"All rugged and handsome and brains ... ": The Wesley Appreciation Society

[The_Narrator]

Wesley Wyndham-Price:
Stuffy, repressed Watcher, rogue demon hunter, helper of the innocent, leader of AI, dark and broody vigilante, member of W+H.

Wes goes through so many changes that the difference between him in S3 Buffy and in S5 Angel is almost unrecognisable, and yet the changes are completely believable. Wes faces some of the hardest decisions anyone in the Jossverse has to - how to deal with Faith, whether to let the Mayor kill Willow or not, whether to take Connor from Angel. But he is a very flawed man too - his 'dark' phase in Season 4, trying to be with Fred when she was already seeing Gunn etc. And of course, his dashing, rugged good looks! I myself am a fan of the female form, but I think I could make an exception for S4 bearded, shotgunned Wes - he'd be my 'never intimate ... except that one time'

So, what do you think of Wes? Is his 'bigger picture' vision enough to justify his sometimes callous behaviour (e.g. allowing the soldiers in Pylea to die in order to create a distraction)? Can you forgive him for taking away Connor? Was the change in his character between Angel Seasons 1-3 believable? What do you make of the bad relationship he has with his father? And his relationships with Lilah and Fred?

Join here to share in your appreciation of Wesley!

Members:
-The_Narrator
-Wolfie Gilmore
-sherrilina
-vampmogs
-Cordelia_Chase
-sueworld
-NileQT87
-kanga
-alexa
-Vampire In Rug
-Nina
-kana
-LaJaula
-kudagirl
-Boltmaiden
-

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Count me in

Wesley is The Sexy of the Angel chaps, absolutely. I think he's often incredibly wrong-headed and emotionally stunted, but that's part of hte appeal of the character - his flaws make him rounded and human, and just a little bit helpless. He's not an action hero, but he slowly and painfully teaches himself to be one, constructing an identity to cover his quivvering innards, poor little lamb. The episode when he pretends to be Angel is one of my favourite - it sums up so much about the best aspects of that show's treatement of what it means to be male, what it means to be a hero...and the expectations others place on us.

His relationship with his father is beautifully done...you almost forget that we've never seen them on screen together. All we get of Wes and his real father is one telephone call in season 5, and even then we only hear one side of the conversastion! Lineage, for all its stupid plotting (what WERE those cyber ninjas about anyway???), is very powerful...showing Wes's relationship with his "father" to be just as raw and unsettling as it ever was, even though he's developed a tough veneer. The way he switches back into pratfall mode, knocking things over and getting things wrong, is heartbreaking.

EDIT: This thread inspired me to write a little ficlet about Wesley. Thanks

[The_Narrator]

In the episode with the psychic Bethany, and Wes guesses her father abused her ... a bit too much knowledge to not be speaking from experience? I imagine he wasn't sexually abused, but certainly humiliated as a child. The phone call to his dad shows him being deeply embarassed whilst speaking to him, and like you said, it's heartbreaking watching strong, hero Wesley turn into mumbling, inferior Wes in a matter of seconds.

Is his 'hero' status deliberately self constructed? Or is it 'just' from being around Angel and helping people for so long a la Cordy (unless you think otherwise re Cordy?!)? There's definitely a desire to be accepted by people there, but then Wes has always been focused on priorities - although in S1 I think he half wants to go back to the Council, he choses Angel over them, as he is doing more good, for example.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

In the episode with the psychic Bethany, and Wes guesses her father abused her ... a bit too much knowledge to not be speaking from experience? I imagine he wasn't sexually abused, but certainly humiliated as a child. The phone call to his dad shows him being deeply embarassed whilst speaking to him, and like you said, it's heartbreaking watching strong, hero Wesley turn into mumbling, inferior Wes in a matter of seconds.

There's definitely abuse of some kind, but I agree, I don't think it's sexual. Just the sort of abuse that's depicted as routine among English public schoolboys in American television shows. Posh people, repression - VERY mixy things in teeveeland.

I'm sure at some point there's some mention of him being locked in a closet? Perhaps on Buffy? Can't remember when though.

Is his 'hero' status deliberately self constructed?

Hmm...well, I think it's something he feels the need for once the protection/status of the watcher's council is gone. He becomes a rogue demon hunter, all leather pants and motorbikes. Now I think about it...perhaps he's influenced by whoever's around him? Cos the rogue demon hunter persona seems more than a little Faith-like! Wesley's something of a sponge - perhaps coming from wanting to please people, wanting to fit in? But also not having a strong sense of who he is. Once he's no longer part of the council, he tries on new identities, trying to find one that fits. I think he finds one he's comfy with in the end, being "book man" in the Fang Gang. Now there's a superhero I can respect...weilding the power of leatherbound volumes

Or is it 'just' from being around Angel and helping people for so long a la Cordy (unless you think otherwise re Cordy?!)?

What do you mean? That cordy becomes heroic from being around Angel? I wouldn't agree there. I think the life Angel opens up to her affects her deeply, and she leaves her old shallow life behind...but I think she influences Angel in his heroic role as much as he influences her, perhaps. Though I might have to think about that. Anyway, I think she finds her own unique way of being a hero, she doesn't try to copy Angel's broody ways. While wes...poor lamb is very lost and tries to find moulds to pour himself in. Or coats...

There's definitely a desire to be accepted by people there, but then Wes has always been focused on priorities - although in S1 I think he half wants to go back to the Council, he choses Angel over them, as he is doing more good, for example.

Oops, didn't read this bit so forgive if I repeatd you above...anyway, yes, Wesley's desire to be accepted is as much to be accepted by a system, an institution, an ideology as by people as individuals. He wants to be part of a team, to have a purpose, not just to be loved. Respect, he craves that for sure.

[sherrilina]

Oooh, count me in! Gotta love Wes, especially on Angel--he grows and progresses and develops so much! My fave Wes though has to be Hot&Sexy!Dark!Wes of season 4--I think Angelus sums it up in Soulless, with his "if I leaned that way..." line, lol! I mean, DAMN! I remember being awed in DD--when did he get so fine and so smoking hot?! The stubble, the badass attitude, Wilah...yeah, it doesn't get much better than that. But his other stages are great as well--love Dork!Wes, responsible and capable leader Wes, etc. I recently watched Bad Girls, the Buffy epp in which Wes is first introduced, and I was so happy to hear his familiar, beloved voice, and was mad at Buffy for picking on poor Wes, bless him! I wanted to give him a hug, the way they were treating him. And Buffy's potshot about his looks...I want to yell at her, "Hey! He is certainly hot...you should see him a few years from now!"

So that's one question for disucssion--which Wes or season of Angel (or Buffy 3 even) is your favorite Wes?

As for relationships, I have to go with Wilah all the way--I've never understood the big appeal of Fresley--while Wes's undying, unrequited love for her was sweet and cute, their relationship was too random and forced IMO when they did get together so suddenly and shortly in season 5--though AHITW was very heart-breaking, as was his final death scene (my fave death scene of the series--so well done!). Wilah meanwhile is complicated and complicated, hot and sexy, though with emotion and love at the same time, and a consuming passion. I love how Lilah finally cares for someone besides herself and falls in love in spite of herself, and how Wes also grows to love and care for her, even if never to the same degree as Fred. One of my favorite Wes lines, which sums Wilah up so well, is "Love isn't always about holding hands."

What do you mean? That cordy becomes heroic from being around Angel? I wouldn't agree there. I think the life Angel opens up to her affects her deeply, and she leaves her old shallow life behind...but I think she influences Angel in his heroic role as much as he influences her, perhaps. Though I might have to think about that. Anyway, I think she finds her own unique way of being a hero, she doesn't try to copy Angel's broody ways. While wes...poor lamb is very lost and tries to find moulds to pour himself in. Or coats...

I definitely agree--while Angel influenced her and it was because of him that she got the visions that opened it all, it was really more the visions and herself that made Cordy a hero, not just being around Angel. The visions opened up Cordy's eyes to all the pain and suffering in the world, especially when she was cursed in TSILA by that demon, and made her a better and more selfless person as she wanted to help others and the helpless. She does have a very different brand of heroism from Angel, as seen when they clash, like when Angel abandons AI in season 2, or when Angel begs her to give up the visions in season 3, and to stay in season 5. The visions is what most made her give up her shallow life, though Angel also influenced her, as did her love for Angel (remember in TVT when she says part of the reason why she doesn't want to give up the visions is b/c then Angel wouldn't need her anymore, and it was largely out of love for Angel that she became half-demon to continue bearing the visions in Birthday). But yeah, it wasn't just hanging around Angel that made her a champion, it was personal stuff as well--though she also did influence and guide Angel as a champion as well, as Wolfie says.

Whereas I do think with Wesley it was more a matter of trying to prove himself and Angel's influence (especially as far as going from distrusting Angel to choosing him over the Council, after he sees all the good he does) that made him a champion, as he didn't have visions or somethign similar to separately make him one. It doesn't undermine the extent to which he was a champion at all though--especially as he carried on even when Angel failed in season 2.

[vampmogs]

Count me in!

I love Wes, I think his character growth was so wonderful. I agree entirley that he is barley recongisable from s3 of Btvs to his final moments in Ats s5. I just love how he develops and changes and I don't particularly dislike any of his stages which makes it even more fun for me I think he is a great character, the kind that are so great your glad they die because ya know- he had to die to be all that more epic and cool!

I always felt he had to die for his character to be complete in a weird sort of way.

[The_Narrator]

Now I think about it...perhaps he's influenced by whoever's around him? Cos the rogue demon hunter persona seems more than a little Faith-like! Wesley's something of a sponge - perhaps coming from wanting to please people, wanting to fit in? But also not having a strong sense of who he is. Once he's no longer part of the council, he tries on new identities, trying to find one that fits. I think he finds one he's comfy with in the end, being "book man" in the Fang Gang.

Agree on Wes not having a strong sense of identity, hence his hiding behind the roles of Watcher, demon hunter, member of AI etc. Even in S4, when with Lilah, he almost tries to classify himself as part of the 'non-Angel' gang. But he is far more comfortable with himself late Season 2-ish? Perhaps because his of situation; Angel walking out, having a serious relationship, taking over AI etc.

Now there's a superhero I can respect...weilding the power of leatherbound volumes

Very Whovian there - can't quite recall the ep (Queen Vic. related?) and the Doctor admires the power of book-related research. And being the 'book guy' is certainly a needed position - even in S5, Wes knows his place, but Gunn is still worried about his position in the group because he is 'only the muscle' (most overused phrase ever in Angel ... no, wait, 'You're not Angelus' is a good one ... and 'Champion', of course *cringes* )

What do you mean? That cordy becomes heroic from being around Angel? I wouldn't agree there. I think the life Angel opens up to her affects her deeply, and she leaves her old shallow life behind...but I think she influences Angel in his heroic role as much as he influences her, perhaps.

I don't mean that she wasn't intrinsically heroic, but I think being around Angel bought that side out in her a lot more, than say, when she was with Buffy and the Scoobs. Though obv. the visions had a lot to do with it. They gave her a kind of purpose, I think, that made her the heroine we think of, c.f. with Wesley, who gave himself the purpose of fighting evil, even when he wasn't in a capacity to do so (i.e. not in the Council). Yes, Cordy helped set up AI, but it was partially financially gained ... though I suppose Wesley had just as much to gain from joining in terms of friendship, and respect. Hmm, perhaps that was a rash judgment about Cordy on my part, appy polly loggies. Though I'm unsure about her affect (or is it effect? 16 years of education not wasted then ) on Angel; he certainly draws strength from her ability to cope with the visions, but I think he draws on all of the gang's separate abilities, especially since he understands most of their insecurities.

[Cordelia_Chase]

Count me in.
Wesley rocked. I just love the whole journy he took. From once stuck up geeky watcher to rugged strong sxy demon hunter...

I think the change in Wes was one of the biggest in the buffy/Angel verse.
I mean to look at him when he was in Buffy you would have enver imaged he end up where he did....

so i say Yay Wesley! lol

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I was watching an episode of Angel in french yesterday (got it as a souvenir from someone's holiday, french dvds of a few season one eps) and Wesley as a frenchman was so sweet! His was one of the few voices that didn't sound ridiculous...wondered if it's easier to do an approximation of a british english voice than it is to transpose an american voice into french? But, he's hot in any language

[sueworld]

Add me too! I adored dear Wesley. His transformation from bumbling watcher to f*cked up gun toting tortured soul was beautifully handled in the show, and Alexis's acting was more then upto the challenge of bringing it all convincingly to the screen.

[NileQT87]

me, as well.

wesley is my SECOND favorite character after angel, hands down. i absolutely love wesley in all incarnations, though especially starting around season 3.

one of alexis' best scenes was in billy, being the stalker. his speech and slow eerie walk down the hallway... just stunning how good of an actor he is.

and wesley's death scene--saddest moment in the entire jossverse along with fred's. "do you want me to lie to you now."

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I think my favourite Wesley moment is....actually, a couple. Loved the Billy scene too...and then the first moment when he "becomes" Angel in Guise will be Guise....but perhaps my very top moment is when he's on that video that's show n at the W&H charity do....the one Anne organises....where we see Wes videoing himself in his pants. Pure comedy gold!

[alexa]

Im in Wesley is my favourite Angel character. I love all the Wesley's... just about. I can't pick my favourite version, he's either really funny, or really sexy or really dramatic, which is all good. I don't know if there's a more developed character in the verse.. perhaps Spike. I hope there is a way for him to be brought back, sucks that he was killed off because it was the end of the series. I would have handled any other character dying better then Wesley

[The_Narrator]

All the Wes/Lilah moments for me. Their gentle mocking of each other, that sense that they should really hate each other but are just too damned attracted to one another, the witty dialogue (I just love 'Oh look. A bribe.' ) And stabbing the Orpheus user was a chilling scene.

[vampmogs]

All the Wes/Lilah moments for me. Their gentle mocking of each other, that sense that they should really hate each other but are just too damned attracted to one another, the witty dialogue (I just love 'Oh look. A bribe.' ) And stabbing the Orpheus user was a chilling scene.

That was a very chilling scene, I really don't know how I feel about it. It was a life or death situation, they did have to find Angelus and she was in fact lying about not knowing as much as she actually did. However, it was a very shocking moment to see Wes do that and we never really got any discussion on it after it first happened which is a pity.

[alexa]

I think I appreciated the Lilah thing more when she was gone.. I recently watched season 4 and holy crap I didn't realize how much Lilah rocked. Cordelia just annoys me in that season so when she's yelling at her, Lilah's all "Are you trying to turn me on"
But Wes/Fred was also really cute, never got to see where that could go.. jeez every girl Wes touches seems to die.

Also needed to resurrect my favourite male character thread

[Vampire in Rug]

I'd love to join this ship. Wesley is a great character and I think that he's grown over the course of the show more than anybody. I love dorky Wesley and I loved tough Wesley. I liked how there were always traces of tough Wesley shining through Dorky Wesley and I like it how Tough Wesley still has his dorky moments.

Spoiler:

And I'm loving ghost Wesley

Here are some great Wesley facts:

1) Wesley is a mammal.
2) Wesley fights all the time.
3) The purpose of Wesley is to flip out and kill people.

Wesley is totally awesome and that's a fact. Wesley is fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet. I can't wait to start at the Watcher's Accademy next year.

[Nina]

Oh I'm not in the club either. I had the illusion that was I signed up already.
well, enniewee I want to join.

Angel is my favourite character but Wesley is not far behind, I love geeky Wes, good leader Wes, kidnapper Wes, rough Wes, Drunk Wes, bitter Wes ...

Spoiler:

Ghost Wesley, I need to thank Joss and Brian for another really interesting Wesley storyline.

they are all fantastic. And I'm impressed by AD's acting. Best actor in the 'verse (tied with ASH).

I love his relationship with everybody. His brother-sister relationship with Cordelia, the love-hate relation with Angel because they are pretty alike, his almost obsession with Fred, Wilah, the broken friendship with cool guy Gunn, the failed slayer-watcher relationship with Faith and his awful relation with his father.

He is one of the best written characters and he never regressed ... whatever he did .. he always learned and grew up a little.


Question:
What do you all think about Wesley in NFA, did he want to live or was it just a lie and was he tired of life and did he want to die?

[Vampire in Rug]

I think he wanted to live. It's a very human quality, to keep going on even when life sucks. I think he wanted to go on, he's a survivor. At the very least I think he wanted to care for and watch over Illyria. I don't think he was especially afraid of death at that point, but as he said, he had no intentions of dying.

[kana]

I believe Wesley wanted to live. I think he bought his own speech about the beautiful glimmers of hope that existence brings. Even though Fred was gone, that hope could still present itself.