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  • Question about Jasmine

    I was reading a thread about Jasmines confusion and all that about season 4, about how she might or might not arrange the whole thing. Then I remembered Jasmines birth would have been impossible if there was no Connor and Connor`s birth would have been impossible if there was not a Darla in the first place. So.....was Jasmine involved in some way manipulating W&H or was it just a mere coincidence?

  • #2
    I think that is what is supposed to be, but really, I don't believe that.
    W&H have their own plan about Angel and they are a part of this thing.

    This whole thing with Jasmine, I am not fan because it's doesn't make sense even if that can explain a lot of things. It's too much easy, I was expecting better about all the story with Connor, th reason of his birth.
    Sorry if you don't understand what I write, I'm french.

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    • #3
      This question is one of my biggest problems of the whole Jasmine retcon. Things that were intended to be the own choices of the characters became Jasmine's work. What is the goal of Angel's fight for free will if he doesn't have it. I want to remember Doyle's sacrifice as Doyle's sacrifice and not as Jasmine's trick to give Cordelia visions. The same for Angel winning Connor's life, it's Angel doing and not Jasmine. The same for Cordelia's choice to become a demon.

      Angel says this in Power Play;
      "We are weak. The powerful control everything... except our will to choose."

      Of course Angel can be totally wrong, but I've the feeling that he isn't. It would be weird if the writers wanted to finish the series with Angel being wrong about something this important.

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      • #4
        Jasmine was a powerful manipulator but that doesn't necessarily mean it negates free will itself.

        With all of Jasmine's careful planning, we can see that there were still things that Jasmine had to do 'on the fly' so to speak.

        Take Holland Manners, I'm sure he's manipulated many events in his time and he's only human. He does so by influencing and predicting behaviour. I see Jasmine as doing the same thing, taking into account that she's had a millenia of practice.

        I still however, free will is an important thing to believe in as far as the verse is concerned despite it's contradictions. This is why Gunn's speech is so powerful. He's proven right as least in terms of that final result, however it's still important to treat everything as if it's up to you, therefore placing intentions in a position of significance.

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        • #5
          Honestly I think that the Jasmine recon was one of the worst things that the writers could have done especially as they only came up with the idea when Charisma (sp?) announced that she was pregnant.

          In terms of Jasmine and her control. The way I like to think of things isn't that Jasmine actually took away their free will and made them do them the way she wanted, but simply manipulated events in the hopes that they would. Take the trial situation for example. She didn't forcibly make Angel do 'The Trials' which would earn a life which she would use to make Connor, but simply placed him in the position where he had that choice. Angel could have just as simply refused the trials placing his life above that of Darla's, but he didn't because he is a champion just as Jasmine hoped. Jasmine manipulations pushed things so Angel would be presented with the choice, but the chocie itself lay in the hands of Angel.

          Its the same with Doyle falling in love with Cordelia and passing the visions on. Doyle fell in love with Cordelia of his own freewill not because Jasmine forced the feelings upon them. She simply used the visions as a means of leading Doyle to the 'AI team'. Had Doyle not fallen in love with Cordelia, had he not chosen to sacrafice himself and pass on the visions her plans would have been ruined. The same principle applies to the other situations which Jasmine needed to occur such as, Angel sleeping with Darla, Cordelia choosing to take on a demon-half, Cordelia agreeing to ascend to the 'higher level'.

          So basically to summarise what I have said so far. Jasmine used all of her manipulations through both direct means such as the visions, or second hand with the help of acolytes to push the characters into situations where they could make the choices she needed, but they would still be just that 'choices'.

          The only instances in which Jasmine directly played events up until the end of Season 4 is
          • The Visions
          • Contacting Skip to play the spirit guide to Cordelia.
          • Contacting Acolytes to pass false information to Lorne
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
            Honestly I think that the Jasmine recon was one of the worst things that the writers could have done especially as they only came up with the idea when Charisma (sp?) announced that she was pregnant.

            In terms of Jasmine and her control. The way I like to think of things isn't that Jasmine actually took away their free will and made them do them the way she wanted, but simply manipulated events in the hopes that they would. Take the trial situation for example. She didn't forcibly make Angel do 'The Trials' which would earn a life which she would use to make Connor, but simply placed him in the position where he had that choice. Angel could have just as simply refused the trials placing his life above that of Darla's, but he didn't because he is a champion just as Jasmine hoped. Jasmine manipulations pushed things so Angel would be presented with the choice, but the chocie itself lay in the hands of Angel.

            Its the same with Doyle falling in love with Cordelia and passing the visions on. Doyle fell in love with Cordelia of his own freewill not because Jasmine forced the feelings upon them. She simply used the visions as a means of leading Doyle to the 'AI team'. Had Doyle not fallen in love with Cordelia, had he not chosen to sacrafice himself and pass on the visions her plans would have been ruined. The same principle applies to the other situations which Jasmine needed to occur such as, Angel sleeping with Darla, Cordelia choosing to take on a demon-half, Cordelia agreeing to ascend to the 'higher level'.

            So basically to summarise what I have said so far. Jasmine used all of her manipulations through both direct means such as the visions, or second hand with the help of acolytes to push the characters into situations where they could make the choices she needed, but they would still be just that 'choices'.

            The only instances in which Jasmine directly played events up until the end of Season 4 is
            • The Visions
            • Contacting Skip to play the spirit guide to Cordelia.
            • Contacting Acolytes to pass false information to Lorne
            Agreed and she may not have even sent all if any of the visions. We see that Jasmine can manipulate on the fly so it doesn't mean every detail was planned. Good manipulators can actually go with the flow and adapt, as long as they get what they want. I love Angel but his swaying from idealism to nihilism etc can make him predictable and many humans may have been predictable for Jasmine. Even when she was threatened by AI in Inside Out she still had Connor as a back-up in case anything went wrong. Also the trials may have given Jasmine the chance to exploit a metaphyical loophole. Who knows?

            I think that Jasmine was a fine idea because I love morally ambiguous villains. To me, she could have just been a being who happens to have a different view on morality than many humans.

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