Who had the hardest time?

[vampmogs]

Hi

I think we had this thread back on Buffyworld but it was in the Buffy section, and since it got quite a lot of talk going I thought it'd be interesting to bring onto these forums and into a section of the site in which both Angel and Buffy characters can be talked about.

The thread is about, who do you think out of the characters had the hardest time in life? Who struggled the most, who had the most horrible things done to them, who had to deal with the most crap? Why?

In my opinion Angel has to win hands down. I'd be inclined to say Buffy because I'd say she is second, but the more I think about it, Angel really did have the hardest time. I think he pretty much trumps everybody on the "my life has sucked" list when he endured 100 years of torture. Imagine spending a 100 years, that is more than most of us will live for, being tortured. The fact he regained his character is amazing to me, and I agree with Giles it would take someone of extreme character and determination to come out of that and regain any sense of self.

If the 100 years of torture wasn't enough for anybody, I guess you could say having to give up the love of your life because you can't give them the life they deserved, remembering all the horrible things Angelus did, having your son stolen from you and loosing all those childhood plans, giving your son up and having to watch him with a new family finally being happy, spending three months under the ocean in a tiny box thanks to your son, being betrayed by the first human you tried to connect with, loosing your closest friends (Wes, Cordy, Doyle) and not being able to go out into the daylight and enjoy life pretty much shows Angel has had to deal with some serious crap.

I think other characters have been dealt some pretty bad hands as well, don't get me wrong, I especially think Buffy has had to really face some horrible crap, but the 100 years of endless torture and spending three months locked in a box under the ocean by your own son makes me think Angel has easily had it the worst out of all the characters in either show.

So who do you think has had it the worst and why?

Vampmogs

[kana]

I'd say I'd feel most sorry for Angel although it's all subjective to a degree. It's perhaps why he wasn't as sympathetic to Lindsay because he was trying to play the whole "My life sucks and that's my excuse for being evil" line.

However he was also able to understand Rebecca Lowell's plight in that everyone has their problems and to everyone, their problems are the worst problems.

Some of he problems are double edge swords as well. Angel's condition kind of made him special. Even after Spike came along it was still his mission that brought them all together.

Faith's jealousy at Buffy's stealing her birth right was also interesting. Her whole life she seems to get jack, then she gets slaying in which Buffy over shadows her as well as getting the all the perks that Slayers don't usually get, friends, family etc. However when she gets the opportunity to lead, she wonders how Buffy coped for so long.

Connor also had it pretty hard. If Jasmine was telling the truth, Connor only experienced pain in his life leading him towards his nihilism. While Angel opted for a booboo kiss instead of redemption, it gave him a chance at happiness which he still has even though he got his memories back.

Wesley didn't have a great time either especially with his father (Angel can relate), being fired from the council, being seperated from his friends trying to do the right thing, being shot, throat slit, losing Fred, twice if you count losing her to Gunn, horrible memories coming flooding back, dying at the hands of Cyvus Vail.

In short no one had it easy and it's difficult to quantify personal pain, but that said, my personal sympathy does tend to go with Angel.

[sherrilina]

Yeah, Angel did have it pretty rough, especially by the end--losing Connor, then Cordy, then Fred, etc.....so he probably does "win" as the one who had the hardest time.

Though as far as runners-up, I think Cordy gets second place--first her brain is gradually liquified by excruciatingly painful visions that are killing her, and which she cannot escape at first (I mean, at least Buffy and Angel could run away from their duties, whereas Cordy "doesn't have that luxary" as Wes says)--not to mention the time she was cursed to go mad from them in TSILA--those visions were creepy and would have been horrible to see nonstop, accompanied by the pain. Then she's trapped in her body but unable to do anything, as she watches the demon controlling her body cause mayhem and destruction all around her, killing people (how horrible would that be, chopping someone up with your own hand, against your will?), hurting the ones she loves (esp. Angel!), raping Cordy with Connor, whom she thinks of as a son (I mean, if you thought it was disturbing to watch, imagine how it was for Cordy to experience it--she was probably silently screaming "No! No! No!" in her mind the entire time), etc, before she finally falls into a coma, only to wake up mystically for one day to see her loved ones again (esp. Angel, whom she can only share one kiss with before she goes) before she finally DIES (at age 23--pretty damn young! The youngest of the Sunnydale peeps, not counting Buffy who comes back). That's a REALLY harsh fate, which I think trumps everyone else (I mean, losing your free will like that, and then dying without ever being able to go back to your old, normal life again? How traumatizing!).

Plus, she never gets to be with the love of her life (who is undisputably Angel, even if some will argue that Cordy wasn't the love of Angel's life), and only gets to share one, final kiss with him--how frustrating it must have been for her during that year (season 4) when she wanted to be with Angel, but instead was forced by Jasmine to hurt Angel with Connor instead.

And that's not even mentioning the amnesia at the beginning of season 4, or the not-so-fun end to her Sunnydale career (Xander's betrayal and her injury, being ostracized when she was once the most popular girl in school, losing it all when her dad is busted by the IRS, so that she can barely afford a prom dress, etc), or her pathetic beginning on ATS, a struggling and starving actress in a crappy flat, all alone. These things of course aren't as traumatic as some of what the other characters go through, but it's the icing on the cake of all the other stuff Cordy suffers through.

So in first place is Angel, but after Angel I think that Cordy had the hardest time, even more so than Buffy (though Buffy is not far behind!).

[KingofCretins]

I'm going to back Sherrilina here -- if we can measure who had it worst by who is the most tragic figure, one almost has to say Cordelia. I can't add much to her discussion of it.

If I was going to pick one of the vampire characters, it would actually be Drusilla.

[NileQT87]

angel. hands down. his life sucked from the day he got ensouled. or better yet, from the day liam met darla in the alley. 150 years of angelus memories can't be pleasant.

the thing about drusilla is that she doesn't have a soul, thus angel actually suffers far more from her torture than drusilla does.

angel has pretty much lost everybody he ever cared for. much worse than any other character. what's worse is he's had to go on, and on, and on, while he will eventually lose everybody.

he is by far the jossverse's most tragic character.

buffy, cordy, fred, wesley... they're also in the running.

wesley... now there's another character who suffered. like angel, his losses are often from losing people he loved or from actions he believes to be for the right reasons alienating him from those he does love. wesley particularly suffered around illyria.

fred and cordy's fates were both by losing control of their bodies and being taken over. what's worse than that? it's coming back with the bodies' new memories made in your absence. cordy got a taste of that, but angel got it a whole lot worse (again, the actions of jasmine--and most of her bad deeds were done when cordy was already conked out in a coma, rather than in cordy's body--the worst of those actions were killing lilah and cordy, herself--cordy wasn't around during the mass eatings).

angelus did significant more damage, thus angel suffers considerably more. and let's not forget that while buffy got pulled out of heaven, angel spent 100 years in a torture hell and came back feral. to put that in perspective, half the time angel's been ensouled and a little more than a 1/4 of his life was in hell. add another 3 months under the ocean without food--put there by your own son. and losing one's soul is akin to having your body taken over--especially bad when during his 150 years with darla and when he was back in sunnydale. the only damage angelus really did in L.A. was beat up faith and wesley a bit. what was bad about sunnydale in comparison to his previous terrors was that angelus attacked people whom angel cared about/knew/loved.

the saddest moments for buffy in comparison were losing angel, sending angel to hell, losing her mother, coming back from the dead and her degradation with spike.

[spuffylove147]

I think at a certain point Angel was actually a more dramatic soap opera-type show, which makes it easier I guess to see the hard lives of his characters. Which of course is true. I mean Fred had to go through 5 years as a slave 'cow' girl and it's not like things were always puppy dogs and roses for her up until her enormously tragic death.

Wesley of course went through a great deal. While being kind of a joke on Buffy, I think it was awful for him to be a joke. Then he got fired from the council, dissapointing himself and his very judgemental father. Then he goes over to Angel and is pretty much there for a lot of the time and then Fred comes along, he falls in love with her but she goes for Gunn, then she goes for Knox and when she finally gets to Wesley she dies and is replaced by a demon that he can't find it in himself to kill and then of course his enormously tragic death.

Lastly for Ats is Cordelia. Her biggest issue was the visions, then she gets all possessed and then she's in a coma and then she has an enormously tragic death.

(We all know the Angel story and it has been mentioned so I'm going to get to the point of my post)

I'm surprised that other than Buffy, people haven't mentioned many people on Buffy.

First I'm actually going to give a shout out to Oz. I get the impression with his stoicism that there is a greater story behind him then we ever know. Not to mention we know that he had sex before he had sex with Willow but he wasn't in love with whoever it was/they were. That doesn't seem like a very Oz thing to me, so i'm thinking there is more there than we think. Then of course there is becoming a werewolf, having to leave the woman you love in order to figure out how to not lose yourself to the werewolf and then coming back to find out that woman you love is now in love with a woman. Tough gig.

I think Dawn had it pretty rough too (accepts praise and dodges tomatos and various fruits). I mean first of all, though Dawn is whiney especially early on, I think we would all have difficulty grasping that no we didn't actually live our lives our memories were just thrown in our head. That must have been (and clearly was) very hard to cope with. Also I think people forget that Buffy has a strong father figure in Giles, Dawn didn't always have that and never to the extent Buffy did. Then her Mom dies, and then her sister dies and while her sister comes back, she is cold and distant and clearly unhappy. Then you have all these potential slayers and now slayers around your sister and you feel quite insignificant. Yeah i definitely think Dawn has it rough.

So I'm just going to end with Xander. I have more to say but I'll add it at a later date. In slight relation to Dawn I think Xander has had a whack load of insignificant feelings thrust at him. The speech in 'potential' while beautiful really demonstrated what he had to go through for seven years. And while he kind of screwed up both of his major relationships, the Anya thing was about his family. How hard must it have been to grow up in his house? they elude, but if he's that afraid to become his parents clearly it's quite the big deal.

Okay so I'm done now. I just wanted to show that while I believe Angel characters had it rough, Buffy characters deserve their honerable mention too.

[NileQT87]

and how could i forget holtz and connor. both of them had it pretty bad. holtz had his family murdered and was torn up to the point of going after vengeance instead of justice. and connor was raised by holtz as part of that vengeance, was used by both holtz and jasmine AND got his mind wiped (though this was, imo, a good thing). he was used and brainwashed by the powers that be. his entire birth was a scam.

whereas dawn had no childhood and was just a mystical object meant to open a hell dimension, connor had a childhood in hell and was built simply to bring something horrible. connor in comparison, also was put through much worse stuff than dawn--who was, more or less, treated like a human. connor had much more traumatic things happen. connor is definitely in the running for most tragic, along with angel, wesley, fred and cordelia.

however, besides angel, the one that always seemed the most tragic was wesley. and imo, i saw it way back in season 3 btvs... here's a guy who has everything his life has ever been about having it all taken away from him... and you can even see that early streak of wesley making hard decisions because he believes it is the right thing to do, despite it being unpopular--stealing faith. and of course, he got the brunt of faith's worst deeds. to top it off, he becomes the judas iscariot figure who has his throat slit and a friend try to kill him for something he did out of love, and then the tragic lover haunted by a demon in his lover's body. angel and wesley actually always had a lot in common in terms of their ambiguous dark natures and anti-heroicism, which is why they always stand out as being very tragic.

jenny calendar and giles is probably the most tragic thing on btvs. particularly when giles found jenny on his bed. so giles would be in the running here. tara and willow as well, especially because of how sudden. but i think jenny caused more tragedy for not only giles, but buffy who felt guilty for not killing angelus when she had the chance. though it was probably worse for angel and giles.

[alexa]

Yeah I'd also have to go with Angel. Actually he's the only character on both shows where I was complaining how he keeps having to sacrifice anything that is dear to him, not even mentioning 100 years in hell. Buffy, Doyle, Connor (for a while anyway), Cordelia, Fred, Wesley, Shanshu.. I'm sure I've left something out.
There isn't really any other character which I thought had too hard of a time, besides Wesley, and then Cordelia and Fred being killed off.. although the show still worked really well despite that.
Buffy and Willow are also up there as well. But I have to say that their problems seem more realistic and recoverable to me.

[sherrilina]

Aw KoC, nice to see we agree on something!

cordy got a taste of that, but angel got it a whole lot worse (again, the actions of jasmine--and most of her bad deeds were done when cordy was already conked out in a coma, rather than in cordy's body--the worst of those actions were killing lilah and cordy, herself--cordy wasn't around during the mass eatings).

Not true at all--not only did she kill Lilah, but Jasmine!Cordy also slit the blonde sacrifice's throat in Inside out and hacked apart Manny (while naked too no less!) and the Svea priestesses and their children in an even more bloody way than simply stabbing them in the neck like Lilah! I can't imagine what that must be like, killing someone like that, hacking at them with an axe, while unable to do anything about it. Plus she tried to kill Willow and Angel (or send Connor to kill the latter) and was responsible for all the thousands of death caused by the Beast, ordered by the demon in her. All that carnage in Habeus Corpses? Happened while Cordy was aware of it, but unable to stop it. And being raped by the closest thing you have to a son (and seducing him against your will no less) couldn't have been a picnic either! Honestly, I think Jasmine was did worse, more terrible things before she was born and Cordy was conked out than afterwards--I mean, besides eating a few people, all she did was try to bring world peace--by slavery, which admittedly was pretty awful--but as far as really horrific and bloody deeds, those are all mostly done before Cordy goes into the coma--which is what makes Peaceful and Beautiful!Jasmine so especially surprising...

I'm not saying that Angel didn't have it worse--he did overall, though I think you underplay the crimes Cordy had to do while Jasmine was controlling her here....

[vampmogs]

jenny calendar and giles is probably the most tragic thing on btvs. particularly when giles found jenny on his bed. so giles would be in the running here. tara and willow as well, especially because of how sudden. but i think jenny caused more tragedy for not only giles, but buffy who felt guilty for not killing angelus when she had the chance. though it was probably worse for angel and giles.

I'd say Buffy had it harder than Giles and Jenny in Btvs. Buffy had the weight of the world on her shoulders throughout high school and into adulthood. She couldn't live a normal life, couldn't have the normal high school moments other kids got to have and basically became a social outcast because of something she never chose to have happen to her. She died twice, was faced with physical violence on a nightly basis, fighting for her life constantly, her life was altered unwillingly by monks, she was nearly raped, torn out of haven, found her mother dead on the sofa, had to take care of her sister and work in a crappy job amongst other things. I think she had it a lot harder than anyone other than Angel IMO, though I can see why some people say Cordy was up there as well.

[NileQT87]

yeah... that annoys me (people constantly saying that cordy/connor was incestuous). cordy is NOT connor's mother. never was, never will be. that was darla. it wasn't incest. cordy might have never ever wanted to sleep with angel's son, but there were no familial relations. she might have felt motherly, but only darla can claim to be the mother (yes, i'm sticking up for darla here). and connor has a thing for older women. he NEVER knew or saw cordy as being motherly or his mother. he knew his mother to be darla--a dead vampire. cordy was just among angel's many friends--no different to him than lorne, fred, gunn and wesley. what is important is that he didn't see cordy as being motherly.

also, he had a full childhood (unlike dawn). as far as he's concerned, he grew up for 17 years in quar'toth with a father named holtz. he had full memories of that growing up and it wasn't just implanted in his head. he never grew up with cordy ever in a motherly capacity.

and yes, i realize evil-cordy killed some people beyond lilah... gave some orders. however, she didn't directly kill the lawyers in w&h... the blonde virgin, manny, the svear family and lilah were hers though. essentially, cordy's body takeover was akin to angelus' non-soul-removing takeover in eternity. there, but not in control. but jasmine's worst killing sprees were done by the beast (the temple of flesh/w&h) and herself (eating people and turning L.A. into meat puppets). in fact, cordy was just one more meat-puppet to her.

cordy pretty much was conscious for a day before she died--and she never woke up from her coma. what was in you're welcome wasn't even her--it was basically a ghost. we can't even be sure if anybody but angel remembers that cordy briefly made an appearance, despite the interaction. a bit like the connor situation of him being totally erased and new memories overtaking the place of other actions.

the longer-lasting side of the cordy/connor thing actually rests with connor. he's the one who went on (and never saw cordy as a mother).

one of dawn's lines was "the hardest thing in this world is to live in it"... which sums up why angel's life sucks so much more. he just keeps going on and on and on, while he loses everyone he loves. everybody is finite but him (and spike, illyria, etc...), but the difference is he really cares about the people he loses and he loses them so frequently. and then there's the amends speech... going on is harder than dying, but angel has to go on because there is so much good he can do.

[Bittersweettwit]

For me it has to be Buffy and frankly I am surprised that no one has said it before though I certainly would place Angel at a close second. There are a number of reasons why I would go for this choice. As Vampmogs said throughout the duration of her high school years and beyond Buffy has had the weight of the world on her shoulders. She lost all of her friends at her old school and was eventually treated as an outcast. Eventually she ended up being expelled from her school and forced to move to a completely new location simply because she was doing the right thing which doesn't sound like much, but Its gotta suck.

Then there are the events which occurred in Prophecy Girl that has made it just that bit harder for her. Buffy was told that she was destined to die at the hands of the master and despite her initial denial and wish to run away Buffy found the inner strength to go through with it even though she thought that this was going to be her last night alive. Then she dies for several moments and is only saved by the fact that she has a friend who knows CPR how emotionally trautisiming and hard must that have been for Buffy?.

There are also several events in Season 2 of Buffy that prove that she has had the hardest time. There is firstly the loss of Angel's fact. Imagine how hard it must have been and how bad she must have felt being aware of the fact that Angel had lost his soul, that she had endangered the world simply through sex and the fact that this occurred after her first time isn't exactly an ego booster. How about Beginning Part 2? How about having to sacrifice the one that you love to save the world? How do you think that she must have felt plunging that sword into Angel while talking to him and telling him that everything was going to be OK?

Then the next big thing happens in S5 is in the episode No Place like Home. Buffy had to go through with finding out the knowledge that her sister the person that she grew up with, the person that she loved wasn't real. Her memories, her feelings up until that point none of it was real all of it was simply fake inserted by a set of monks. Then she found out that she had to protect her sister from a foe someone who wanted to do unspeakable things to her. How about being told that "Death was her Gift" though we the viewer knew that the spirit guide was referring to her sacrifice for Dawn imagine having to carry around the knowledge for several moments, if not the rest of her life that her main gift in life was Death?

Then there's Buffy sacrifice itself. She had to choose to willingly die to save her younger sister and the world. Then imagine the agony that she must have felt between those moments after she had jumped into the portal and her death. However it doesn't end there for Buffy after several months of being in Heaven, of bliss. Her friends of all people drag her back into the world, imagine having to go through the pain that she had to, every second feeling like it dragged having the world around you seem like it was hell and all she wanted to do was leave it. Then there's the attempted rape how must Buffy have felt having to endure such an experience and at the hands of someone whom she genuinely felt for even if what she felt wasn't love?

As well as all of that what about the other stuff that Buffy has had to go through? The death of her mother? Having her best friend turn on her and have to fight against her? Losing Spike? So yes I think it is safe for me to say that of all characters in the Buffy verse. Buffy herself has had the hardest time and if not she definitely should be ranked right up in the top.

[sherrilina]

yeah... that annoys me (people constantly saying that cordy/connor was incestuous). cordy is NOT connor's mother. never was, never will be. that was darla. it wasn't incest. cordy might have never ever wanted to sleep with angel's son, but there were no familial relations. she might have felt motherly, but only darla can claim to be the mother (yes, i'm sticking up for darla here). and connor has a thing for older women. he NEVER knew or saw cordy as being motherly or his mother. he knew his mother to be darla--a dead vampire. cordy was just among angel's many friends--no different to him than lorne, fred, gunn and wesley. what is important is that he didn't see cordy as being motherly.

I know that Cordy isn't physically Connor's mother--but from what we see on the show it's clear that Cordy saw CONNOR as a son at least (families can be built without actual blood ties--look at Team Angel itself), and THAT is what I was referring to--HER feelings about the matter, not Connor's! And so I think she would be horrified to be forced to sleep with Connor when he is the closest thing SHE ever has to a son (even if Connor doesn't see her as a mother).

And I haven't seen season 5 in a while, but what were the reactions of the Fang Gang when Angel tells them about the vision of the Circle of the Black Thorn he got from Cordy when she kissed him? B/c he did mention Cordy's kiss and passing on the vision to him to the other characters, so if they weren't confused and acting surprised and full of wonder, then I would guess that they DO remember Cordy's supernatural visit.

And yes, she was "conscious" for one day--one day, knowing she only has one day to set things right and see/say goodbye to her loved ones one more time. That's pretty harsh and sad--I can't imagine being in such a situation, where I knew I had only one more day to live, but couldn't tell anyone (except Angel kind of at the end).

But even if she technically never woke up, that was still Cordy--we don't know whether she woke up and then time folded or the hospital people's memories were re-written (like a Dawn kind of thing) or not--we never learn exactly what was going on in YW, but in any case it was the true, real Cordy.

I do agree though that overall Angel probably suffered the most, just b/c he lives forever, which means he'll see the people he loves grow old and die time and time again, while he still remains. I would never want to be immortal (hypothetically speaking of course) for that very reason! Plus, seeing the world change, and not always for the better....it's got to suck!

[vampmogs]

I know that Cordy isn't physically Connor's mother--but from what we see on the show it's clear that Cordy saw CONNOR as a son at least (families can be built without actual blood ties--look at Team Angel itself), and THAT is what I was referring to--HER feelings about the matter, not Connor's! And so I think she would be horrified to be forced to sleep with Connor when he is the closest thing SHE ever has to a son (even if Connor doesn't see her as a mother).

Did she though? I think I remember Cordy spending some time with baby Connor and calling herself 'Aunty Cordy.' From memory the only time we've really ever been told Cordy was like a mother to Connor was when Angelus said it was like Connor banging the closest thing he had to a mother. I'm not so sure either Connor or Cordy saw it this way though.

And I haven't seen season 5 in a while, but what were the reactions of the Fang Gang when Angel tells them about the vision of the Circle of the Black Thorn he got from Cordy when she kissed him? B/c he did mention Cordy's kiss and passing on the vision to him to the other characters, so if they weren't confused and acting surprised and full of wonder, then I would guess that they DO remember Cordy's supernatural visit.

Yeah I am pretty sure they remembered. Angel says "It all started with a kiss" and then we see a flashback of Cordy kissing him and giving him a one shot deal of passing on her visions. Wes then says "Cordelia gave you her visions" with little surprise other than she had done this, not that she'd been at Wolfram and Hart like she was.

And yes, she was "conscious" for one day--one day, knowing she only has one day to set things right and see/say goodbye to her loved ones one more time. That's pretty harsh and sad--I can't imagine being in such a situation, where I knew I had only one more day to live, but couldn't tell anyone (except Angel kind of at the end).

I actually think Cordy was pretty at peace with the whole thing. She says it isn't her anymore, that she has to take a different road and whilst a little sad, I don't feel like she felt she was cheated.

[cheryl4ba]

It's a toss up for me, between Angel and Buffy. Angel may have a slight edge if for no other reason than he has been dealing with his crap hand in life for longer.
Both of these characters have sacrificed everything for the world they protect and neither of them have received much in return. Being stipped of everything you hold dear over and over is something they hold in common.

The other characters have also suffered but unlike Buffy and Angel, they can walk away anytime they want. The fate of the World isn't riding upon their shoulders.

[NileQT87]

connor grew up thinking his mother was justine, not cordy. cordy called herself "aunty cordy", just like the others were "aunt fred", "uncle wes", "uncle lorne" and "uncle gunn". there was no mother context until angelus decided to make an oedipal connotation to it out of hurt. angelus' entire evil works on taking little bits of truth and wrapping them up in hurtful lies... telling the truth in a way that becomes a lie because of context.

connor shouldn't be dating people who are babies when he grew up to be 17 years old--and he has a thing for older women. just like dawn is going to date people who are close to her physical age, rather than those born when the monks created her. ironically, they are a perfect match for each other. the big difference is that connor actually lived a full childhood with holtz--there was nothing fake about it--in fact, holtz always told him who his real parents were. that is why connor considered holtz and justine to be his 'real' parents and angel and darla just to be his biological parents. cordy was only ever a friend of his biological father's to him... at best, cordy saw herself as an honorary aunt because there was nobody but angel's friends to take the role of "aunts" and "uncles". it's a bit like the term "godfather"--there isn't actually any biology involved. what is important was who cordy and connor saw themselves as, not who angelus and others saw them as. if anybody was baby connor's main babysitter, it was lorne.

not to mention, in season 4, connor was 18 years old and cordy was only 21 years old (may 22, 1981). actors' ages aside (vincent was born in 1979 and charisma was born in 1970--they are only 9 years apart), the characters' ages are actually 3 years apart. granted, that creates a funny split between david and vincent that is only 10 years difference. there's a bigger split between james and sarah (15 years). so, despite it being hard to confuse charisma for a 21 year old in season 4 ats, that was how old the character was supposed to be and that needs to be considered here.

[kana]

Well Angelus may have said it but it ws implied other people were thinking about it particularly Fred. Lorne interupted her when she was about to say it would like sleeping with your own son.

Wes is the most sympathetic seen as he knows what it's like to feel drawn to someone based upon mutual lonliness. Fred seemed very firm in her view that it would be too weird but I suppose this is what added to their estrangment. Wes could believe that Connor and Cordy could find solice in each other especially when if they were feeling alone.

[sherrilina]

Well Angelus may have said it but it ws implied other people were thinking about it particularly Fred. Lorne interupted her when she was about to say it would like sleeping with your own son.

Lol, I was just about to bring that up! Yes, as kana says, it's not just Angelus saying it--sweet, good guy Fred also thought the same thing, and she of course wasn't trying to twist things around to cause pain! And Cordy may have called herself Aunty Cordy but....she still could have felt motherly tendencies towards the child (though she wouldn't say that out loud of course, that'd be weird since Darla is the physical mother, etc). The way we see her taking care of baby Connor the most, all those scenes in Provider and elsewhere, her particular relationship with Angel (in contrast to Fred), certainly put her as the biggest "mother" role to Connor than anyone else (to the extent that Fred thought her sleeping with Connor would be like sleeping with your own son).

I don't think her saying "Aunty Cordy" (when she wouldn't want to be saying "mommy" out of respect to Angel, no matter what her feelings on the matter really were) proves anything--even biologically speaking if an aunt is raising a child b/c the parents were killed or something, are you saying they wouldn't ever think of that child as their own, even though they're referred to by the title of aunt? As far as we know, Cordy DID see Connor as a son, which would be what mattered as far as the point I was trying to make. And even if she thought of him as a nephew, I think she still would be grossed out/traumatized by what she would have perceived as incest--and by the fact that she's being raped period!

And how do you know who Connor's biggest baby-sitter was NileQT? There's nothing to indicate that Lorne necessarily spent any more time than Cordy baby-sitting--the person besides Angel whom we see holding the baby the most is Cordy....

[NileQT87]

uh, actually, the person we see around the baby the most besides angel is lorne. cordy babysat in one episode (provider), but lorne--i can think of at least 2 episodes (waiting in the wings, sleep tight). and technically, wesley had permission to even babysit connor. does that make him fatherly? no, it makes him one of those honorary uncles. it seemed to me that lorne was the one getting a lot of the babysitting duties (he was rarely out in the field fighting--whereas cordy often went out)... which is why lorne was so hurt by teen-connor calling him a "filthy demon". lorne was probably around connor the most besides angel (in fact, it was lorne who pretty much showed angel how to care for a baby). cordy did a lot of holding, though--but lorne wasn't exactly a fighter for angel and did what he does best--sing lullabies and do rat pack shows with stuffed animals (lorne also mentioned changing diapers). cordy was with all of them--an honorary family member.

darla was the biological mother. justine was the one connor considered to be his mother. cordy was just one of angel's friends and the girl his father liked. he never considered her to be a mother the way he considered darla and justine.

fact is--they all called themselves aunts and uncles. there was only angelus trying to twist hurt and fred feeling that cordy had a familial bond with connor--as they ALL did. if it had been fred taken over sleeping with connor, they'd have all been having the same reaction. she's like family.

remember... there's only 3 years difference between cordy and teen-connor.

[sherrilina]

darla was the biological mother. justine was the one connor considered to be his mother. cordy was just one of angel's friends and the girl his father liked. he never considered her to be a mother the way he considered darla and justine.

Did he? I know that was the original plan, but it seems like Holtz didn't follow through with it--hence Connor telling Justine that Holtz had told him about the farm--where he and Holtz ALONE were supposed to live together--which implied that Holtz had never even told him about Justine, or certainly not that they were going to all live together. Where do you get the idea that Justine was like a mother to Connor from?

And again, what does it matter if he never considered Cordy to be like a mother to him? I never argued that he did--as I keep saying, I'm only arguing it from CORDY's perspective (while she was being raped), Connor's POV on the matter is irrelevant.

fact is--they all called themselves aunts and uncles. there was only angelus trying to twist hurt and fred feeling that cordy had a familial bond with connor--as they ALL did. if it had been fred taken over sleeping with connor, they'd have all been having the same reaction. she's like family.

remember... there's only 3 years difference between cordy and teen-connor.

Well than why would Fred start to say "like sleeping with your own son" rather than "with your own nephew" or something like that?

And again, why is it at all relevant that there's only an age diff of 3 years between Cordy and teen!Connor? Cordy best knew Connor as a baby (or at least, that's her first big impression of him)--THAT is what matters--are you telling me that if you had known someone as a baby and then suddenly they're only 3 years younger than you, you would think nothing of a relationship with them and not at all think of them in terms of their original age?