in the dark... with (him)". I didn't have any trouble believing that he loved her in Season 7, but by then I couldn't see anyway it could ever be a healthy relationship for her. Of course, I feel that way about her and either vampire.

[Francy]

Wasn't the conclusion of "Heartthrob" to undermine James and Elizabeth's notion of love, though?



Given that he stayed around Sunnydale and meant to honor her, I would have believed that he was genuinely in love with Buffy right up until he established that he didn't love who she was, she loved his gothic vision for her as someone living "in the dark... with (him)". I didn't have any trouble believing that he loved her in Season 7, but by then I couldn't see anyway it could ever be a healthy relationship for her. Of course, I feel that way about her and either vampire.

But noone is saying that the love vampires feel is healthy, or that a relationship between a vampire and a human being can run smoothly....of course it's a destructive love, vampires are demons, and I don't think demons were made to be with humans (at least evil demons). At our eyes, vampires' love is twisted. But it doesn't take away the fact that to them it is love, even though we don't like that kind of love. It's the only kind of love they can feel, and it's not fair to expect from them that they can love selflessly like humans can do (and not all humans can...plenty of human beings are totally uncapable of loving anyone beside themselves). I think that Spike loved Buffy, in season 6, the best way he could. To expect something more than that from him is having unrealistic expectations.
Even with souled Spike (or souled Angel) a relationship with Buffy remains highly problematic, I agree on that.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Given that he stayed around Sunnydale and meant to honor her, I would have believed that he was genuinely in love with Buffy right up until he established that he didn't love who she was, she loved his gothic vision for her as someone living "in the dark... with (him)". I didn't have any trouble believing that he loved her in Season 7, but by then I couldn't see anyway it could ever be a healthy relationship for her. Of course, I feel that way about her and either vampire.

Well you're saying something a bit different here. Not understanding who she is is not the same as not being able to love. Even if the person he was in love with was not actually the person Buffy was, he was able to love and that was the point I was going for.

Although I actually think that he saw her pretty clearly and I don't think he was trying to change her. Yes, he wanted her to let go a bit, but he never tried to convince her not to be the slayer. She was going through dark times and he quite naturally didn't believe "the dark" was a bad place to be. If she hadn't led their relationship to the darkness, I don't think he would have. He was the one that wanted chattiness and snuggles. He was the one that came to her birthday and tried to fit in to her life.

[KingofCretins]

Even with souled Spike (or souled Angel) a relationship with Buffy remains highly problematic, I agree on that.

I wanted to kick the television through the window when she said she didn't "see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike". No kids, Buffy, means no grandkids. Any grandchildren would mean you adopted as a legally single parent, watched them have kids, and when you're in your 80s, you have this young guy that only visits you after dark.

Although I actually think that he saw her pretty clearly and I don't think he was trying to change her. Yes, he wanted her to let go a bit, but he never tried to convince her not to be the slayer.

To put it in terms covered in "Restless", "Buffy vs. Dracula", and "The Replacement", he rather wanted her to be *only* the Slayer from what I could tell. It was Buffy that he wanted her to stop being. I'm not quite sure he realized who that even was until after he assaulted her in "Seeing Red", which was enough to realize that he needed to become something else, not her.

Valid point about the talking and the party attendance (although his efforts at the party were nominal -- he did try to draw her into a party-abandoning dalliance and vaguely threaten to kill another person there).

[Dorian's Kitten]

I wanted to kick the television through the window when she said she didn't "see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike". No kids, Buffy, means no grandkids. Any grandchildren would mean you adopted as a legally single parent, watched them have kids, and when you're in your 80s, you have this young guy that only visits you after dark.

I agree that a longterm relationship is unlikely to work out. Though I feel the need to point out that Conner exists so anything is possible is the Buffyverse. But I think it is important to keep the questions: Did he love her? and Would it work out? separate.

To put it in terms covered in "Restless", "Buffy vs. Dracula", and "The Replacement", he rather wanted her to be *only* the Slayer from what I could tell. It was Buffy that he wanted her to stop being. I'm not quite sure he realized who that even was until after he assaulted her in "Seeing Red", which was enough to realize that he needed to become something else, not her.

This is an interesting thought. For a moment I was inclined to agree that Spike really only saw Buffy as "the slayer" since that was the only side of herself that she shared with him.
But I rethought that. Buffy was always different from other slayers. Having friends, being honest with them and sharing her slayerness with them, made her the different one. That's what made Buffy the slayer that changed the world. Spike knew that side of her right away. The first time he saw her she was dancing with friends at the Bronze. He spied on her many times when she wasn't slaying. He hung out with her kid sister and chatted about television shows with her mom. Spike knew the other side of Buffy, it was that side that prevented him from trying to shoot her in Fool for Love, when he found her crying on the porch. It was that side that made him let Glory torture him instead of sharing what he knew about Dawn. He wasn't just trying to help Buffy be "the slayer", he was trying to help her be a sister.

I think Spike saw something in Buffy that was very similar to what he had in himself. That ability to love despite of what they are is something they share.
Yes, Spike knows that being the slayer is a huge part of who Buffy is, but I don't think he ever made the mistake of thinking that was all she was.

[ThePoet's<3]

I'm adopted the "reasonable people can have a civil disagreement" approach to the temp forums, so I'm back in the Spuffy thread business.

So far so good I would say. I don't mind a conversation between people who as you say - can remain civil. But I don't think we need to completely abandon the rules for Ship Threads because the Forum is temporary. Reading through, this has been a very civil exchange of opinions.

So, I've been thinking about why I don't bye into the whole "soul-less Spike didn't really love Buffy because he only had selfish motives" argument. It is a common position; even folks who enjoyed Spuffy frequently suggest he couldn't really love her with out the soul. But I think there are a couple of interesting episodes that suggest Spike's underlying goodness is always there, that it is simply the fact that he is a vampire and knows it (not the absence of a soul) that makes him so...why don't we go with naughty.

I've actually been thinking quite a bit lately about self-interest and love in my own relationships. How does both self-interest and love co-exist positively in a relationship?? Back to that one...

Tabula Rasa is actually one of my favorite episodes because it's basically hitting the "reset" button on the characters and their exeriences. Reducing them all to "square one", how do their individual personalities grow from that point?

Starting with a clean slate we see Willow and Xander paired togetherin the magic shop - as they fell. Willow had a crush on Xander for years! Also at one time entertained some moments of intimacy together. Here is a prime opportunity for them to be coerced in that direction and yet they move in completely oposite directions. (the strange thing is that Xander and Anya don't move towards each other...) But Willow eventually realizes that it's Tara she prefers.

Same with Spike and Buffy. Pushing the reset button they are now reduced to vampire and Slayer. Even talking about how their roles are supposed to exist in this "world". But once again drift into a truce state between them.

Spike is who I find more interesting here because he believes he is a noble vampire. This is my point exactly. Spike has always thought of himself as "different" from other vampires. He has conducted himself many times in ways that do not support vampire "code" as you might say.

He has kept this notion about himself even as a vampire and despite that he is a vampire. Oh make no mistake he has thoroughly enjoyed the vampire side of his un-life but that is because he is a vampire. But he still seems to hold himself a little "better" than other vampires.

He even seems to exist on a different level than the vampires we have had experience with in Buffy's life. I will again bring up the nice comraderie he had with Buffy's mother. His loyalty to Dawn. His basic, "Live and let live" attitude regarding life.

Coming back to self-sacrifice and self-movtivation. There are times when I do things out of my own self-interest and out of love for the other person. I don't see the difference in gaining your soul if that's something that someone you love wants from you as being only "self-interest". The concept of Spike only wanting his soul to "get some" I don't understand. He has already "got some" so it must be more than that.

There's not a lot of difference when an addicted person's spouse tells them they want them to stop drinking. The addicted person will usually tell me they are a)going to do it for the spouse (so she/he will not leave) but b) you help them to see how this also affects their lives. (no more fights about $$, their health, employment,etc) As they recover they begin to see how more and more it's not about what the other person wants, it's about what they want. And yes - that is self-interest and it's GOOD. Because ultimately it starts there first. And recovery works best when there is a support system in place - family, friends, groups.

Spike did have a self-interest in his love for Buffy. But look at how it has turned out for him! In essence she is his support system continually spurring him on to better himself for her out of love. Again, not necessary if what he wanted was to "score" with the Slayer. Why come back with a soul?

Even as humans we can't form relationhips without a small amount of self-interest. It's the motivator that is key. Love is a strong motivator. It is the catalyst so to speak.