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  • Killing Lindsey

    Okay maybe it's my bias for liking the character but I thought Angel's having him killed was one of the abso-positively wrong things he did on the show

    So to start off with, I never saw Lindsey as evil as other employees of Wolfram & Hart. He's a selfish man but he has humanity inside of him. He's no holland Manners for instance.

    Now he returns in Season 5 seeking revenge on Angel which is understandable. However he agrees to help with Angel with his big plan. His reward? To be killed.

    Now first off, Angel made Lorne do this. Lorne. Possibly the nicest, gentlest being in the whole world.

    Second, Lindsey seemed to be seeking redemption in my book. He even offered to sing for Lorne which possibly could have shown a change in his heart. Yet he was denied this chance and shot dead so who's to eve rknow if he was turning good.

    Angel of course is the last person to deny anyone redemption considering what he has done. Seems hypocritical to me.

    But this is just me...I wanna know what the members here think.
    47
    It was the absolutely right thing to do
    14.89%
    7
    Maybe it wasn't right but it was understandable and necessary
    34.04%
    16
    It was one of the worst things Angel has ever done -Beyond forgiveness
    12.77%
    6
    It was right and wrong...I see both sides
    38.30%
    18

  • #2
    I disagree with ya, in some areas at least.

    I didn’t see Lindsey as a good guy at all, or any better than the other Wolfram and Hart lawyers. They all had humanity in them, but that’s the point. Humanity can be just as cruel and evil as demons sometimes.

    Lindsey had been given the opportunity to redeem himself on multiple occasions. However, in the end he always went down the dark route instead. Coming back in season five to seek revenge on Angel may have been “understandable,” but it doesn’t make it in anyway right. He came back to LA because Wolfram and Hart gave Angel the title he was always hoping for. He came back to LA to become a member of the Blackthorn, one of the most evil and hideous groups in the world. He wasn’t a pleasant guy by any stretch of the imagination. He was devious and manipulating in the way he tricked Spike, he was horrible in the way he used Doyle’s name for his own insidious plan, and he killed innocent people (like the seemingly harmless demon) along the way. He’s also partially responsible, along with Eve, for anyone who died in ‘Destiny’ due to the imbalance they created. Jerry the toner guy is now a murderer thanks to Lindsey, and the guy he killed with the fire extinguisher is also dead because of Lindsey.

    Angel didn’t “make Lorne” kill Lindsey. He asked Lorne to do it. That’s exactly what Lorne says and that’s exactly what Angel says in ‘Power Play’ as well. He wasn’t ordering people, he was asking for their cooperation. Lorne could have said no, but he chose to kill Lindsey. He’s just as responsible as Angel is. Angel always bares the brunt for that and Lorne always gets off relatively fine because they played the sympathy card. But nuh-uh, he's just as responsible for this.

    In regards to Lindsey’s possible redemption; I always interpreted Lorne’s line “I’ve heard you sing” as evidence that it really wasn’t going to happen. I believe Lorne meant that he’d seen what Lindsey’s destiny was, and it wasn’t something good. Besides, remember what Lindsey and Angel were talking about before they went into battle? Lindsey was planning on taking over Wolfram and Hart after Angel and the gang bust out. So it’s not as if after the whole battle, if he survived, Lindsey was planning on turning his life around. Quite the opposite. As they both state, "the devil you know." And really, Angel knew the second Lindsey had control of all that power he was going to use it to take out Angel. Angel's his obsession, the guy he desperately wants to kill to prove his own manhood.

    There's at least an argument there that Angel was taking out Lindsey before he could take out him. But it's a risky argument and certainly open for debate.

    I’m not sure how I feel about taking Lindsey out in the way they did, my mind changes about that everyday. However, I have no sympathy for Lindsey whatsoever. The guy was despicable and spat on all the previous chances Angel had given him. He was certainly no Faith.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 11-04-09, 05:15 AM.

    ~ Banner by Nina ~

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    • #3
      I found it very wrong. Not the worst thing Angel has ever done, but something that went against everything Angel stood for. Nobody is ever beyond redemption.

      Comment


      • #4
        I can see both sides in the matter, but like Nikkolas I believe it may be a bias opinion because of my love for Lindsey's character.

        I agree with vampmog in that Lindsey was not a good guy in the big picture. Yes, there were times when he felt guilt. Times when he chose to stand up and do the right thing. We saw this most in episode 1x21 "Blind Date" when Lindsey went to Angel for help after finding out that Wolfram & Hart had plans to kill a bunch of "gifted" children. We also caught glimpses of it when he helped/killed the man who's hand he was given when he got the transplant, when he decided to leave the Wolfram & Hart, and also helping Angel and co in "Never Fade Away". He had potential there, but more often than not he chose to take the darker path.

        Lindsey cared about himself. He was power hungry, and obsessed with getting back at Angel, and he would stop at nothing to get what he wanted on both matters. I found it very disturbing that he would use Doyle's name and play Spike the way he did. I was hurt just as much as Angel and Cordy. For as much as his "good" moments were, his bad far out weighs them.

        However, Lindsey was my absolute favorite employee of Wolfram & Hart and I loved every episode he was in. He did have a kindness to him, but he also had anger (which I think Angel was responsible for in a big way). I don't think Angel's plan to kill Lindsey was at all dignified or right in the way it was carried out. I can see why Angel wanted Lindsey dead in the end, but to have use him the way he did (again) and than have Lorne of all people do it. It just made me really sad. Lorne is not a killer, he's a lover. You could see how it tore him up to have to do it. Yes as was mentioned he was "asked" by Angel to do it and could have said no, but I kinda felt that Lorne was more guilted into doing it. He was the last one to raise his hand in their circle when Angel asked for their help. He never wanted to be apart of the war, but he had grown close to all of them throughout the years. They were his family, he was standing by them, and in the end it was what broke him. We can see this when he tells Angel not to look for him when it was all over. That he would do this one last thing for his friends and than he was leaving. It was all to much for him.

        Also, being partial to the character of Lindsey, if he was gonna die I would have liked to have seen him go down with a fight. The way it happened was so pathetic. To have defeated all of the demons, fighting side by side with Lorne and pretty much doing most of the work...to have completed his assignment and than just get shot out of no where like that. That was wrong. It should have either been at the hands of someone/thing he was fighting against that got the best of him or Angel.

        Although I have to give props to Joss for giving us yet another totally unexpected and heart wrenching death.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with Mogs,

          I don't think that it must be seen as a good thing Angel did, but it's far from the worst things he did. Lindsay was in the end no hair better than Holland or Lilah. Just like with locking Darla & Drusilla up with the lawyers in 'Reunion', it was no real injustice but more a bad thing for Angel to do because it's not the way he should deal with them.

          Although, here we have that line by Lorne 'I heard you sing', which can mean that there was a need to kill lindsay. Which is a bit confirmed with Lorne killing Lindsay anyway even when the end was coming. I think that Lorne saw Lindsay do something that would be terrible or he saw that Lindsay really had no chance to be redeemed anymore. But in the last case, there is no real need to kill Lindsay right at that moment. I still think that it is the first, that Lindsay was going to do something that should be prevented.


          The evil humans are always a problem, especially those who work (or worked) for W&H. They can't be punished by the human laws because they do things (planning apocalypses, siring innocents etc.) that the normal laws don't cover. A big part of the demons can be redeemed as well, but nobody ever cares because they are demons. If Lorne's cousin would have eneded up in Sunnydale, big chance that Buffy would've chopped his head off and nobody would've cared because he was green. But he was not even close to the evilness of the W&H lawyers, and he has some kind of soul as well. And what if Lorne and Angel knew about something awful Lindsay was going to do, and they let him go ... they would be guilty to whatever Lindsay was going to do.
          Last edited by Nina; 11-04-09, 10:58 AM.

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          • #6
            There are two issues with this. A) is what Lorne reads 100%? and if so does it justify killing humans?

            The conversation that goes on between Angel and Lindsay implies that both parties expect the other to betray them. Tactically speaking, taking out Lindsay before he gets an opportunity to do so, is the smart move.

            But what of Lindsay's motives. Clearly as Mogs and others have pointed out, he is driven by the need for power. Yes, he has humanity but this isn't the issue I'm getting at. We know Lindsay has a human soul but we have also seen signs of his conscience. Holland and others have shown little compassion for human lives. Other examples of this are Corbin Fries, Warren Mears, Ryan Anderson, The McNamara brothers. Lindsay doesn't actually fall into this category and evidence of this is shown in both Blind Date and Dead End.

            Also, I agree that Lorne is totally responsible for his own actions and think that this in part contributes to his despair. In his eyes he's seen and done too much in past year. The lines of moral ambiguity, even for the so-called greater good is too much to muster. I can actually see his point. Whether demons or humans, death is death. We can rationalize and say it's self defense or protecting lives, but what do we do? Kill any human that is a threat to us? Kill any human that may threaten other lives? How far does it go? People like Lindsay's are not vampires or even sociopathic humans, and Lorne once admitted that nothing is written in stone, so without a clear understanding of destiny (an point I've argued before) it's difficult to judge it. I wouldn't say it's the worst thing Angel has done but he needs to remember one important point: When fighting monsters, one must be careful they do not become one in the process...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by eric nicole
              Also, being partial to the character of Lindsey, if he was gonna die I would have liked to have seen him go down with a fight. The way it happened was so pathetic.
              i think lindsey deserved a pathetic death myself. going down fighting is for the heros. lindsey is no hero, and in many ways he is worse than any demon. he may have fought with the good guys this time, but it was for purely selfish reasons. he had no interest in saving people, just himself and the future he wanted - which was to bring down angel.

              i agree that angel was in the right on this one. although i really, really hate that lorne was the one asked to do it, i understand why. lorne had the power to see what the future held for lindsey, so he was the only one who could understand why angel had to do it.


              Originally posted by kana
              Whether demons or humans, death is death. We can rationalize and say it's self defense or protecting lives, but what do we do? Kill any human that is a threat to us? Kill any human that may threaten other lives? How far does it go?
              to me, angel was in the right because lindsey was going to be unstoppable. there's a point when things go too far, where you can't stop someone. Nina makes a wonderful point that lindsey is untouchable. he is a human whom human laws do not apply to, and who has a powerful, evil law firm on his side. he is power hungry and willing to do most anything to satisfy that. he wants control, and there is nothing to stop him from taking it, except angel. maybe lindsey was capable of redemption, but do we know that for certain? based on the evidence that angel has, not only is lindsey not capable of redemption, but he's going to do something terrible.

              why risk the world, or at the least many lives, when its unlikely to change and you can stop it? its like that 1/4 commercial i've been seeing lately. lol. except its more like 3/4. if there was a 3/4 chance that your milk was bad, would you drink it? for me, lorne saying "i've heard you sing" is enough for me. whether possibly redeemable or not, angel had to be sure there was no chance lindsey's plans and possible future would ever happen.

              i've seen mentions of the words "soul" and "humanity" a few times. the interesting thing about jossverse is that he is full of contradictions concerning these things, and i love the situations created with it. a soul does not equal good. and some evil things have humanity. any of the lawyers at w&h are examples of the former. the judge telling angelus that dru and spike have humanity is an example of the latter. so i don't really think that having a soul is enough to say that someone is redeemable or someone we shouldn't kill for the better good. look at sadam hussain. perfect example of power gone bad and being unstoppable. and he didn't even have the supernatural to help him, lol.

              overall, i don't like lindsey AT ALL and i think his death fit him. the only thing that was sad about that scene for me was lorne's part.
              Last edited by oneslikeme; 23-04-09, 05:45 PM.
              Oz: Sometimes when I'm sitting in class... You know, I'm not thinking about class, 'cause that would never happen. I think about kissing you. And it's like everything stops. It's like, it's like freeze frame. Willow kissage.

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              • #8
                I agree with oneslikeme, Lindsay didn't deserve a hero's death -- he was anything but.

                Looking at the big picture, Lindsay had the opportunities to change. He didn't pick them. Lindsay was only fighting the big battle at the end because of Angel's promise of power, there was no redemption there.

                Also, as far as the good/evil thing goes with demons, I remember reading somewhere that in Angel's world, demons are treated more like inter-dimensional "aliens" than the outright evil-evil Buffy dealt with in her series. I think this allowed the writers to be more "grey" in their approach to a definition for evil, and makes more sense considering how a truly horrific character on Angel always turned out to be a well-cut lawyer in Armani.

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                • #9
                  Lindsey was always changing sides, depending on his own interests and he had a lot of opportunities to change. Lorne was right, he (Lindsey) was never part of the solution.

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                  • #10
                    Yes, he remained a liability - after all, in Blind Date he at first does not want children to be murdered, but then, when offered a better job, he readily gives in to temptation and continues the work of W&H in a leading position, knowing fully well that he will be responsible for more cases like this. In Dead End he turns his back on W&H at last, but his main interest is not to do good, from then on, but rather to get back at the Senior Partners - and also, to get back at Angel.
                    This shows that Lindsey's desire never was to do good. He does have certain qualms about his work, which shows he "ranks higher morally" than Lilah, for example, but he is driven by revenge. In reaction to the Senior Partners' evil, he does not want to fight them to fight that evil, but rather to get back at them for screwing with him.
                    Had he truly wished to serve a good purpose, he might have, though grudgingly, teamed up with Angel of his own accord instead of attempting to kill him during You're Welcome.

                    And that Lorne agrees to kill him, as Nina points out, shows that his aura contains much darkness, to put it dramatically. I doubt Lorne would agree to a job like thatif he saw redemption ahead.
                    And yes, Kana, it may not always be perfectly accurate. But usually it is, and Lorne is able to glimpse what is important. I feel he would have picked up a "good guy vibe".

                    Of course having Lindsey murdered isn't right in any way, but in the situation it's understandable, and possibly necessary, in my opinion.
                    Sin is what I feast upon
                    I'm forging my crematorium
                    Your tomb is waiting here for you
                    Welcome to my ritual

                    -Judas Priest, Death

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                    • #11
                      I feel Lindsey is a great character, and one that shows a lot of our own human weaknesses, and desires. Lindsey knew what his company was doing and he just looked the other way just to have the luxury and power his dad never had. Like he says in Blind Date: "to be stepped in or do the stepping. And I decided not to be stepped in".

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                      • #12
                        A well-drawn character definitely, yes. Proves that even a negative character can have facettes.
                        Sin is what I feast upon
                        I'm forging my crematorium
                        Your tomb is waiting here for you
                        Welcome to my ritual

                        -Judas Priest, Death

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I liked Lindsey alot, but i see why Angel had him killed. There was no way they could risk letting him live, as Lindsey proved many times he cant be trusted. And Lorne 'heard him sing', implying he knew he would ultimatly betray them.

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                          • #14
                            In fact, Lindseys disgust that *a flunky* killed him and his dying words 'Angel kills me' tell me that not only did he expect some sort of battle to the death with Angel, but he wanted it. Lindsey seemed to think he was Angels big rival, but in reality Angel saw him as nothing more than a pest. Last words=Lindsey was always planning on taking Angel out.

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                            • #15
                              I think it was necessary. It wasn't good though, I didn't like it. It made me really sad, like choked up sad that Lorne did it. This bright beacon of cheerfulness had been permanently marred by his actions here. Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't see Lorne kill anything before this. I can see why this was done though, his summation was probably correct, he was never going to be part of the solution.

                              However my real problem with this death was that I thought it was rushed and not a good addition. By my own estimation, I thought it was about the time that Andy Hallett was diagnosed with his heart condition. So I thought that it had been slung in there to give closure on his character to enable him to leave without recourse. I hated that it was Lorne to do the killing, Wes maybe would have upset me less.

                              Also I must have been a bit dense the first time I watched this ep because I never saw Angel tell Lorne to kill him or got that vibe off him at all. I thought it was a complete surprise, a shock and a horror
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                              • #16
                                I agree with you. Killing Lindsey totally changed Lorne. I feel that up to S5, Lorne was very joyous, very optimistic and when things were down, he would cheer people up. But since Fred dying up to Lindsey?s death, he changed. He became a darker person, he saw what W&H was doing to the team and he said to Angel that he was done, after doing that he would leave and never return.

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                                • #17
                                  I think that the episodes that were about Lorne (Life of a Party & the one in Las Vegas) showed pretty much that Lorne is using is happy face a lot while he is not that happy. I've the feling that Lorne was already darker in the first episodes of season 5, he just acted like he was happy.

                                  He sold his soul to the devil, and not tosave his son, best friend, knowledge or because he thought it was the right thing. But he did it for the showbizz, to meet famous people, not really a good reason to sell your soul. And Lorne is not stupid, the man knows a lot about the universe, good & evil etc. It must have hounted him.

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                                  • #18
                                    Yes. Lorne was a very different demon after the death of Fred, the person in the world I think he was closest too was fred because of her innocence and charm. I think their shared persecution in Pylea also adds to that relationship. They both lived their and suffered persecution at the hands of the Deathwok clan.

                                    This is perhaps the one decision of Joss Whedons that I cannot live with .

                                    Also, does any one know whether it was added to the script to allow Andy Hallett to leave or was it always there?
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                                    • #19
                                      I only know that Alexis Denisof asked Joss to kill Wesley off after they found out that Ats wouldn't live on after season 5. I'm not sure about AH, but if his health was bad at the time, I can see why they would've done it.

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                                      • #20
                                        I don't know just how bad his health was but Angel finished in 04? and AH RIP died in March 09 after a 5 year battle with heart disease. Which brought on congestive heart failure primarily the result of the spreading of a dental infection that caused a hospitalisation.

                                        I meant it was just an initial reaction/thought about that episode which ruined the whole episode for me which could have been an amazing finale
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