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In a matter of speaking we both will, whether she likes it or not.

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  • In a matter of speaking we both will, whether she likes it or not.

    Wesley's parting words to Spike as he walks off into the Sunset and Spike's eyes go so very wide. Who is "we", Fred, Cordelia, or him and Spike? There seems to be an inference that Wesley's role in the afterlife will be watching over Illyria?
    Is he with Fred or Cordelia? Any thoughts?

  • #2
    "We" is him and Spike. Very nice of Brian to drop that crumb for us hopeless Wesley/Illyria fans.

    And yeah, he seems to be with Fred.

    Wesley: -- They need to return to the very last moment before all of this started. Exactly how it was. Exactly as we were.
    Spike: But you were --
    Wesley: Yes. But so was she.

    (set made by Francy for me)

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    • #3
      I don't take that as him figuring he'll be with Fred, just an honest statement by Wes that he didn't mind what being let out of Hell-A meant for him because Fred was dead, after all, and he therefore didn't mind.

      I wonder if he encoded himself on Illyria somehow. I mean, she seems stuck with *his* memories of her now, not just what George showed her, but they are part of her her own memories.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        I don't take that as him figuring he'll be with Fred, just an honest statement by Wes that he didn't mind what being let out of Hell-A meant for him because Fred was dead, after all, and he therefore didn't mind.
        Good point.

        I wonder if he encoded himself on Illyria somehow. I mean, she seems stuck with *his* memories of her now, not just what George showed her, but they are part of her her own memories.
        Brian Lynch: And now, every single person (and other assorted creature in Los Angeles) remembers EVERYTHING that happened. From Illyria having all of Wesley and Spike's memories of Fred in her head, to the Powerful Demon Lords remembering Angel is the one that blowed them up real good, to the citizens of LA knowing who Angel and company are, to Connor realizing his first love was a traitor.

        (set made by Francy for me)

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        • #5
          In a sense, Illyria being encoded with Wesley's idealization of Fred means she has been inundated with Wes' passion for the mission, the importance of helping the helpless, Fred had come to mean to Wes so much more than she was, she was his muse, his heroine, the personification of good. Illyria has a lot to live up to. Would Fred have been able to live up to Wesley's expectations if they had both lived?

          The matter of Wesley moving on carries that wonderful ambiguity of some of Whedonverse' endings, we don't know where he went or who he is with, but we do know that in some sense or other he will continue to be Illyria's Watcher. Illyria herself has the potential to actually become the "woman of his dreams," in ways that Fred never actually was.

          The tragedy of it is that she will have to do so without him, just like Willow had to continue on without Tara, but still always will have that desire to act in a way that makes her worthy of the love that Tara had for her.

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          • #6
            Brian Lynch: The line about Wesley and Spike keeping an eye on Illyria was referring to the fact that their memories of Fred are in her noggin.

            Huh.

            (set made by Francy for me)

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            • #7
              Huh, like you need a splainy?
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              • #8
                It doesn't make sense to me if that's all Wesley meant, actually -- the line in Issue #16 definitely sounded like he had another move, some other way of helping than what had happened the issue before. He walked into Illyria's body twice, after all. Figured it was for a reason.
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                • #9
                  For what reason? Do you think that Wes is inside Illyria from walking through her?

                  Couldn't it just be seen as symbolic of the fact that all of Wes' memories of Fred are inside Illyria now. Thus, Wes is inside her. Metaphorically. And I'm unable to say that in a non-dirty way.
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                  • #10
                    Yeah, but... structurally, I don't get it. We already knew she had their memories of Fred. Their exchange seems a bit wasted just to reiterate that part. I figured he had a hunch Spike would, by choice, keep an eye on Illyria. And that they both, meaning Wes as well, will be doing so. I took that as Wes having figured out some other thing he could do.
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                    • #11
                      I think that Wes circled Illyria's corpse hoping against hope that somehow Fred's spirit would be there awaiting him, even though he repeated several times thru out After the Fall, that Fred was gone. Then his time was up, with Wolfram and Hart's control failing, he had no contract holding him there, it was either move on or become stuck to the physical plane like Dennis, Cordy's ghost.

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                      • #12
                        Is there any further hint at Fred's fate? I mean, she's dead, duh, but what became of her? In S5 they say at some point that "her soul has been destroyed" if I recall that correctly (please forgive the relatively new fan if it's not correctly quoted), but not only is that a horrible idea, but also... I somehow feel a soul is indestructible and truly immortal. Do we get any hint of that soul question again?
                        Sin is what I feast upon
                        I'm forging my crematorium
                        Your tomb is waiting here for you
                        Welcome to my ritual

                        -Judas Priest, Death

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                        • #13
                          Status quo is basically the same as in A Hole in the World. Wesley might have hinted at an afterlife with Fred with his last words in Issue #16 (see my first comment), and then again, he might have not (see King's first comment). Fred's dead; what happened to her soul is as open to interpretation as ever.

                          (set made by Francy for me)

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                          • #14
                            Thanks for your answer, Enisy.
                            Well, we may never find out.
                            Sin is what I feast upon
                            I'm forging my crematorium
                            Your tomb is waiting here for you
                            Welcome to my ritual

                            -Judas Priest, Death

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't think it is a Jossverse thing to make firm declarations in some areas, the afterlife seems to be one of them. Personally I think so much of what was Fred was used or consumed to make up Illyria that Fred as a conscious being does not exist. Just as Angel with or without soul cannot possibly be purely Liam, I believe Illyria , to her disgust, is pretty much a demon human hybrid. There seems to be enough essence of Fred in Illyria that both Spike and Wesley found themselves attracted, sympathetic, to her. Personally I was more thrilled to see the dragon and Illyria restored than Connor.

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                              • #16
                                No, there is no Fred as a conscious being anymore anywhere. She was destroyed resurrecting Illyria. What Illyria has are Fred's memories and now some of Spike and Wesley's memories of Fred. Illyria did quite a bit of talking about how memories make a person in Origin. However, Illyria is an entirely different being affected by memories of a person who no longer exists. And Fred isn't in Heaven either.

                                As for Angel. He IS Liam--the same conscious being that Liam was. That's how the soul works. That's why when Spike got his soul back he was talking more about William than Spike (he hardly was even feeling anything that Spike had done other than the AR--he was rambling about dropping his slate in the water, the chalk running and getting a caning from his headmaster--which only William would jabber about). When Liam was returned to his ex-body, he didn't remember what he had done and was in disbelief when the gypsy man told him that he had killed. It takes a while for the memories to come back and at first, the human ones appear to be much clearer until the demon's are sorted and added to the whole.

                                Angel is Liam with all of Angelus' memories and a human body filled like a parasite by a demon. Angel is Liam with Angelus speaking in his ear, but separate. Liam is more at odds with Angelus because Liam got a violent wake-up call. Spike is fairly at peace with William because they are both after the same thing--they want to be loved. Human-Darla and vampire-Darla actually have a similar desire to be loved--they are also not at odds with each other. Liam and Angelus don't desire the same thing. That's the difference.

                                The only time this has ever been foggy is season 2 BtVS because the gypsy curse is not justice and several characters had trouble seeing Liam and Angelus as separate beings including Angel, himself. Season 1 BtVS supports the separate beings theory and Orpheus shows Angelus and Liam as very separate beings. Jasmine also speaks about Angelus living inside Liam unable to act, drink, etc... Angel's view of himself is very congruent with Holtz's view of Angel being responsible for the crimes of Angelus because it was that body's hands who did those crimes. He remembers doing them, which fits in Wesley and Illyria's discussion of memories making the person. He didn't do them, but he remembers it like he did. He feels the desires and thirst of Angelus as if it were his own. He dreams about killing and relishes it. Angel feels both Liam's and Angelus' feelings probably at the same time, but the soul is Liam.

                                Actually, we have the Master referring to vampire demon souls. This also backs up the separate beings theory. Vampires do have souls--demon souls--but it replaces the human soul, who goes up in the ether. 'Soulless' is a misnomer; it actually means 'without a human soul'.

                                The blank newborn demon uses the memories of a person to form itself, which is why the person who is taken over is somewhat responsible for the personality the demon forms and then corrupts. One could very well feel guilt at all of one's worst qualities being twisted into the demon's persona.
                                NileQT87
                                The Dark Avenger
                                Last edited by NileQT87; 27-01-09, 08:53 AM.

                                "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                                "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                                • #17
                                  Well, yeah. The thing that bothers my nerdy mind is, was Fred's soul "overwritten" by Illyria's demon essence soul equivalent thingy and still is in there, underneath a thick blue layer of demon-y badness , or did it get "consumed" by Illyria and truly is no more? If choosing the first option, could the Fred part be "extracted" by some kind of magic, or was she permanently blended into Illyria?

                                  I think there never is any statement made in the 'verse about if souls, as the immortal essence of a being, can be destroyed or not. Personally I imagine they can't, not entirely (that would sort of destroy the soul concept, wouldn't it? ), but of course Joss would have the last say in that.
                                  Sin is what I feast upon
                                  I'm forging my crematorium
                                  Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                  Welcome to my ritual

                                  -Judas Priest, Death

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Both Halfreck and Fred's souls were destroyed. Halfreck's was immortal, too. There is no Heaven, Hell, ether or in-between. That was the whole tragedy of both of their deaths.

                                    Their souls were consumed and destroyed. Fred's was destroyed in the process of resurrecting Illyria and Halfreck's was traded for Anya's spell to be reversed.

                                    There's no ambiguity, unless you don't believe a canon that has been repeated in the show and further supported in the comics. It's text.
                                    NileQT87
                                    The Dark Avenger
                                    Last edited by NileQT87; 27-01-09, 02:44 PM.

                                    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                                    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Well 'never say never' and all that.

                                      Maybe further up the line If Joss and co think that they can get a good story out of it they might write a way around that.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                                        Both Halfreck and Fred's souls were destroyed.
                                        There's no ambiguity, unless you don't believe a canon that has been repeated in the show and further supported in the comics. It's text.
                                        I don't think Halfrek's soul was "destroyed" per say. D'Hoffryn said that he could resurect the people Anya killed, but it would cost the life and soul of a Vengance Demon. So he summoned Halfrek and she burst into flames. I don't think that the "cost" of her soul necissarily meant that it had to be destroyed, it's possible that it's just suffering in a hell dimension somewhere for all eternity. Or it's possible that D'Hoffryn was just being dramatic. Why would Anya voulenteer for such a thing if her soul was going to be destroyed permanently? Resurecting ten douchebags isn't worth the total anhiliation of your soul. Those ten douchebags might be dead but at least they still have their souls.

                                        As for Fred, all we have suggesting that her soul is destroyed is Dr. Sparow's word for it. He's a bad guy, so his word is questionable to begin with.

                                        In After the Fall, the fake-Fred blackmails Wesley into working for W&H because maybe he'll get to be with Fred in the afterlife. If Fred's soul was 100% destroyed, the idea of an afterlife with Fred wouldn't be a bargining chip.

                                        Also, in one of the early issues, Lorne mentions that Fred is lucky because she's in heaven while the rest of the fang-gang are suffering in hell.

                                        We've got several peices of contradicting information, but I'd think Lorne and the W&H conduit are more qualified to talk about the afterlife than Dr. Sparrow.

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