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  • What is/was Ats about?

    Let's help Joss because clearly he has no clue;

    Originally posted by Joss Whedon
    I still haven't figure out "Angel," though. I still haven't figured out what the show was supposed to be about.
    source


    Ats was for me about the fight, about never giving up and go on even when you can't win because it's the fight what matters. To go on, no matter what happened in the past or in the present. Isn't that what NFA was in the end? They won because they choose to fight even when they couldn't win the fight. People became heroes because they fought, not because who they were once upon a time or because they saved the world many times. But the intention to fight was what made the Ats characters heroes. Ats was a lot more tragic than the BtVS was, how many times did team Angel really stop the world from ending? Once or twice?

    Also Ats has another theme in redemption.
    Last edited by Nina; 11-02-09, 11:57 PM.


  • #2
    It only goes to my feeling that Angel was never of any interest to Joss at all. It was David Greenwalt's project and he who created all the themes that drove the character (he also created Angel's entire backstory--including all the soul, gypsy curse and Darla stuff).

    In fact, it's been stated that Joss didn't even really understand why people were empathizing with the vampires at the beginning of BtVS. It was never his intention to make a good vampire (his idea was that Xander, the every-guy, would get the extraordinary girl). He only wanted to use vampires as allegories for Buffy's problems. The in-universe mythology of the show wasn't as important to him. Popularity kept characters like Angel and Spike on the shows well-past their intended runs. David Greenwalt set up Angel and Marti Noxon was responsible for a lot of Spike and Drusilla's relationship.

    Joss is very focused on agenda-based themes like feminism. While I'm sure he understands the idea of redemption, it's not something that he feels the need to create a message with. That seems to have been more Greenwalt than Joss. I get the feeling that Joss doesn't get AtS because it was never something that told the messages he wants to tell. Joss has been putting down on Angel and AtS a lot lately, hasn't he?

    I can't help but think that there is a political gap between Joss Whedon (big liberal) and David Greenwalt/Tim Minear (both conservatives). The Jasmine arc strikes me as a pretty conservative arc (anti-Utopian world peace/pro-free will and letting humans decide their own fates no matter what dumb or smart choices they make--the whole point is that they get to choose) and then there's the whole capitalist theme that always seemed pretty at odds with BtVS with the exception of Anya.

    The show wasn't about pushing any boundaries, though, which is also different than Joss would probably like. That's not the point. It was just a very traditional hero's journey/redemption story. More and more I just keep feeling like Joss doesn't go outside of his box about which themes are worth exploring.

    Let's face it... Joss' name on the show was fairly honorary because of him having created the universe that houses the characters. He always was far more interested in BtVS and Firefly. Joss' biggest input on AtS was a few of the plotline ideas like Fred/Illyria (which was at a point where AtS was the only show of his on air). I'm not sure, but I think Joss also came up with the idea of making Darla come back pregnant. Joss wasn't really there as much with the day-to-day writing, though. Joss' fingerprints are mostly felt on season 5, even though season 4 is actually apparently his favorite season. It was mostly Greenwalt's project and characters that he had developed, however. I've always gotten that impression.

    The allegory of the show is that of an alcoholic who is always a step away from being tempted by another drink. In fact, Vast's song "Temptation" was a big clue about what the writers were thinking when they made AtS. Ensouled vampirism is treated as an allegory for the recovering alcoholic on the constant edge of relapse. That alcoholic is working on redemption. However, the show also took up the themes of being pro-humanity and pro-free will. And then there's the theme of exploring adulthood, selflessness, sacrifice, taking responsibility for your actions and supporting a family, while BtVS is about the issues of growing up. People in AtS always fail over and over again and pay for their mistakes, and yet, their humanity keeps them trying to do the right thing no matter how many times they fall down. AtS is a tribute to imperfect humans.

    BtVS is about empowerment--the people are meant to succeed in the end. AtS is for the screw-ups who pay for everything and constantly fail, but keep getting back up despite it because they still want to try and make life better for others even if they must sacrifice to do it. You'll notice that AtS' cast is completely made up of the rejects of society and the people that get hurt or damaged. BtVS used to be about rejects, but the Scoobies, themselves, started deciding who could or couldn't be in their private club (the rejection of Jonathan, in particular). AtS was constantly taking the downtrodden into its family of collective screw-ups--anyone who was willing to struggle for redemption and helping the helpless.

    I also think the song "You Always Hurt The One You Love" is another song indicative of the show. It fits the characters on AtS to a tee.

    Personally, I think AtS had much headier themes and a deeper, more profound message, but that's just me.

    It's weird he says that, though, because Joss is quoted as saying he understood what they were doing with AtS when they made the episode Eternity.
    Last edited by NileQT87; 12-02-09, 01:44 AM.

    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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    • #3
      It only goes to my feeling that Angel was never of any interest to Joss at all. It was David Greenwalt's project and he who created all the themes that drove the character (he also created Angel's entire backstory--including all the soul, gypsy curse and Darla stuff).
      Oh I totally agree. I've always thought that. Apart from a few episodes that have caught Joss eye and which he wanted to experiment with, I pretty much think he wasn't that interested in this series or even truly understood what Angels character was actually about..

      I often felt the show developed despite him, rather with with him.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
        Joss has been putting down on Angel and AtS a lot lately, hasn't he?
        He didn't put Ats down. The exact quote was that he never got what Ats was about "but it worked." It was when he was talking about 'Dollhouse' and how it isn't as clear either.

        Let's face it... Joss' name on the show was fairly honorary because of him having created the universe that houses the characters.
        I don't think you can go that far? Tim Minear stated that Joss always broke down the stories with him and whilst Miner and Greenwalt were massive parts of Btvs, neither stuck it out till the end. Joss didn't play as big of a part in Ats as he did Btvs or 'Firefly' but he played a bigger part than his name just being "honorary" in the credits.

        I can see what Joss means. Ats had so many different themes and ideas in the series that it was sometimes hard to see what was the one consistent message. It incorporated so many different ideas and angles, and even the way the show worked- it was meant to be a lot more standalone Joss has claimed but it eventually didn't happen. I never felt it harmed the show but I've always felt there's been many different ideas in the show and it wasn't as clear as Btvs what they were trying to achieve. But as he said, "it worked."
        Last edited by vampmogs; 12-02-09, 01:09 AM.

        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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        • #5
          I actually like that Ats didn't have one single clear message, because for some reason, that resonated with me more. I suppose this is why I've always haboured an affinity with Btvs season six, because it was kind of 'systematically unsystematic'.

          To me Btvs felt sort of like it went full circle (as far as Tv series is concerned) and Ats kind of spiralled outwardly which of course never bothered me. If one show is about certain aspects of life then the other simply engenders another side and while Joss stated that to him Btvs is about life itself, I think that can extend to the Buffyverse in general, sometimes the journey can lead you farther than you expected and ideas can blossom in the most organic of senses. This is why, personally, Ats will always be closer to my heart.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by kana View Post
            I actually like that Ats didn't have one single clear message, because for some reason, that resonated with me more. I suppose this is why I've always haboured an affinity with Btvs season six, because it was kind of 'systematically unsystematic'.

            To me Btvs felt sort of like it went full circle (as far as Tv series is concerned) and Ats kind of spiralled outwardly which of course never bothered me. If one show is about certain aspects of life then the other simply engenders another side and while Joss stated that to him Btvs is about life itself, I think that can extend to the Buffyverse in general, sometimes the journey can lead you farther than you expected and ideas can blossom in the most organic of senses. This is why, personally, Ats will always be closer to my heart.
            Yeah I can agree with that (though I do prefer Btvs) and I think that's more or less what Joss meant when he said "it worked." Because it did, I love your "systematically unsystematic" comment because that encapsulates my feelings towards Ats in general, but I think it worked for that particular series. I can't share your enthusiasm for how Btvs season six felt like this because I've always felt Btvs worked far better when it had a system and a tighter story and stuck to it’s general seasonal formula. Season six felt like a bit of a mess to me best demonstrated with it’s season finale ‘Grave’ which IMO was all over the place and didn’t feel like it was an episode worked up to all season like most Btvs series finales do. But for Ats I felt it worked using this approach.

            It took me a while to appreciate this though, when I first watched Ats on TV I felt that it was never really "going anywhere" because I was very used to Buffy's way of structuring the show. I still think I prefer Btvs' way but I've come to appreciate Ats and it's way now as well. There's a hidden beauty in its inconsistency.
            Last edited by vampmogs; 12-02-09, 02:33 AM.

            ~ Banner by Nina ~

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            • #7
              Okay, I've been searching that interview. He never said "it worked"--he practically said the exact opposite. What interview are you talking about?

              "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
              "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

              Comment


              • #8
                Pretty much everything has been said already, guilt and redemption, responsibility, compassion, selflessness/sacrifice, overcoming one's own interest to help others...

                Kana, I ca agree with the "systematically unsystematic" comment as well, it never has any blunt "in the face" messages (or hardly ever).


                Oh, and sorry to pick out a fairly insignificant detail, but
                Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                The Jasmine arc strikes me as a pretty conservative arc (anti-Utopian world peace/pro-free will and letting humans decide their own fates no matter what dumb or smart choices they make--the whole point is that they get to choose)
                Do I understand this correctly as, roughly put, free will = conservative while liberal would mean putting an utopian world peace controlled by mind control over free will? Er, sorry, but the very word "liberal" has the Latin word "libertas" in it. The liberal insurrections throughout Europe of 1848 were all about free will, free thought, free speech etc.
                This is not a specifically conservative element at all, in my opinion. Pretty much every political faction would support free will.
                Sin is what I feast upon
                I'm forging my crematorium
                Your tomb is waiting here for you
                Welcome to my ritual

                -Judas Priest, Death

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                • #9
                  Off-topic, but...
                  Spoiler:
                  Modern liberal thinking in America is big government and even European socialism. The words used for "liberal" and "conservative" with their roots is irrelevant in politics. And it's true. Socialism, which is a rather lightened up form of communism, is the form of government that thinks it can do things better for you rather than let you do them your way on your own by your own free will. Socialism doesn't let the capitalists fail or win big when they need to; rather, it bails out the failures (notice I said the word "bail") and punishes those who succeeded more than others.

                  It's not conservatives that ramble on and on about world peace and how great it would be if we were living in John Lennon's "Imagine" with no possessions, everyone living for today, nothing to live or die for, etc... To a conservative, that song sounds exactly like Jasmine's nightmare world where everyone is exactly the same and basically happy meat puppets for a dictator (which that form of government always leads to). And the great mind-f*ck is that Jasmine's world would in fact save more lives in the long run, but at what price?

                  The Jasmine arc really does sum up what the ultimate form of communism would be if there were no dissenters. It's humanly impossible. That kind of system falls apart if not everyone is drinking the kool-aid, as we saw when Fred & co. stopped being shiny, happy people. Jasmine even had her followers hunt after the dissenters.

                  I can't help but think that whoever really put together the message of the Jasmine arc knew what they were using an allegory for. It's the ultimate free will message.

                  What is interesting is that AtS had two very strong conservative voices (though probably very subdued)--which makes it a rarity among Hollywood media. The show certainly has its liberal moments, too, and plenty of them, but nothing as profound as the entire message of the Jasmine arc.


                  Nonetheless, I'm still wondering why Joss made a comment about not getting what AtS is about. I think shows should explore many things, not just one thing. Life isn't just about one thing. BtVS didn't just explore one theme either. And why would BtVS' themes for a different group of people be more important than AtS' themes for another group of people? Personally, the theme of outsiders--both people who are atoning for mistakes and those who no longer fit with the rest of society after having been victimized like Fred--is much stronger for me on AtS (again, I've always had a problem with the treatment of Jonathan).

                  In fact, Fred's situation is so freakishly close to mine (a nerdy, smart person being somewhere abusive in another dimension/country that you are pretty much trapped in--my Pylea was Casa by the Sea, isolationism and building just another cave again afterwards, people working on you like a project to bring you out of your shell--I relate to both Angel and Fred on that one, the wonderful parents and becoming a very different person after the experience that tends to relate better to all kinds of other outcasts), that I would say that AtS is a much more personal show to me than BtVS in many ways.

                  When you are building yourself another cave all over again, you can't wait for the handsome man on a horse to come rescue you from the monsters like in a fairy tale; you're the one that has to save yourself. That scene is by far the most personal scene in the entire franchise for me. It also goes with the whole relapse theme.

                  Angel is the other character that has a few experiences I relate to--almost giving up to suicide on the hilltop in Amends is a big one and learning to fight on. I've been pretty close to that moment. I got a very similar epiphany.

                  Much of BtVS (with exceptions of certain things) is the show where I live out my non-existent romantic fantasies and live out the high school, prom and friends experiences that I never had. The Prom always inspires that. I pretty much consider that episode my prom. Just insert middle school for "high school is Hell" and I relate to that.

                  AtS is the show that means more to me personally. Even the situation of being like the Fred-archetype surrounded by people who are trying, but often failing to put their lives back together and become better people is something I relate to (let's just say that Casa by the Sea is a place where I was surrounded by recovering drug-addicts, sex-addicts, anorexics, bulimics, etc... even an Amish girl who wore pants! I was the depressed, obsessive, socially-awkward and naive Asperger's Syndrome girl who was on the verge of giving up.).

                  While I can get at early BtVS with the "high school is Hell" theme and some of the loneliness/losing friends stuff, AtS' continuation gets to me more than BtVS'. Also, Angel tends to learn from his depressions and epiphanies and that appeals to me more than a character like Buffy who doesn't seem to be learning from any epiphanies. AtS is willing to deal with more of the characters' faults and in stronger ways. BtVS' continuous failed epiphanies and ignoring consequences continuously reminds me of all the girls I knew who only half-heartedly played the game of improving themselves and relied on being well-liked, only to fall right back into their crap because they never really dealt. The AtS writers removed the pillows that the BtVS characters are always padded with.

                  I probably get a very different reading out of AtS than many people. There are aspects of Angel's character and Fred's character that mirror myself. Perhaps some season 1 Willow, too. I'm sure everyone has a character who they have personal attachments to because of their experiences.

                  What you get out of a story is usually influenced by the baggage you bring to it. Everybody is going to relate differently to the exact same events and that's why you get such wildly diverging opinions on things.

                  Joss is no different. When he approaches something, he's looking for different things to be told than someone else. You can pick out different events that reflect different writers. Marti Noxon is an example of someone who put some stuff from her life into the shows. So while AtS' messages might not reflect Joss as much as BtVS', the messages of AtS do probably reflect the people who wrote them.
                  Last edited by NileQT87; 13-02-09, 10:02 AM.

                  "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                  "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Angel was always about doing the right thing, searching for redemption, even if in the end there is no shiny reward and Angel learns that. He and his gang keep on fighting to make life a little less unbearable and help people in the process and that why he rejects the Sanshu prophecy altogether.

                    About Joss, I disagree. I admit he wasn?t as commited as in Buffy, but he was involved on Angel. I?ve been listening to the commentaries on Angel and all of them say that Joss always had ideas for a particular season, episode or even writing specific dialogue or scene. He was always involved with it.

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                    • #11
                      I agree that Joss was around, many times you hear that he wrote scenes or gave feedback. But I also agree that Ats is the series that he likes the less. You see it again in the comics, he has plans for many comics and other projects. But he has no time to check out Brian's new plans for Angel and Spike. He is really busy, and Ats is the series he spends the less time with.

                      I ever saw a post (I can't remember where) that compared Joss to a father with the series as childeren. That BtVS was his pretty and sweet daughter who got all the attention. Ats was the little brother who had to grow up with less attention and then Joss got a new kid who got all his love, Firefly. BtVS couldn't stand on her own legs and became a troubled girl while Ats was strong enough to keep on going.

                      It's a bit the feeling I got as well. But I don't really care, the only negative side is the whole canon debate. Brian has a great touch and he seems to love the characters and wants to tell great stories with them.

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                      • #12
                        The allegory of the show is that of an alcoholic who is always a step away from being tempted by another drink.
                        Yes, this is how I've always taken it - but I thought Joss said that too? Or did I just dream that?

                        For me, it's the struggle of someone who will always be what they are (give or take a shanshu or two ) - an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, whether they're off or on the wagon, and a vampire is always a vampire (ok, except when they aren't, but it's their steady state at least).

                        AtS asks the question - what do you do when you can never actually get "better"? The answer, if a drama can ever be said to be an answer (which I don't think it can, it can't be reduced like that) is - "You do what you can." Even in a world where doing good isn't always or even ever possible, you can do better

                        Yeah, maybe that's the message of Angel: "Fail better."

                        But AtS isn't just about captain fang. It's about a city, and the way of life that goes with that city, and its seamy underbelly. It's about the flotsam and jetsam of LA, from demons to rogue demon hunters or rich bitches who are actually poor/actresses who can't act. It's about the city and how easy it is to get lost in it, and how even your friend won't always help you find yourself - or even always be your friends. Sometimes they go evil. Sometimes they betray you (whether they mean to or not). Sometimes they die.

                        AtS is more of a structured, less improvisatory universe than BtVS in some ways - there are Powers That Be, there are plans and prophecies and interferences from organised, corporate evil (rather than individual villains). AtS is more about The Man in its supernatural form, and the universe that Angel is always butting up against is one that has a lot of inevitabilities. A tragic universe. It's more classical than BtVS - I find AtS easiest to understand when contrasted with Buffy when thinking about its metaphysics and it's overall structure, though that doesn't go for assessing all of its qualities. The character dynamics, I don't find all that helpful to compare with Buffy somehow - it's got a very different flavour, but not an opposing one. Just different.

                        EDIT:

                        I can't help but think that whoever really put together the message of the Jasmine arc knew what they were using an allegory for. It's the ultimate free will message.
                        I don’t agree with you on the political interpretation of that arc – whatever the intentions of the writers, the story can be read apolitically, imo, in terms of the importance of free will to all of us, not just with reference to government (though that may well have been in the writers’ minds). On screen, Jasmine can be a symbol of many things – of giving into the easy path, or of something political, or of ambiguous evil, and the things we have to give up (happiness, peace) in order to *fight* evil. In a sense, Jasmine represents something very personal to Angel (and other “champions”) – Jasmine offers Angel an experience like the normal human being in the street, where most of your daily life is all la la la with no awareness of the monsters that lurk in the shadows, and no need to fight for your life each day.

                        Much of BtVS (with exceptions of certain things) is the show where I live out my non-existent romantic fantasies and live out the high school, prom and friends experiences that I never had. The Prom always inspires that. I pretty much consider that episode my prom. Just insert middle school for "high school is Hell" and I relate to that.
                        Funny, a lot of people have said that Middle School is worse than high school. When does middle school go up til?

                        For me, BtVS’s appeal was a) the wit/play of ideas and language and b) the imagery and the subversions. I could never relate to it in a direct way, because California’s very forieign to my experience (Sunshine? What is this Sunshine of which you speak? BtVs is full of people who look nothing like me and essentially speak a foreign language… but that’s part of the appeal. It reaches the universal via the incredibly specific, through individuals.

                        AtS features individuals too, but it’s more on the side of archetypes. As Nile said, it’s a more traditional story (or she said something similar, apologies if I’m misquoting you!), it’s the hero’s journey. While BtVs is more about reassessing what a hero is, and how they fit into *this* world, the everyday world. AtS is set in the unreal world of Hollywood and gangsters (ok, that is a real world, but you know what I mean – it’s not the world most of us live in). In larger-than-life Hollywood, you have larger-than-life archetypes, whether whore (Darla) or Bitch (Lilah) or Troubled Hero (Angel) or Hot nerd (Fred) etc etc.
                        Last edited by Wolfie Gilmore; 13-02-09, 04:00 PM.


                        -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

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                        • #13
                          I don't know if you can say that Joss doesn't care about Angel or was not involved in the series. If you go by the dvd commentaries and written comments of the writers, actors and directors; Joss would do rewrites and tell them how to shoot scenes. He would do rewrites for other writers. He definitely had a hand in the show. I think that Firefly took a lot of Joss' attention away from away from Buffy and Angel in the later season. I beleive that Joss felt he had capable people who could handle those shows, but he still had input.

                          "I still haven't figure out "Angel," though. I still haven't figured out what the show was supposed to be about."

                          I would have to hear this in context. This does not have to be taken in a negative light. If a writer is doing his job, his work should take on a life of its own. So, each time he revisits it, he may see something different. I love how in the commentaries, you can tell the writers or actors have a new revelation as they are doing the comentary for an episode. That's when you really know you have created art.

                          As far as the comic is concerned, I have to say that it is definitely Brian Lynch's baby. It will be interesting to see how the Angel comic goes forward without his voice. I am glad that he helming the new Spike comic though.

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                          • #14
                            I differ to Nile in that Buffy wasn't so much a "fantasy" to me but a pretty accurate portrayal of my social setting, my high school experiences and to some level feeling different from all my friends even though I love them dearly.

                            It touched on all the things I "lived through" and can relate to. Wether it be having a very tight bond with a couple of my friends which for better or worse is pretty much unbreakable by outsiders or feeling as if whilst I'm very much similar to my friends I'm also very different. Though one thing I did enjoy about End of Days that Buffy pointed out "I guess everybody is alone" because when I took that POV I started to consider that my friends could have been feeling exactly the same way, and I felt more "generic" which is a good thing.

                            I even related a hell of a lot to the Buffy/Faith situation with someone who I was once friends with, but sadly that relationship ended. Without sounding too arrogant for whatever reason they grew rather jealous of what I had and what they didn’t feel they had, and just like with Buffy/Faith there was jealousy on my part to all the things they allowed themselves to be but what I restrained myself from becoming. They enticed me to join our own kind of “dark side” and when I eventually pulled back from it after it went too far, it put a strain on the relationship and eventually we had a massive falling out, sadly with that friend pretty much going off the rails in more than one way and having pretty much them lashing out at me and all the people I cared about and they once associated with. It even had the initial “my parents love you so much” dilemma that Buffy had in ‘Faith, Hope & Trick’ when I felt as if I’m the only one seeing the real person and everyone else, including my parents have been sucked in by something that looked healthy and positive from afar but not when you got up really close.

                            So really for me it was fun to see a relationship I can identity with so much just amped up and made more epic thanks to the world Buffy lived in.

                            I don't have many connections with Ats like I do with Btvs in that way but I relate to Ats and the moral and ethical dilemmas. I've always understood where Angel was coming from in his most murky decisions, I'll readily admit I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a good chance that if in Angel's position I'd have locked those lawyers in with Darla/Dru too, or gone to Wolfram and Hart for someone I truly loved. That's where I connect with Angel and Ats in general. And I feel as I am getting older my life is getting far and far more “unsystematic” which is basically as Kana excellently pointed out, Ats to a T so I relate with the show in the sense of all these different POV’s and experiences hitting me from all angles and trying to muddle through it all.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nina View Post
                              Let's help Joss because clearly he has no clue;


                              source


                              Ats was for me about the fight, about never giving up and go on even when you can't win because it's the fight what matters. To go on, no matter what happened in the past or in the present. Isn't that what NFA was in the end? They won because they choose to fight even when they couldn't win the fight. People became heroes because they fought, not because who they were once upon a time or because they saved the world many times. But the intention to fight was what made the Ats characters heroes. Ats was a lot more tragic than the BtVS was, how many times did team Angel really stop the world from ending? Once or twice?

                              Also Ats has another theme in redemption.
                              Wow, I can't believe Joss said that! As you said, "fighting the good fight" no matter how hard it gets, no matter how hopeless it seems, sacrificing yourself for it, and searching for redemption are the main themes of the show--almost everyone on the show is redeemed at least a little bit, and makes sacrifices for the greater good, even the old villain Darla, who gives her life for her son and then acts as mouthpiece for the PTB, etc. If Joss can't see that I think he's blind...because even if there have been other themes interwoven in, those themes of fighting for good, self-sacrifice, and redemption were still always present in one form or another....

                              And Nile I disagree about your Jasmine interpretation--as Wolfie says, it can be interpreted in an apolitical manner, and if you want to interpret it politically you could just as well say it's representing societies in which scared, uhappy people give up their civil liberties to a right-wing government for the sake of "greater national security" against an outside threat, kind of like in "V for Vendetta" or in many of the right-wing dictatorships of the 20th century. That kind of lack of freedom is not unique to communist/the left extreme of the spectrum systems....
                              Promise that you'll return to me.

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                              • #16
                                Didn't the show make jabs at the party in power at the time? They certainly did the president,

                                Cordy: I remember who's president and I kinda wish I didn't

                                and of course there's Joss being quoted that if he was stuck on an island Bush would be one of the three people he'd take with him, "so they could eat him." I'm not sure the Jasmine arc was designed to take jabs at the "left." But as others have pointed out, it works on all different levels so you can take out of it whatever you want, the message is pretty much always going to come back to the same thing. I'm just not sure I could see the writers coming from that perspective, which doesn't matter at all anyway, it's art and what that art represents is completely up to the viewer, there's no right or wrong interpretation.

                                When Joss said he doesn't know what it is about I think maybe because there were so many themes. Given Btvs and even Firefly seem to have a couple of themes that are really focused on whereas Ats draws inspiration from a whole variety of different ideas and concepts, perhaps Joss has trouble fitting it into a mould as such or encapsulating the show into this one thing, that's probably what I meant. He wrote some of these episodes after all, that include the alcoholic metaphor and themes of redemption, he wrote 'Amends' which is basically the pitch for Ats is rife with both concepts, and he also c-wrote ‘Sanctuary’ when Faith is basically the poster girl for Angel’s entire mission! He must be aware of the themes mentioned here, I just think he has trouble describing the show in it's entirety.

                                Oh and Nile I'm still muddling through interviews looking for the "but it worked line" because I did seem him say that somewhere else, I never went into Nina's link because I assumed it was the same interview I read only days earlier but it wasn't. I'm just having a hard time going through all the endless Whedonesque articles on Whedon and Dollhouse to find what I'm looking for, but I'm not insane I tell ya!
                                Last edited by vampmogs; 14-02-09, 04:17 AM.

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                                • #17
                                  Greenwalt and Minear are known conservatives. Whedon is a known liberal. It was a liberal-leaning, but actually diverse staff. Same with the actors. Most were on the left, but there are a few known right-leaners. Fury is apparently a fiscally conservative and socially moderate Democrat. So it's not always completely far-left all around. Actor-wise, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Emma Caulfield (fiscal only) and especially Adam Baldwin lean right. Robia LaMorte is a born-again Christian.

                                  That's why you had contradictions like Cordelia bashing the Chirac-era French in the early episodes and suddenly bashing Bush later on.

                                  It wasn't all one direction.
                                  Last edited by NileQT87; 14-02-09, 04:48 AM.

                                  "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                                  "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                                    Greenwalt and Minear are known conservatives. Whedon is a known liberal. It was a liberal-leaning, but actually diverse staff. Same with the actors. Most were on the left, but there are a few known right-leaners.

                                    That's why you had contradictions like Cordelia bashing the Chirac-era French in the early episodes and suddenly bashing Bush later on.

                                    It wasn't all one direction.
                                    That's good then! Diversity is important and regardless of my own political views I wouldn't be interested in a show that just bashed the hell out of the "right" it's also important to write characters with all different kinds of view points as well.

                                    But weren't both Tim and David off the show by the time of Jasmine? Or am I getting that wrong? I'd be pretty confident for sure that David certainly was, not positive about Tim though?

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                                    • #19
                                      Mogs, you're right that Joss said he never knew what Angel was really about and it did just fine. It was at NYCC and it's on the Buffyfest video of the panel.
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                                      • #20
                                        Thankyou so much Emmie! I would have given you rep for that but I have to share it around some more apparently! I was beginning to think I'd imagined it! I could have sworn that I *read* it and didn't watch it, perhaps I read a transcript or something or perhaps I was just very confused!

                                        I think it shows that Joss wasn't bashing Ats or coming down on it, he's obviously proud of what they achieved.

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