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  • Salvage

    So I'm doing a re-watch of AtS Season 4 and I'm up to Salvage. I always find it interesting when they reference Buffy or any of the other characters on BtVS. This scene in particular caught my attention:

    Angelus goes to bite the woman, but is interrupted when he overhears three other vampires talking in the street.

    VAMPIRE 3
    The slayer? You sure?

    VAMPIRE 4
    I just got word. She's in town.

    Angelus smiles and lets the woman go. He goes to a phone booth, dials.

    ANGELUS
    (to phone) Hi, Dawn. Yeah, it's me. Is your sister home? She is. (hangs up) It's the other one.
    After Angelus hangs up, he sighs and mutters the last line "It's the other one." It seemed like Angelus was disappointed that it *wasn't* Buffy. Anyone else catch that? The way he smiled when he heard the Slayer was in town, then immediately calls Buffy's house to do some recon on her. Then when he finds out it's Faith, he sighs and mutters about it being the "other" one.

    Anyone else agree that Angelus sounded disappointed that it wasn't Buffy in town?
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  • #2
    I never heard that as disappointment, I'm pretty sure he'd have been just as blase to hear that Buffy had gone to LA. I suppose it makes sense that he'd want another shot at Buffy, but to me, I didn't think he cared all that much. A sigh that it's Faith is just like "ah, yes, her particular set of issues".
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    • #3
      I'd say that too except for the smile on his face when he lets his prey go at the news of hearing the Slayer was in town. I think Angelus was looking forward to emotionally messing with Buffy again. And the way he says, "It's the other one". It's disappointment in that moment. And it's really not that subtle.

      Re-watch the scene when you get a chance. The way he goes from the vamped smile at the news the Slayer is in town to the scowl when he learns it's Faith and not Buffy. If he looked pissed off at first learning the Slayer was there, I'd say yeah it didn't matter to him which Slayer it was. But he's *happy* to hear the Slayer's in town. He's anticipating it. When he learns it's not Buffy he acts disgruntled at first. I'm sure he later realizes all the evil fun to be had with Faith and her issues, but his initial reactions are very telling.


      Just finished this episode and wanted to add that Boreanaz does a fantastic job with the subtlety and timing of his performance later on. Particularly this scene:

      39 INT. WAREHOUSE - DAY
      The Beast's body crumbles to bits in front of Faith, who's still sitting on the floor, weak and beaten.

      ANGELUS
      (looks outside, rolls his eyes) Aw, crap! You mean, killing the Beast really does bring back the sun? I thought that was Angel's retarded fantasy. (stands) Aah! Oh, well, what're you gonna do? Take the bad with the good, I always say. Anyway, I just wanted Beastie boy here to soften you up. I like my meat nice and tender. (Faith stands and swings a heavy hook and chain toward Angelus, but it goes right by him as he dodges it easily) Ooh, swing and a miss, slugger. Sorry, but- (the hook and chain break through a dirty window to allow sunlight into the room; Faith's sitting in the sunlight; Angelus ducks for cover) God! (chuckles) OK. Well, I gotta give you props. (glares at Faith) Nice move, really. I guess we'll just have to take a rain check on that whole eviscerating you thing. Just you and me, now, Faithy. (winks, walks away) Catch you later.
      The way he goes from gleefully stalking Faith and mocking her for missing her shot then he trails off as he realizes there's a window behind him. I really love that scene, not only for Faith's ingenuity but for the way Boreanaz sells Angelus' transition from stalker killer to surprise at her ploy and the unwilling admiration that she's really gonna make a game of it. He's not disappointed here at the "rain check" - the game is just beginning. I think this is where he's finally sold on torturing Faith in her own right. Before he just wanted the Beast to "soften" her up so he didn't have to do all the work, just sit down and have a nice Slayer meal. But Faith really earns her spot as a favored target in this interaction, outmaneuvering him when she should be down and out. It makes her more interesting
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      • #4
        Anyone else agree that Angelus sounded disappointed that it wasn't Buffy in town?
        Oh I read that as him being disappointed myself. It would fit in beautifully with Angelus's fixation with Buffy as established in season 2 of Buffy. For Angelus at least some things never change.

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        • #5
          Mm, not so much fixation. Angelus wasn't fixated on Buffy in Sunnydale. He was fixated on hurting Angel--the one he really hates most. He wanted to harm Buffy because he had to feel Angel's love for and with her. That's what disgusted him. It was revenge on Angel, not Buffy. "This wasn't about you. It was never about you!" Orpheus, in particular, really backs up that understanding of Angelus' motives.

          I read it as he knows all of Buffy's buttons to push and knows she probably couldn't survive another bout of Angelus. Faith is a different can of worms entirely. Rather than picking on Buffy's pains of life and the personal relationship she had with Angel, Angelus would have to pick on Faith's issues of good vs. bad and her sense of belonging and being cared for. Angelus had more intimate and rewarding buttons to push with Buffy. Buffy is more Angelus' preferred kind of target than Faith is. Faith doesn't take personal jabs quite as hard and the fight would be a lot more physical and sarcastic than one with Buffy, which would be more emotional. Angelus prefers emotional targets.

          Also, Angelus prefers to harm targets that Angel would feel the most guilty about--particularly one that Angelus has already worked on before. Faith is coming off of being helped by Angel, whereas Buffy is still hurt from Angelus' last visit. Faith was in a much stronger emotional place, IMO, in dealing with Angelus than Buffy would be.
          NileQT87
          The Dark Avenger
          Last edited by NileQT87; 31-12-08, 03:32 AM.

          "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
          "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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          • #6
            Well as I view Angel and Angelus as the same person, but one has a soul and one doesn't I don't really buy into that really.

            Angel loved her deeply, and so it's not surprising that his unsouled self expressed that fascination in a more extreme twisted kind of way.
            sueworld
            Banned
            Last edited by sueworld; 31-12-08, 04:05 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
              Mm, not so much fixation. Angelus wasn't fixated on Buffy in Sunnydale. He was fixated on hurting Angel--the one he really hates most. He wanted to harm Buffy because he had to feel Angel's love for and with her. That's what disgusted him. It was revenge on Angel, not Buffy. "This wasn't about you. It was never about you!" Orpheus, in particular, really backs up that understanding of Angelus' motives.
              That's... not really what he said at the time. It's not what Spike or Dru perceived, either --

              Spike: You've really got a yen to hurt this girl, haven't you?

              Angelus: She made me feel like a human being. That's not the kind of
              thing you just forgive.
              Angel seems pretty clear on Buffy being the one to blame. And for that matter, that he is the one that felt human.

              I definitely would buy that he was fixated on Buffy, he wanted to do to her what he did to Dru. But I don't think that was really first and foremost on his mind in Season 4 of "Angel" -- I don't think he'd have been suddenly more interested in messing with Buffy than he was with the fun he could have with his own people. He seemed especially interested in Fred and Cordy.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                I definitely would buy that he was fixated on Buffy, he wanted to do to her what he did to Dru. But I don't think that was really first and foremost on his mind in Season 4 of "Angel" -- I don't think he'd have been suddenly more interested in messing with Buffy than he was with the fun he could have with his own people. He seemed especially interested in Fred and Cordy.
                Right, Cordy and Fred were his main targets to torture. But again, when it came to a Slayer in town he immediately thought of Buffy and grinned. He liked the idea of her joining his torture brigade. Faith was less exciting at first glance to him, but he later saw the potential of playing with her.
                Last edited by Emmie; 31-12-08, 04:34 AM.
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                • #9
                  I always read it as Angel wanting to torture Buffy because she is so in love with Angel. He wants to torment her and I thought in Salvage that when he discovered it was Faith in town, he was dissappointed because he doesn't want to miss the chance to torture Buffy more. As someone pointed out, he says he can't forgive her because she made him feel human so he has more of a vendetta against her than Faith. Faith is just a toy for him to mess around with for a bit so he won't want to miss out on that but with Buffy it is deeper than that. It is the chance to really get back at Angel and to really gain some pleasure from ruining her life.
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                  • #10
                    Actually, Angelus did his best work in season 4 on picking apart the Gunn/Fred/Wesley triangle. I would say he most effectively pushed Gunn's buttons to turn against Wesley. While Angelus also went at Cordy and Connor, the only one he really got a reaction out of was Gunn and basically got Wesley to reveal his feelings for Fred. Connor didn't really have any lapses of posture. The closest Angelus came to affecting in season 4 were Gunn and Wesley, not Cordelia and Fred. Fred was only a tool to take apart the gang using Gunn and Wesley's rivalry.

                    And remember, it was Angelus who figured out that Cordy was the Beast's master. At some point Angelus was thinking what Angel wouldn't let himself believe to be the case with his friend.

                    And Buffy was a lot more of a personal vendetta to Angelus than anyone in the Fang Gang, because Angelus' worst nightmare was love and that was something he experienced so strongly while in Angel that Angel lost his soul (and naturally via only one trigger rather than a dream-state confluence of events like Awakening).

                    Also remember that Angelus prized works of destructive art like Drusilla and would have considered Dana a masterpiece. Faith wasn't destroying an innocent the way Buffy was and held considerably less appeal to him. And Angelus didn't have nearly the same hatred for Angel's saving of Faith as he did for Angel's love of Buffy. Hurting Buffy had more appeal to Angelus than hurting Faith. Angelus had a lot more to work with with Buffy because Buffy was already pretty susceptible to a lot of things Angelus could bring up again and hurt her with. Faith can put up more of a mental fight with the personal attacks and it inevitably becomes a sarcasm match with a physical fight. With Buffy, Angelus would be going for emotional and insecure tears, not sarcastic barbs about Faith being bad and unwanted.

                    Even Angel made it very clear in Lie to Me that there were some very real similarities between Drusilla and Buffy. Angelus always picks on those who he sees an opportunity to really get at someone with. Buffy was susceptible. Gunn was already on edge and was picked apart with the mere suggestion of Fred being a better match for Wesley. Wesley to a much lesser extent was susceptible to some of the sexual references regarding Fred (the only time Wesley was starting to get affected). Angelus played with Cordy and Connor, but didn't really get anywhere. Everything involving Fred was intimidating book-stealing and using her against Gunn and Wesley to split alliances. I didn't see Angelus targeting Fred at all. She probably got the least personally emotional attacks, despite coming into Angelus' physical grasp or close proximity twice. The sarcastic behavior that evil-Cordy was giving wasn't going to interest Angelus in the long term and clearly he started suspecting evil-Cordy wasn't Cordy. Even if Angel had feelings for Cordy and Cordy was actually Cordy, Buffy would be much higher on his target priorities because of her personality and that she is already somewhat a work in progress for Angelus.

                    The sick sexual and morbid barbs Angelus was doing in season 4 probably only ever had an effect on Wesley. It gave Fred, Cordy and Faith all opportunities to be sarcastic back. The sexual stuff worked with Buffy because it was personal and she was insecure about it. It worked with Wesley because of his jealousy over Gunn and Fred. Faith and evil-Cordy were just dishing it back to him. Connor used it right back at Angelus because he got the girl Angel didn't and so it didn't really work on Connor. It actually gave Connor the upper hand. Angelus' bag of tricks really only works on people who are the corruptible pure and the insecure.

                    Buffy's buttons to push were a lot more ripe just like Gunn's were.
                    NileQT87
                    The Dark Avenger
                    Last edited by NileQT87; 31-12-08, 01:04 PM.

                    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                      Even if Angel had feelings for Cordy and Cordy was actually Cordy, Buffy would be much higher on his target priorities because of her personality and that she is already somewhat a work in progress for Angelus.
                      Wow, you just made me realize something. A work in progress? How about Angelus wanting payback for Buffy sending him to hell for a hundred years and getting him re-ensouled?

                      Angelus would just forget about that and not want some revenge? Nah, don't think so.
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                      • #12
                        Oh, Angelus would go right at Buffy's guilt over sending Angel to Hell, most assuredly. He'd probably be smelling an awful lot of Spike on Buffy, too, if she had showed up in L.A. in seasons 7/4. You know that would get some jabbing... and not in the jealous and insecure way Angel reacted to it. It would be open season on Buffy's relationship problems.

                        Angelus probably would love to go after Willow, too. He just never had an opportunity post-Becoming to go at her. She'd be a target very similar to Jenny.
                        NileQT87
                        The Dark Avenger
                        Last edited by NileQT87; 31-12-08, 01:18 PM.

                        "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                        "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                        • #13
                          Yep, definite disappointment there. That's the way I perceived it too. Though Faith seems to prove a welcome amusement to him too, even if a lot less enjoyable than Buffy.
                          Sin is what I feast upon
                          I'm forging my crematorium
                          Your tomb is waiting here for you
                          Welcome to my ritual

                          -Judas Priest, Death

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                            That's... not really what he said at the time. It's not what Spike or Dru perceived, either --

                            Angel seems pretty clear on Buffy being the one to blame. And for that matter, that he is the one that felt human.
                            Agreed. When he says, "This wasn't about you. It was never about you!" in "Becoming", he's only speaking of the trap to lure her away so that Giles could be captured, not everything that's happened since he lost his soul. He quite clearly is in it to hurt Buffy for the sake of hurting Buffy - because it's more fun (and artful) to drag it out and maximize the pain inflicted than to just kill her.
                            Cordially,
                            Amuk

                            I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
                            Addicted to Buffy

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                            • #15
                              I actually just re-watched that episode the other day and I caught that air of disappointment in Angelus's voice when he found out that Buffy wasn't in his city. The last time that he was actually in charge of the body that he was in, his fixation was on torturing and hurting Buffy, so why wouldn't it be one of the first things that comes to mind when he takes over his body again? I think that he did want to mess with all of those nearest to him at the moment(Fred, Cordy, etc) but that Buffy was someone he wanted to see in the near future. I liked the interaction between him and Faith, seeing as how they never met before, and how he was able to dig into her and mess her up as well.

                              In regards to Willow, I think that Angelus would want to go after her as well. But would he even stand a chance? Knowing that Angelus was evil and if he tried to come after her, I don't think that Willow would even let him try anything. This is post-Season 6 Willow, who although hesitant to use magic, was very powerful and growing.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Emmie View Post
                                Anyone else agree that Angelus sounded disappointed that it wasn't Buffy in town?
                                I totally agree with you. It's kind of odd, I had always thought it was so obvious, but apparently from posts in this thread, it's not that clear.

                                I definitely think he was disappointed that it wasn't Buffy AND that it was Faith. Buffy was obviously much more fun for him to play with and get inside her head. But I think Buffy always presented more of a challenge to Angelus physically. I think he was a little disappointed because he thought Faith would be a fairly easy and quick slaughter. Faith was so often an emotional mess and lacking in own self worth that he figured she wouldn't have much fight in her.

                                Thankfully, Faith grew up a lot while in prison.

                                Lydia made the punch!

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                                • #17
                                  I just watched Salvage again last night and I'd say it's ambiguous. One could see it as disappointment that it's not Buffy. Or one could just see it as sardonic self-talk - that he doesn't really care which it is, he's just resigned to dealing with the new complication.

                                  Angel has a pretty strong connection with Faith, too (as Faith is at such pains herself to point out), so it's not as if Angelus wouldn't have any "interest" in her.

                                  In any event, I think you can take his tone either way and be right. Likely as not, that's how DB wanted to play it - conflicted.
                                  Cordially,
                                  Amuk

                                  I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
                                  Addicted to Buffy

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                                  • #18
                                    Amuk, can you walk me through your analysis because like Elhwyen above I don't see it as ambiguous. It seems completely obvious to me.

                                    My analysis goes from anticipatory smile he has at learning the Slayer is in town to his disgruntled face when he figures out it's Faith. His anticipatory smile goes along with the assumption that when people say the slayer is in town its Buffy -that's why he calls Buffy's house. To check up on her whereabouts and sneakily get intel from Dawn.

                                    Also, the wording of his last line - "Oh, it's the other one" - shows he doesn't think much of Faith at this moment. She's just the "other one".
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                                    • #19
                                      Yeah I got a sense of disappointment for sure. I remember when my sister watched that episode for the first time she laughed to herself, because not only was Angelus downgrading Faith to just "the other one" but it was clear that he was hoping it'd be Buffy he could have a crack at. She finds it hilarious that Buffy's always regarded as "the one" and Faith isn't, for some reason, I don't think she cares for Faith all that much

                                      But yes, that's the vibe I picked up on as well. It makes sense to me, Buffy would be the most interesting to him. He was completely fixated on her in season two, she became his unhealthy obsession that he never got to crack like he once did Dru, not to mention the fact he'd be looking for a little pay back after beating him and sending him to hell. For Angelus, Buffy will always be the one that got away, I think it'll always be that way for the guy.

                                      Not that he didn't enjoy Faith mind you, I think he had great fun in trying to torment her, but initially it did seem like he was disappointed it hadn't been Buffy.

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                                      • #20
                                        Agree with those who think Angelus was disappointed that it wasn't Buffy. This goes nicely with his previous comment to Wesley when he was still caged and Wesley brought up the last time Angelus was free to terrorize a town...

                                        WESLEY
                                        (rearranges the gun he's holding, paces) You'll have to forgive the accommodations. The last time you were free, you terrorized Sunnydale.

                                        ANGELUS
                                        That slayer—she's a pistol.


                                        So I think he had the most fun with Buffy, yes. She was his biggest challenge.

                                        -Luc
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