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  • Lindsey: strong or weak?

    So I have been going through my usual rewatch of BTVS and ATS like I do, play by air dates. And this time I am noticing something about Lindsey. He kind of seems like a total pussy.

    We see Lindsey in the very first episode, City of, as Russel's lawyer, only for a moment before, and then after Russel is pushed through the window. Lindsey kind of just stands there and takes it.

    Later episodes, Lindsey is established as a bad guy and there are some conflicts, but it seems that for every conflict, Lindsey is only half-heartedly in it. Then there is the thing with the blind chick and Lindsey turns to Angel for help...which gives him a moment of redemption, and then he caves at the prospect of a six figure salary with benefits. So he comes off weak, like he really doesn't know what he wants.

    Then when Darla is being risen, Lindsey tries very hard to be the tough guy and loses his hand...and later becomes obsessed with Darla. He again comes to Angel for help. And when Angel comes to confront him at his apartment Lindsey just lets him in, lets Angel smash his head against the bar, and so forth.

    I'm only really at this part of re-watching, but I know there are other instances later in the series. Lindsey just comes off to me as a weak, flaky, indecisive character and whenever he is needed to show some backbone, he crumples.
    Spoiler:
    You could even consider his death to be an example of this, perhaps the writers wanted him to be weak, he is finally defeated by Lourne shooting him, no epic battle, no heroic ending.
    "To read makes our speaking English good"

    "Whenever Giles sends me on a mission, he always says 'Please.' And afterwards I get a cookie."

  • #2
    I think that Lindsay is weak as well, maybe even the weakest character on either show (not how he is written, but as a person). He can't pick a side, where Lilah is evil with all she has ... Lindsay is uncapable of doing that. But the guy is also uncapable of being good, he loves power and money too much to play by the rules. He wants to be CEO of W&H, Angel's archnemisis, member of the circle and Darla's man ... but he fails every single time. Lilah's plan almost always fail, but at least she has an identity. She is the evil CEO of W&H. Lindsay is only Lindsay the screw up, he is nothing ... a poor boy from Taxas who can't be succesful. Angel doesn't take him serious, Darla only uses him and he is not capable of doing what is needed to be on the top of evil circles and organisations.

    But in the meantime, he turns out as a fulltime bad guy, not because he really choose to ... the choice was made for him. The lust for power won, but he can't be taken serious as a bad guy because his heart is not in it like with Holland or Lilah. He is the pathetic bad guy, the one that is evil but nobody really cares (except Eve who is also pathetic).


    I think that Christian Kane is what Lindsay makes a loved and interesting character, even in season 5. Kane has some kind of spark that makes Lindsay worthy to watch. If a dull actor would've been Lindsay, he would be even more pathetic.

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    • #3
      Lindsey is weak, he is meant to be there, telling us how we are all weak, and how we get consumed by power. Lindsey is the everyday person, he is not evil, but he is human! In "Blind Date" he tells Angel that he grew up in poverty and that he saw his house being taken away and his father smiling while signing the deed. And he said right there that he would never be like his father, he would never be stepped on, he would do the stepping. So, he surrounded himself with power and he wanted more and more because he didn?t want to become like his father, "loser" to the world and corporate suits. His greed and lust for power is a way to make sure that he always wins. He knows what his company does, but in order to have that power he feels indifferent to it. And those times where he appears to have a crisis, he ultimately chooses to be on the winning side. Because like he tells Angel, his side has wealth and will always be around and Angel?s side has only one thing certain: death.

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      • #4
        I agree. Lindsey is weak and pathetic and unfortunately I dislike the character because of it. I hate when characters are overly pathetic for a large amount of time, they begin to grate on me. I find his Angel obsession ridiculous and laughable, he was trying to get in one macho pissing contest after another.

        I found his relationship with Darla even more grating. In 'Epiphany' he acts horrified and personally wronged when he finds out Darla slept with Angel. I just roll my eyes throughout the entire scene He never had Darla, was never in a relationship with her, she just used him. The way in which he demanded an explanation from her, as if he was personally wronged by it, just makes me laugh. He became deluded to the point he believed they were in a relationship together, almost as if Darla had "cheated" on him.

        I loved Darla though, she was fantastic when she pretends to be weak and needy after Angel sets her on fire, then as soon as Lindsey hops in the shower.. after a pompous "I'm always dirty" garbage line.. she rolls her eyes and hops off the couch. The eyeroll was brilliant! She thought he was just as full of it as I did.

        I also loved in 'Blind Date' when he starts giving Angel some trite spiel about how his house was taken away and Angel pretends to fall asleep. It's garbage, it's not an excuse and it's Lindsey trying to justify his horrible actions. It reminds me of Willow in 'Choices' when she scolds Faith for it as well, "I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo hoo! Poor you." Thankfully Faith snapped out of it, Lindsey never did.

        Unfortunately the character did very little for me. I don't mind if the characters have moments of pathetic-ness but not if they’re constantly weak and pitiful. Characters like that just irritate the hell out of me, I don’t enjoy people like that in real life and I don’t enjoy them on the screen either. I even like my bad guys to have a bit of self respect, which is why Lilah appeals to me so much more. She had her moments of vulnerability and embarrassment, especially when she can’t take no for an answer when Wes dumps her. However, she’s also amazingly strong-willed and successful. That's my kind of character.

        Quite frankly, I was relieved when Lindsey hightailed it out of LA and Lilah became Angel’s fulltime W&H adversary.

        And yes, his death was somewhat fitting for his character. He believed Angel should have been the one to kill him because he wanted to be elevated to that status. However, he was always just a lackey. His death scene was my favourite moment for the character mind you. Not because I hated him, but because it was one of the very few times where his contemptible nature didn't completely grate on me.
        Last edited by vampmogs; 21-04-09, 01:07 PM.

        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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        • #5
          I think sometimes people confuse 'being weak' with just showing your heart too much. Lindsey was a real human being, with all it's natural weaknesses and strengths.

          Personally I loved Lindsey. I thought he was a great little foil for Angel and the only reason why he died at Lorne's hands was because of the cancellation, which meant time was at a premium in the last episode, and so most characters had to have their story wrapped up one way or another in double quick time. As Angel was at that point more involved in the 'bigger picture' it fell to a secondary character to do the deed.

          So no, I didn't find him 'pitiful' or 'pathetic, just interesting.

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          • #6
            Likewise, I never found Lindsey weak at all. He's conflicted; his core values always at odds with his desire not to become like the people who taught him his values. But he's also intelligent, resourceful, and intense. He was Wolfram and Hart's Golden Boy for a reason, and he was Angel's nemesis for a reason. From the "Evil Hand" speech to the fact that nearly all of Season Five's forward momentum was because of his machinations, I always found Lindsey to be one of the best and strongest characters on the show.

            Actually, Angel, in interaction with Lindsey, always seems diminished and seems to make he wrong moves. When Lindsey is spilling his guts about his family losing their home and about losing siblings to the freaking flu because they were too poor to afford medicine...Angel pretends to be asleep? WTF? Lindsey had probably never told another soul about his motivations, and Angel does exactly the wrong thing. Lindsey's decision to return to Wolfram and Hart probably had more to do with that scene than with his scene with Holland. And Angel's missteps continued right to the bitter end, with Angel shattering his bedrock rule that no one is beyond redemption. Angel's lack of humanity is never more apparent than when dealing with Lindsey, who is one of the most human characters in the Buffyverse.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by sueworld View Post
              I think sometimes people confuse 'being weak' with just showing your heart too much. Lindsey was a real human being, with all it's natural weaknesses and strengths.
              I disagree, being weak-willed, weak-minded ect aren't definitions of showing "your heart too much." They are what they are. Some characters are stronger than others, some break more easily. Lindsey was an indecisive person who caved every time he showed any glimpse of promise, and revolved his entire existence around obsessions with people. As Eve states, Angel is the centre of his world and it all comes back to him. He didn't feel like a man until he could beat another down. That’s weak in my mind. He’s no different to Warren and how he thought he was a “real man” when he could beat on Buffy.

              He wasn't showing his heart too much when he traded in a shot at redemption for a six figure salary, or when he came back to LA because he wanted to run Wolfram and Hart and join the Blackthorn.

              Originally posted by XavierZane View Post
              Actually, Angel, in interaction with Lindsey, always seems diminished and seems to make he wrong moves. When Lindsey is spilling his guts about his family losing their home and about losing siblings to the freaking flu because they were too poor to afford medicine...Angel pretends to be asleep? WTF?
              I was very happy he did that. It's no excuse for his kind of behaviour and people like him try and use it as an excuse. Look at all the crap Lilly/Anne went through and look how she ended up. She would never think to sell her beliefs and her values by working for a company like Wolfram and Hart. He did exactly what Faith used to try and do, and Willow was completely right about telling her to get over it. You can’t possibly begin to redeem yourself if you’re too busy making excuses for your actions. That's all he was doing.

              Yes Lindsey was a very human character, but a lot of humans just aren't nice people. Most characters in the verse are very human but were better people. Angel was tortured for one hundred years in a hell dimension, but if he came back and killed people then tried to gain sympathy about his ordeal I'd think he was just as bad. Yes it's a bad break but some people would just never dream of doing what Lindsey did just to prove himself.
              Last edited by vampmogs; 22-04-09, 08:14 AM.

              ~ Banner by Nina ~

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              • #8
                Likewise, I never found Lindsey weak at all. He's conflicted; his core values always at odds with his desire not to become like the people who taught him his values. But he's also intelligent, resourceful, and intense. He was Wolfram and Hart's Golden Boy for a reason, and he was Angel's nemesis for a reason. From the "Evil Hand" speech to the fact that nearly all of Season Five's forward momentum was because of his machinations, I always found Lindsey to be one of the best and strongest characters on the show.
                Nicely put and I very much agree. Also If nothing else he must have been doing something right to have survived being a first an employee of Wolfram & Hart, then an ex employee, for as long as he did.

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                • #9
                  I wouldn't say weak is an inaccurate description, but perhaps an oversimplification. I do agree that while Lindsay is ambitious and has everything it takes to be a 'power player' his pangs of conscience keep ringing out. He's not a sociopath but it's hard to turn down everything when you've got nothing.

                  Interestingly Holland and Angel's advice in Blind Date wasn't all that different. Both of them are telling him he needs to have the guts to make a conscious moral dicision, whether it's to follow his conscience or his ambition as a believer in the 'Master/Slave' ideology. If as a 'Master' he goes against W&H (following Holland's belief) then essentially, he may die. If he leaves and becomes a 'Slave' then he gets stepped on which is just what he's been trying to escape his whole life.

                  Is Angel a hypocrite? Doesn't everyone have a chance at redemption?

                  There a two main sides to this and some of them are quite humorous:

                  Angel is picking and choosing who he wants to redeem. Choosing to go the extra mile for Faith and Darla for example has little to do with right and wrong and more to do with personal preference. Angel didn't like Lindsay. Yes he had let things get out of control but it initially (in Blind Date) it was a hard choice to make. He seemed almost damned either way and Angel should have given him more support. He certainly shouldn't have killed him. There were so many indications that Lindsay wasn't evil, so therefore there is always a chance at redemption. Angel has the right to defend himself if he believes he or his friends are in danger but he doesn't have the right to "arbitrarily decide whose soul is worth saving and whose isn't" especially if they show signs of having a soul.

                  This is another argument I like:

                  "Angel prefers to redeem people with breasts"

                  The other side usually goes like this:

                  Lindsay continues to make the wrong choice. Why are people so hard on Angel saying he wasn't cuddling Lindsay and saying nice words. He gave him all the information he needed so there are no excuses. Angel actually did help Lindsay by showing him where he is. A crisis of faith may be a causal factor in changing but you have to want to change and this is what Angel tried to get through to him. Lindsay made his choice, it was a hard one but he has to live with it.

                  I agree with elements of both. Angel was being personal with Faith, Darla and Lindsay but as Mogs said, Angel can't give any of these people one important thing, the internal desire to change. This is true of Harmony as well. Angel was very insensitive to her but in the endshe can't blame Angel for her choices, sure she can blame her lack of soul but if she wants to make moral decisions that's up to her.

                  Personally, I love Lindsay. I find his character fascinating because it shows that some people don't change when they have the chance to, which is important to demonstrate in a show which is big on redemption. However, if Lindsay had the chance to change (I have issues with what Lorne reads and self-determination is a big theme in a show like this) then it possible that Angel also failed on a level but this is what makes are characters all the more compelling...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post

                    I was very happy he did that. It's no excuse for his kind of behaviour and people like him try and use it as an excuse. Look at all the crap Lilly/Anne went through and look how she ended up. She would never think to sell her beliefs and her values by working for a company like Wolfram and Hart. He did exactly what Faith used to try and do, and Willow was completely right about telling her to get over it. You can't possibly begin to redeem yourself if you're too busy making excuses for your actions. That's all he was doing.
                    Besides Lindsay made a very strange mistake, he assumed that Angel had an easy childhood because his parents were rich. Like money can fix everything. We've three characters with rich parents (Angel, Cordelia and Wesley); none of this characters had good parents. Angel and Wesley have both serious problems with their father and their childhood, and Cordelia was unhappy until she left her parents because they never really noticed her as a person. They don't use their past as an excuse for their mistakes. Lindsay didn't want a hug and a friend, he wanted people to feel sorry for him.

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                    • #11
                      Lindsay didn't want a hug and a friend, he wanted people to feel sorry for him.
                      Did he? I always got the impression most of all Lindsey wanted to be admired. He wanted to be seen as 'player' and thats why he ended up doing the things he did. He always came across to me as a little Rooster of a man, who's feathers went up when he was around certain people such as Angel.

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                      • #12
                        I saw him more as a person who wants people to care about him, to feel bad for him, because he would be noticed. Not because he really wanted a friend. And I never saw the scene where he tells about his past as a way to open his heart but more as a 'Look rich boy, see how poor I'm and how hard I had to work.'. Lindsay probably despises rich people, he thinks that they had it easy. Like their fathers could buy them succes (yes, I'm aware that this happens in RL) while he had to survive and work for it.


                        About Angel choosing who to redeem, I think that this is nonsense. Angel doesn't redeem another person but himself. Every single person redeems him- or herself. Angel only helps them when they want it, if they don't want it, Angel can't help. Yes, in some cases Angel could do more than he did. I see this as both; a failure from his side at times but it's not like every criminal is Angel's responsibility. Especially the sane and adult ones are not. If Lindsay really asked for it or showed a real cry for help, and Angel would refuse ... it would be different. But Lindsay always looked like he was quite happy with himself and blamed the world instead of himself. You can't redeem yourself when you can't see your own failures and mistakes.

                        The only real exception is 'Darla', Darla is of course the same case as Angel was and he wants to be there for her because nobody was there for him when he was in the same situation. Besides it's the woman he lived with for 150 years. They are very close.
                        Last edited by Nina; 22-04-09, 07:58 PM.

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                        • #13
                          I saw him more as a person who wants people to care about him, to feel bad for him because he would be noticed, not because he really wanted a friend. And I never saw the scene where he tells about his past as a way to open his heart but more as a 'Look rich boy, see how poor I'm and how hard I had to work.'. Lindsay probably despises rich people, he thinks that they had it easy. Like their fathers could buy them succes (yes, I'm aware that this happens in RL) while he had to survive and work for it.
                          Yeah, I think you're right there. He realy didn't think much of those who'd had it 'easy' in his eyes.

                          I also think thats why his relationship with Darla was so important to him. He wanted someone to want him, to rely on him, but of course being Darla she very quickly went beyond that.

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                          • #14
                            I'm still on the fence about him wanting Darla. I think that he was in love with her and Darla was of course important and she had nobody else. He was her hero, her everything. But I also think that Darla was a bit of a trophy, she was Angel's woman. He had Angel's beautiful wife in his house.

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                            • #15
                              I keep coming back to that one scene. I never really gave it much thought before, beyond disliking Angel a little bit whenever I watch it. I don't think that what happened to Lindsey justifies his behavior. Every person is responsible for their own choices and actions. But what he talks about were the genuine traumatic events that led him to where he is in the show. Dirt poor, no running water, he had to watch his brothers and sisters die not ten feet away from him, then he had to watch his father smile subserviently as what little they did have was taken right from under them. And Angel mocks this!...the more I think about it the worse I feel. I think this is the nucleus of everything else that happened on the show between Angel and Lindsey. Lindsey was on the fence about his life, was showing vulnerability for the first time we'd ever seen and probably the first time in a very long while. But, for whatever reason, Angel just wasn't in the mood to be patient or understanding or helpful (or even manipulative). He just wanted Lindsey to change instantly and get out of his sight. The tone of that relationship was set in that meeting, and Angel's attitude, if anything, got even worse and more petty as time went on. Look at "Dead End", when, as far as we and Angel knew, Lindsey had changed. He left Wolfram and Hart, L.A. and all the money and power for which he had worked so hard. And Angel tapes a "Cops suck" banner to his truck like some sixteen year old. The only other person that brought out this side of Angel was Spike, and that took decades.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Nina View Post
                                I'm still on the fence about him wanting Darla. I think that he was in love with her and Darla was of course important and she had nobody else. He was her hero, her everything. But I also think that Darla was a bit of a trophy, she was Angel's woman. He had Angel's beautiful wife in his house.
                                Perhaps partly but he clearly had true affection for Darla. He genuinely showed concerned over her dying state and tried to help her on more than one occasion, despite himself. This seems more than just vying for a trophy. Also when Holland deceived them both he seemed just as annoyed that they played Darla as well as himself.

                                I saw him more as a person who wants people to care about him, to feel bad for him, because he would be noticed. Not because he really wanted a friend. And I never saw the scene where he tells about his past as a way to open his heart but more as a 'Look rich boy, see how poor I'm and how hard I had to work.'. Lindsay probably despises rich people, he thinks that they had it easy. Like their fathers could buy them succes (yes, I'm aware that this happens in RL) while he had to survive and work for it.
                                I also think a part of him honestly buys into the Master/Slave morality, or at least he wanted to. He pretty much explained himself to Angel in Blind Date. Sometimes fervent ambition can blind us, so...

                                Did he? I always got the impression most of all Lindsey wanted to be admired. He wanted to be seen as 'player'
                                To me it was more about being a player rather than simply playing the part.

                                I keep coming back to that one scene. I never really gave it much thought before, beyond disliking Angel a little bit whenever I watch it. I don't think that what happened to Lindsey justifies his behavior. Every person is responsible for their own choices and actions. But what he talks about were the genuine traumatic events that led him to where he is in the show. Dirt poor, no running water, he had to watch his brothers and sisters die not ten feet away from him, then he had to watch his father smile subserviently as what little they did have was taken right from under them. And Angel mocks this!...
                                To disagree with what Nina said, I don't think he wants pity, but he's explaining where he is coming from. As I said, coming from such extreme poverty can make a person take any opportunity to get out of it. Up until Blind Date, we can't blame Lindsay anymore than someone like Faith. Both were reacting rather than acting and let things get too far.

                                I think this is the nucleus of everything else that happened on the show between Angel and Lindsey. Lindsey was on the fence about his life, was showing vulnerability for the first time we'd ever seen and probably the first time in a very long while. But, for whatever reason, Angel just wasn't in the mood to be patient or understanding or helpful (or even manipulative). He just wanted Lindsey to change instantly and get out of his sight.
                                I still have to agree with Mogs on this one to a degree. Despite his insensitivity Lindsay can't really use the whole 'Angel didn't hug me' excuse. Angel actually did set out everything for him in terms of his choice. It was never going to be a good choice, but the choice was there. However the thing about redemption is, is that you don't just get one shot...

                                The tone of that relationship was set in that meeting, and Angel's attitude, if anything, got even worse and more petty as time went on. Look at "Dead End", when, as far as we and Angel knew, Lindsey had changed. He left Wolfram and Hart, L.A. and all the money and power for which he had worked so hard. And Angel tapes a "Cops suck" banner to his truck like some sixteen year old.
                                Oh, Angel's being an arse here but, going to Spike and Angel, they still followed the path of champions despite their differences, Lindsay can't use the fact he doesn't like Angel, or that Angel doesn't like him as an excuse, however, Angel robbing Lindsay a chance at changing based upon Lorne's reading? Hmmmm, no Kana, let it go!!!

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by kana View Post
                                  I still have to agree with Mogs on this one to a degree. Despite his insensitivity Lindsay can't really use the whole 'Angel didn't hug me' excuse. Angel actually did set out everything for him in terms of his choice. It was never going to be a good choice, but the choice was there. However the thing about redemption is, is that you don't just get one shot...
                                  Well, just imagine Angel treating Faith like he did Lindsey. Faith relapsed several times and nearly bolted even with Angel's complete support, patience, hugs, dramatic speeches, etc. If Angel had expended even a fraction of the effort he put into helping Faith, the outcome probably would have been a lot different.

                                  And Lindsey never used the fact that Angel is a complete ass to him as an excuse. Lindsey, completely of his own volition, decides that Wolfram and Hart has crossed a line that he can't stomach and searches out Angel to stop it. He stops the act that offended him, even with how Angel acts towards him, and it's only afterward that he's tempted back to Wolfram and Hart. If Angel had shown him any semblance of compassion, or that the supposed "side of good" was in any way better than the "side of evil", then I think Lindsey's decision would have been a no brainer for him. Instead, Angel, the avatar for "Good" mocks some of his most traumatic memories and insults him, while Holland, the avatar for "Evil" shows him compassion and respect.

                                  No one on either show, not even Angel, began the path to redemption without help and compassion. Without Angel, Faith would be a mass murderer and most likely dead. Without Buffy, Dawn, Joyce, etc, Spike would never have won his soul. Without Whistler, and then Buffy, Angel would still be dining on rats.

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                                  • #18
                                    Faith acted very differently to Lindsey though. She didn't walk into Angel's office and try and make excuses for her actions, if anything she was extra hard on herself. She openly invited Buffy to beat her to death. I think that's why Angel was more open to her. Lindsey on the other hand was quite different, he was trying to make excuses and Angel didn't want to hear it. I agree with Nina's great point that it probably rubbed Angel up the wrong way as well. Lindsey tried to use the fact he was poor as some kind of justification, when Angel's family had plenty of money as a child and he still had an awful upbringing.

                                    Angel may have hugged Faith when she broke down, but it wasn't as if he went completely easy on her. He was quite forceful when Faith said "lets just not mention it then" regarding Wesley. Angel wanted her to take responsibility for her actions.

                                    I do believe some people can be beyond redemption and I think Lindsey is one of them. How many times had he hopped back and forth throughout the series? In the end he always chooses the evil path. Even in 'Not Fade Away' he was supposed to take over Wolfram and Hart once Angel and his team left. I think a lot of the time the reasons he was jumping back and forth was because he was trying to shake his life up a bit. Playing both sides was a lot grander then just being on one or the other. When it comes down to it I see that as the reason he was so indecisive, more so than any good in him.

                                    The reason I'm not too fond of his character is that I think he tries to build himself up as this great complex creature. He wants people to view him that way, he gets a kick out of it. I think he's genuinely complex but I think he feels important by playing both teams. Which brings me back to that scene with Darla when he gives that pompous "I'm always dirty" line before taking a shower. As soon as he leaves the room Darla just rolls her eyes at him and hops out of bed. IMO she can see straight through the act, it's all just bluster. It's also seen when he finds out he wasn't the only one to survive Darla and Dru's slaughter. He's angry that Lilah survived to because he liked being the special one, the "only one" to survive. It's why I see such comparisons between Lindsey and Warren, they both want to be more important than they really are.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by XavierZane View Post
                                      Well, just imagine Angel treating Faith like he did Lindsey. Faith relapsed several times and nearly bolted even with Angel's complete support, patience, hugs, dramatic speeches, etc. If Angel had expended even a fraction of the effort he put into helping Faith, the outcome probably would have been a lot different.
                                      Maybe, maybe not, but Angel did give Lindsay all the information. He was absolutely right and as I may have said, so was Holland. lindsay heart wasn't in his work and considering the contract in Blind Date, he was having an attack of conscience. Angel correctly identified this as panic. Holland called it a crisis of faith, not all that different in effect.

                                      The world is as it is, but Angel would say that's it's not how it ought to be, because it's harsh and cruel. Holland would say it's simply designed for people who know how to use it. Whilst Holland is an expert manipulator, he gives Lindsay a real choice, intimidation aside, as does Angel. Both of them ask him to look inside himself and he can probably understand and rationalise his choices a lot better than Faith can. He even shows he understands the difficulty in making his choice when he says the righteous shall walk a thorny path. He needed to act rather than react to his circumstance (panic or have a crisis) which is what Faith used to do all the time.

                                      I suppose the circumstances, however, were slated against Lindsay's reformation, choice or not. Holland could give Lindsay what he wanted. He responded to his sense of greed, insecurity and fear better than Angel managed to appeal to his conscience, but in the end, he has to be up to him.

                                      And Lindsey never used the fact that Angel is a complete ass to him as an excuse.

                                      Oh I'm not saying he did, I just saying he can't.


                                      Lindsey, completely of his own volition, decides that Wolfram and Hart has crossed a line that he can't stomach and searches out Angel to stop it. He stops the act that offended him, even with how Angel acts towards him, and it's only afterward that he's tempted back to Wolfram and Hart. If Angel had shown him any semblance of compassion, or that the supposed "side of good" was in any way better than the "side of evil", then I think Lindsey's decision would have been a no brainer for him. Instead, Angel, the avatar for "Good" mocks some of his most traumatic memories and insults him, while Holland, the avatar for "Evil" shows him compassion and respect.
                                      I definitely see your point, and it is a possibility that things may have gone differently, but as I said, Angel did give him all the advice he needed. It's not an easy path but there are opportunities to change if one wants them. However, I did read an interesting fringe theory that Angel admits he made mistakes with Lindsay in Epiphany despite beating the crap out of him... I do however agree that Angel's personal dislike of Lindsay or perhaps W&H was dictating his behaviour towards him. It's one of the double edge swords of getting personally involved.

                                      No one on either show, not even Angel, began the path to redemption without help and compassion. Without Angel, Faith would be a mass murderer and most likely dead. Without Buffy, Dawn, Joyce, etc, Spike would never have won his soul. Without Whistler, and then Buffy, Angel would still be dining on rats.

                                      Faith acted very differently to Lindsey though. She didn't walk into Angel's office and try and make excuses for her actions, if anything she was extra hard on herself. She openly invited Buffy to beat her to death. I think that's why Angel was more open to her. Lindsey on the other hand was quite different, he was trying to make excuses and Angel didn't want to hear it. I agree with Nina's great point that it probably rubbed Angel up the wrong way as well. Lindsey tried to use the fact he was poor as some kind of justification, when Angel's family had plenty of money as a child and he still had an awful upbringing
                                      I still don't really see Lindsay as making excuses, or attempting a justification. What he's providing Angel is a way of understanding why he's doing what he's doing. Despite Angel's sarcasm, based upon his advice, he actually did understand. Both Faith and Lindsay were reacting to circumstances rather than acting. Everyone has different walks of life and to a degree Angel made some ill-advised choices in his youth as well. In any respect none of this contradicts that Angel was personally annoyed by Lindsay/W&H but as I've said it's the trade off of getting personally involved which I wouldn't change for the world. Either way Lindsay made the choice he made.

                                      Angel may have hugged Faith when she broke down, but it wasn’t as if he went completely easy on her. He was quite forceful when Faith said “lets just not mention it then” regarding Wesley. Angel wanted her to take responsibility for her actions.
                                      I've always used this as an argument for people who simply say Angel was all hugs and kisses with Faith however, he did visably show her sympathy and concern, which there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

                                      I do believe some people can be beyond redemption and I think Lindsey is one of them. How many times had he hopped back and forth throughout the series? In the end he always chooses the evil path. Even in 'Not Fade Away' he was supposed to take over Wolfram and Hart once Angel and his team left. I think a lot of the time the reasons he was jumping back and forth was because he was trying to shake his life up a bit. Playing both sides was a lot grander then just being on one or the other. When it comes down to it I see that as the reason he was so indecisive, more so than any good in him.
                                      The point is as long as Lindsay shows signs of conscience then there is a chance. I don't think Angel had to dedicate his life sponsering Lindsay but I'm still not sure about killing him. Is this what Angel is supposed to do? Hunt down the guilty? What was he supposed to do that Lorne read that would warrant his killing? We don't know, we may never know but I don't take it for granted that Angel and Lorne did the right thing.

                                      The reason I'm not too fond of his character is that I think he tries to build himself up as this great complex creature. He wants people to view him that way, he gets a kick out of it. I think he's genuinely complex but I think he feels important by playing both teams. Which brings me back to that scene with Darla when he gives that pompous “I’m always dirty” line before taking a shower. As soon as he leaves the room Darla just rolls her eyes at him and hops out of bed. IMO she can see straight through the act, it’s all just bluster. It’s also seen when he finds out he wasn’t the only one to survive Darla and Dru’s slaughter. He’s angry that Lilah survived to because he liked being the special one, the “only one” to survive. It’s why I see such comparisons between Lindsey and Warren, they both want to be more important than they really are.
                                      First of all with Darla, I don't think it's an act. It has no purpose, it just doesn't really fit. He wasn'y acting when he freaked when the children were going to die in Blind Date. He wasn't acting when he saw his old friend from the mailroom whose hand he was wearing. Lindsay had a conscience but didn't have the guts to make that change. He was fuelled by his hatred of Angel and his desire to be a power player but none of this negates his soul. He wants what W&H have to offer but he cannot shake the feeling that he is going is wrong. That's why he feels dirty. Warren showed little to no compassion or feeling, neither did Corbin Fries, The McNamara brothers, Ryan Anderson etc, Lindsay, doesn't really fit that bill. I honestly don't think it's simply status, its about wanting the follow the Master/Slave morality (players and pawns) and do it guilt free.

                                      "It's not about good and evil, it's about who yields the most power"
                                      Last edited by kana; 23-04-09, 11:42 AM.

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                                      • #20
                                        He just wanted Lindsey to change instantly and get out of his sight. The tone of that relationship was set in that meeting, and Angel's attitude, if anything, got even worse and more petty as time went on. Look at "Dead End", when, as far as we and Angel knew, Lindsey had changed. He left Wolfram and Hart, L.A. and all the money and power for which he had worked so hard. And Angel tapes a "Cops suck" banner to his truck like some sixteen year old. The only other person that brought out this side of Angel was Spike, and that took decades.
                                        Oh god yes, and remember when Lindsey was playing his guitar in Lornes bar whilst Angel and co watched. Lord the petty, bitter little digs Angel kept coming out with were hysterical.

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