"Buffy's Boys" -- Ultimate Showdown Control Test

[KingofCretins]

I thought I'd introduce this poll as a topic to determine the 'ultimateness' of the Ultimate Showdown. The point here is explicitly *not* to debate Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike, but rather to place those 'ships in perspective against the rest of the fandom.

[NileQT87]

with angel... or heck, just make it a threesome and all the bangels and spuffies will be happy.

i like epic stories... most of the humans just aren't nearly as epic.

as for the human choices... i'd rather have giles (which she'd never go for) than xander or riley. i can say that much.

the "vampire in love with a slayer" irony was a beautiful thing. those were the best stories on btvs, by far. "it's not about right. it's not about wrong. it's about power." pretty much sums it up. the epic mythic story lines were the power of the show. no bangel, the show probably wouldn't have made it into the second season. and the second season would have been a whole lot duller without the forbidden romance/angelus plot line. without angel, i really don't think btvs would have made it. the demonology was based around him, same with the vampire rules... the whole vampire with a soul thing was CRUCIAL for how vampires were looked at in the 'verse--besides angel and spike.

it's one thing for buffy to have her scoobies, but that wasn't what made the story early on. that's not where the depth was coming from. angel, spike and darla probably had the most depth going on of all the characters. anya had a lot of missed opportunities because they mostly were using her for comic relief, except for selfless. as for humans, the only one to truly measure up to the characters (particularly the vampires) who had significant backstories was wesley. he was the only human to have enough character growth and depth to measure up to even angel and spike. giles had glimpses of it, but not as much as wesley. willow was done well in season 6, but her arc in season 7 was a total cop-out.

as for who buffy clearly has in her heart--well, that's angel and spike.

buffy's most selfless moments... that was early buffy. angel brought out the best in buffy, imo.

without the vampire boyfriend thing, i don't think buffy would be half the show it became, because its not the friends fighting monsters that made the show a greek tragedy. they were excellent plot devices for the 'verse to create itself. they added a strong sense of moral ambiguity, that through them, could rub off on other characters, but they pretty much did lead the plots for most of the show(s). buffy, in many ways, was a reflection of whoever she was with, because whoever she was with usually was the device pushing the plot forward (even riley). otherwise, you'd have a lot more creature of the week episodes.

[KingofCretins]

None of the parenthetical options are exclusive, they are just examples. If you are a hard core Buffy/Owen 'shipper, you choose the second option, just as Buffy/Giles or Buffy/Clem or Buffy/Willy or Buffy/Tucker.

Basically this is Spike and Angel vs. the field, with the field subdivided into different groups.

Personally, I hate to see Buffy throw her life away on one of the vampires. Epic out of context though they may be, both relationships run afoul of what we know that Buffy has always wanted -- to hold on to her humanity amidst being a Slayer, to have the things that 'normal' people have. She's a bit like Piper from "Charmed" that way.

For Buffy, that has in the past meant proms and being homecoming queen and having a year book photo. Eventually, it's likely to mean thinking about children and other aspects of *human* romance that would be manifestly excluded by being with Spike or Angel.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I put someone new, though for the immediate future, by herself seems a good plan. Ideally I'd like her to meet someone say...two years after Chosen? With a few flings along the way. As she says in Older and Far Away...no good in being one of those people who can't make new friends outside their tight little circle. Exogamein baby! If that's how you spell it. Getting it on with people outside the tribe, I mean.

[Pandora's_Box]

I said a new person, cause if Buffy were real and a friend or family, I wouldn't think Angel or Spike would be good for her for all the good reasons The Mayor gave in "Choices". I don't really see any other on the show she could get along with, although I really like the idea of her and Andrew . No girl because...Buffy's not a lesbian!! And all by herself, maybe before Chosen, but now there is a thousand of slaers so I see no reason for her to be left alone.

[selenspuffy]

'Angel, or Spike' option is what I'd choose certainly. And I'd say Spike personally. I mean Spike&Angel are the two guys, which were ready to do anything, even die for Buffy _for real_ I dont actually believe that any other man would do such a thing -for their love for Buffy- . I dont want to discuss about Spike or Angel?, but one of them should be, cuz only they deserve it imo

[kana]

I'll pledge for a cookie dough option. I have no idea who Buffy should end up with, it really depends on what she wants or thinks she needs. People want different things at different times. In a few years it may not be about the vampires.

Finding herself could be a solo thing or she could date someone whilst finding herself (someone enjoying cookie dough), however I sort believe that Buffy isn't the casual fling type, at least in the series she seemed a girl who prefers affirming relationships to boytoys.

If Buffy were to end up with a female, I believe it would be because she connects with them on some level and she would question a little about what it means (based upon character history). While it's possible I don't believe Buffy would simply experiment with her sexuality, simply for curiosity sake but hey, you never know...

Also NileQT87, you will have PM.

[Zack]

with angel... or heck, just make it a threesome and all the bangels and spuffies will be happy.

...and we have a winnah! Since I didn't see the and portion of Spike and/or Angel, I chose being by herself - there was never really an extended period where she had a romantic/sexual relationship with a guy during the show and I am of the opinion that she should really find out who *she* is as a person before she shares herself with someone else, whoever that may be. Rather than defining her existence, I'd love for it to supplement herself (much like how her Slayerness took a less important role since there were thousands) so that she can ultimately be just Buffyrather than Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Buffy, the slayer who fell in love with (a) vampire(s).

[Sid]

Really don't see long term Bangel or Spuffy being a good idea. In fact, I always thought part of the appeal of those ships is that it was already doomed from the beginning. Then again, perhaps some people find the image of Angel devoted to an 80 year old dying Buffy cute or romantic or whatever. There's also the "shanshu" option for either one of the vampires, but "I'm human now and we can be together for the rest of our lives" is all types of suck, personally. And it's not even all that interesting.

Also, I've noted that both Angel and Spike are always ten times cooler when they're not involved with Buffy in some way. Noting the differences in how Angel acted when he was with her and how he acted when he moved away is flooring. I still to this day consider BtVS Angel one of my most hated characters, and AtS Angel one of my favorites. You have to be, like, the biggest sparkly fangirl ever to have enjoyed Angel more with Buffy than on his own. I do admit that Bangel was a huge part of making the show successful, but now that it's over, there aren't many pros in bringing it back, other than grouping them together for the hell of it.

Same goes for Spike. He lost a lot of the flavor and humor in seasons 6-7 that he flourished with in seasons 2 and 4. And I honestly do believe that (especially now that Spike has a soul and is evidently doing the hero thing) both vampires' lives are more meaningful without Buffy. Unlike a lot of people, I think that Spike on season 5 of AtS was the return of everything I always loved about the character, and when I look at the chemistry between him and Angel, I really do NOT think he was out of place whatsoever. I even got into him socializing with characters other than Angel, but I digress...

One of the things that really slays me when I go back and watch season 1 and 2 BtVS episodes is how important Xander's role was looking to be, and how people have pretty much forgotten about that at around the same time the writers did. He's rarely considered for anything above others, and it's consistently annoying. I don't see why he couldn't revert back to his attraction of Buffy, and why she couldn't reciprocate this time. It's fresh yet at the same time back-to-the-beginning-ish, and it'd make for quite the interesting/potentially long term pairing. It'd be justice, too, unless I'm the only person who felt as though the Xander in the early episodes was meant to end up with Buffy.

[BlasterBoy]

Well, I have to say by herself. She is a much better character when she's by herself, imo.

My favorite Buffy was early Season 3 and 4! She was just so at ease with herself and calm, and just herself! She wasn't being tortured by boyfriends that destroyed her life, basically.

If I had to choose SOMEONE, it would be Xander or Riley, because at least she would be semi-happy with them. She already was happy with Riley, but then it went downhill So, one of those two if anybody.

[ThePoet's<3]

I said someone new (feels fellow Spuffy's rummaging in my wallet for Spuffy Membership Card back...) only because - I think Spike deserves someone "better". (LOL! I almost said Buffy should be "by herself". LOLOLOL!!! ) But I will support what Spike wants...and if it's Buffy - well she just better not break his heart!

[Veverka]

Well, I'm far from oposed to a little bit of Fuffy now and then, and Wuffy for experimentation's sake, sure. But at the end of the day, I think Buffy's straight, I really do. And I think Angel and Spike both had their moments... but somehow, outta no-where, I became a bit of a Bander shipper... not sure where it came from... just: that's what I think, for the future-y-ness .

[alexa]

Hmm.. this is hard because I have several ways of thinking about this. In the end I'd love her to end up with a human Angel, but I don't see that happening anytime soon..

I'd settle for Xander as well, the Bander idea is really growing on me, plus it would make for some interesting stories.

But then again I think Buffy (the show, not just the character) works best when she's on her own, or at least just as well in a different way. I don't buy into the Angel or Spike brings out the best in her. Buffy is the best heroic character ever written so far in my opinion, she doesn't always need a love interest. And that statement doesn't hold much cred on a Buffy fan forum, but I've done half a thesis on BtVS, I know what I'm talking about

[NileQT87]

if i had to pick a human love-interest that wasn't angel shanshued (lol)...

i'd pick (get ready for the bizarre choice): OLIVER PIKE!

i seriously think joss ought to bring back pike into the comics.

[alexa]

if i had to pick a human love-interest that wasn't angel shanshued (lol)...

i'd pick (get ready for the bizarre choice): OLIVER PIKE!

i seriously think joss ought to bring back pike into the comics.

lol, yes he was kinda cute! I remember when I was 17 and it first aired I liked them together ... but that was before the Angel episode That's so funny that I remember that.
I'd still be able to get into Xander more though.

Buffy: Owen
Owen: Buffy
Xander: Xander

[Dorian's Kitten]

Had to go with the Angel and /or Spike option in hopes of it being AND!

But I have to admit Oliver Pike would be excellent. Joss should totally bring him back, but then somebody is going to have to point out (based on this new understanding of her first romance) that Spike was clearly her type all along: Compact yet muscular frame, pretty face, leather jacket, bad boy persona covering soft heart. ooh and the motorcycle!

[Enisy]

Spike/Buffy is my OTP, although I wouldn't be opposed to Spike/Buffy/Angel. Either way, I think Spike had a point in that Buffy needs some monster in her man.

[KingofCretins]

Yes... his point was to rationalize his desire to be with her.

I'm pleased to see it's, so far, barely a majority that would call the Spike/Angel debate the definitive one for Buffy's love life. I wish there was a way to control for the likelihood that preference to one of the 'devout' 'ships is more common amongst contributers to a fan site than amongst the general audience, since I would still guess the raw number amongst fans generally would be closer to 30 or 40%

Honestly, I have a hard time reconciling wanting Buffy to be with a vampire with even *liking* Buffy. In a literal reading of the show... they're vampires! In a metaphorical reading of the show... vampires never really correlate to the most upstanding members of our society. I'd never counsel someone into a potentially abusive relationship, for instance, because I think 'she needs some monster in her man'. *Nobody* does. I don't like to read the relationships on these shows in the context of romantic escapism and fantasy, though. I like the very realistic characters to be in relationships that would, in real life, be worth being in. To me, this precludes her being with Angel or Spike.

[sueworld]

I like the very realistic characters to be in relationships that would, in real life, be worth being in. To me, this precludes her being with Angel or Spike.

Oh dear you must have found quite a few seasons of Buffy to be a hell of a disappointment then!

As far as the whole Buffy/vamps attraction goes, I think it's logical really. She's a Slayer. Part demon as it now turns out from the info we got in season 7, so there's bound to be some kind of attraction there whether she realises it or not.

Also as Riley found out, she's a powerful women with powerful 'needs' that might snap an ordinary bloke like a twig if she wasn't careful. She can just let herself go with a vampire..on all levels.

[KingofCretins]

That presupposes that Buffy needs a vampire/demon relationship for total fulfillment and than uses the fact that she had those relationships to prove it.

If there was some element of being the Slayer that compelled her to need a vampire, there would be some history of Slayers giving in to that previously -- there's no evidence of this, and from the very first season, Giles at least reacts to it as an unprecedented idea. Likewise, we know that Kendra found the idea repellant, and that Faith (by far the most sexually adventurous Slayer we've met) was more than content with what humans had to offer -- her interest in Angel in "Enemies" seemed to have much more to do with Buffy than with Angel.

As for Buffy personally, I still don't buy it. There has *never* been *anything* in canon to support the theory that Riley and Buffy's problems had anything to do with her needing 'monster in her man' -- there was just Spike being a prick to Riley along those lines. That doesn't tell us anything about what Buffy or Riley feels. We know that Riley wasn't truly intimidated by Buffy being the Slayer. The only time he had a problem was in "Out of My Mind", and he was under some pretty considerable influences. Riley and Buffy failed to connect in a very human way, in that she didn't open herself emotionally to him like he did to her, which has nothing to do with him not being a vampire. That she enjoyed sex with Riley goes without saying.

And, it's worth noting that in "As You Were", Buffy was obviously in a "Spike who?" place from the time Riley showed up in the Doublemeat to the time when his wife showed up. She never even heard of Spike when she thought she could try to get back together with him. What does that do to the notion that it has to be a monster and not a man for Buffy?