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  • Jasmine's Possession of Cordy

    Season 4 has always been a bit confusing to me, but I was wondering what other people thought about when Jasmine had full control of Cordy. I think Cordy was fully in control of her mind during the first few episodes when she was on a higher plane. I think she was clearly Cordy, her personality and her actions.

    She returns with no memory at the end of The House Always Wins and in Slouching Towards Bethlehem Cordy is amnesia girl. In Supersymmetry, she's shown to be bonding with Connor while she's making his place homey and "nesting". She tells Connor she still feels out of place so he suggest she might be missing the fight since she's also a "warrior". So this leads to Connor to training her and them staking vampires.

    Spin The Bottle leads to the temporary return of Cordy's high school persona. At this point I still believe it's real Cordy in control. I'd entertained the idea that the amnesia was a ruse by Jasmine!Cordy to keep the gang from asking her questions, but I think her fear and confusion is genuine there. So while amnesia clearly makes Cordy easier for Jasmine to manipulate, I don't think it was Jasmine!Cordy pretending to have no memory. At the end of Spin the Bottle, when Lorne returns Cordy's memory:

    LORNE
    (show Lorne at the piano) But since nothing ended all that well, I guess I gotta say that well, nothing was well. See, none of us knew it then, but the sequence of events was a little different than we thought. It went more like this:

    In the hotel lobby, Lorne is giving Cordelia her drop of potion while Angel and Connor look on. She has a vision of a scary red-faced demon opening its eyes. She makes a face and then runs out of the lobby.
    So is this the moment when Jasmine is awakened inside?

    I'm a bit confused on this matter and in the next episode, Apocalypse Nowish, Cordy is having nightmares of The Beast and in the dream:

    CORDELIA
    No one's safe. Don't you understand that? It's coming, and no one can stop it. I wanna warn Angel, but the words won't come out. Why can't I tell him? I feel it. The thing in my dreams... It's real, and it's almost here.

    Connor stands. When Cordelia looks up, there's a beastly demon standing in front of her where Connor was.

    BEAST
    I know.

    The Beast grabs her throat, and Cordelia gasps, waking from her dream. Connor comes rushing into the room, going to her.

    CONNOR
    What is it?

    CORDELIA
    Oh, G—

    CONNOR
    Are you all right? Cordy!

    Cordelia sobs and leans on Connor, who puts his arm around her.
    The way this dream is portrayed it really feels like Cordy is here and trying to help Angel like she always does. Her "I wanna warn Angel, but the words won't come out" to me says that Jasmine is at work controlling Cordelia but she doesn't have full control of Cordy's consciousness yet.

    Apocalypse Nowish ends with Cordy sleeping with Connor to give him "something real". This is the point where I say that Cordy has left the building. She's definitely not driving anymore because I don't believe Cordy would ever sleep with Connor, no matter what was influencing her. I think her mind would fight to keep from doing that even if Jasmine were trying to make this happen.


    In You're Welcome, real Cordy speaks about the possession:

    CORDELIA
    (chuckles)
    Wes?
    (stands, walks up to Wesley)
    Last year, when that, um, higher...whatever took over my body, did those things. Nobody's talking about it.
    (smiles nervously, looks at Wesley, concerned)

    WESLEY
    (sits, looks at Cordelia)
    What's to say? We all understand it wasn't you.

    CORDELIA
    Do you?

    WESLEY
    You didn't kill Lilah.

    CORDELIA
    I know. Still... I'm sorry.
    (sits on the edge of Wesley's desk)
    I just wanted to tell you that before—
    When she says "did all those things" I think she's including sleeping with Connor, something that hurt Angel. Clearly by the time Jasmine!Cordy kills Lilah, Cordy says she had no control over her actions. I think sleeping with Connor was the first main thing she did that was Jasmine's plan and against what Cordy could be manipulated into doing (her staying with Connor during her amnesia was convenient to Jasmine's plan, but I think it was circumstances as well as Cordy feeling this immediate trust and connection that I suspect Jasmine planted in her).

    So when do you think Cordy officially lost control of her mind and body during Season 4? Can you point to a specific moment where it happened?
    Last edited by Emmie; 21-12-08, 01:51 AM.
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  • #2
    It's been explained that it is in Spin the Bottle when Lorne's spell wakes up Jasmine in Cordy and she gets a vision of the Beast.

    Lorne was a heavy part of the plan. Jasmine's acolytes at Caritas gave him the information on where to send Angel (the trials) and gave him the potion to wake up Jasmine. Cordy also distracted everyone from not realizing that Angelus out of the cage by doing mojo on Lorne's inability to read Angelus' lack of soul.

    That's three direct times that Jasmine messed with Lorne. And of course, the vision of the Beast would from reading amnesia-Cordy would have killed Lorne had W&H not sucked it out of his head. Jasmine covered her tracks pretty well with Lorne.

    Fred's purpose was to open the portal in Pylea that sent Lorne to Caritas.

    Doyle's purpose was to give the visions to Cordy, who was then forced by Skip into becoming a vessel for Jasmine by getting the proper demon vessel body that was needed. Jasmine was definitely involved with the visions.

    It was moving the slot machine that got the real Cordy kicked out of the higher dimension by the other Powers (who don't like messing with the natural order of things unlike Jasmine). Jasmine took a ride home with Cordy, but somehow Jasmine didn't have full control and Cordy had amnesia until acolytes provided the potion to Lorne.

    Lorne talks about how they didn't know it at the time about evil-Cordy seeing the Beast at the end of Spin the Bottle. That's the big hint that Jasmine woke up.

    Inside Out explains the rest with Skip and the montage of evil-Cordy stealing the muo-ping and killing Manjet Lizzie Borden-style.

    That's the official canon text. If you don't believe the exposition, that's not what the writers intended. There's a reason the exposition is there.

    Amends is the other episode where it seems like people either don't like it or understand the exposition telling them what the writers intended to be the canon text. The First brought back Angel, trying to tempt him into losing his soul and killing Buffy. The PTBs (who was probably Jasmine), as far as we are aware, probably brought on the snow and set up AtS. This is possibly what the Mayor was referring to in Choices when he talks about Angel's higher purpose and why the Mayor would make such a comment (it seems he must have been aware of the magic snow being about Angel in order to make a comment like that).
    Last edited by NileQT87; 21-12-08, 03:02 AM.

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    • #3
      Nile, I totally understand that side and it's nice to read the other ways that Jasmine influenced the plot prior to Season 4. But I was specifically wondering *when* Jasmine took complete control over Cordy's mind during Apocalypse Nowish.

      The main point I wanted to discuss was the moment when Jasmine is awakened at the end of Spin the Bottle and how in the next episode, Apocalypse Nowish, it's shown (IMO) that Cordy is still in control, but not completely. I think by the end of that episode, it's all Jasmine steering Cordy's body. I'm just wondering if anyone else agreed or what their thoughts were on that specific episode and how it relates to Cordy being in control versus Jasmine.

      Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
      That's the official canon text. If you don't believe the exposition, that's not what the writers intended. There's a reason the exposition is there.
      I don't remember saying anything about not believing Jasmine had done all those things. I was specifically wondering about the exact moment that Cordy was no longer in control. Did I say something in my original post to give you that impression? It seems like you're arguing the point that Jasmine *did* all those things, but I was never stating that she didn't nor that I "don't believe the exposition". ???

      I was saying that I think Jasmine was awakened at the end of Spin the Bottle, but didn't take full control til the end of Apocalypse Nowish because I think Cordy is clearly struggling with some internal force in her dreams. But I was looking to see other people's opinions on the matter.
      Last edited by Emmie; 21-12-08, 08:25 AM.
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      • #4
        It seems like there was some subconscious suggestion from Jasmine where Cordy felt like she needed to go off with Connor before Spin the Bottle. In fact, Cordy was being inched towards Connor back in season 3 (the soul colonic). The demon body kept saving Cordy so she could be the vessel (the glowing was always when she was endangered).

        I would say that amnesia-Cordy was mostly Cordy, but Jasmine was kind of groggily suggesting things, but kind of knocked out from the trip down. Jasmine took full control in Spin the Bottle, but didn't have her own body (she was using Cordy's) until the pregnancy. Jasmine sort of took over like a parasite.

        Jasmine was fully awake after Spin the Bottle (it was Jasmine who answered Angel's question) and got herself a body (rather than just using Cordy's) in Apocalypse, Nowish.
        Last edited by NileQT87; 21-12-08, 09:29 PM.

        "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
        "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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        • #5
          See that's where the narrative confuses me. During Apocalypse Nowish, it opens with the dream sequence of Cordy watching a movie and talking to Connor, only for the Beast to appear and grab Cordy by the throat. Do you suppose that dream is significant of Cordy's subconscious trying to fight free? And when Jasmine-ish!Cordy wakes up suddenly from that dream, she looks shocked and cries on Connor's shoulder? So when Jasmine!Cordy awakes, do you believe that it's just Jasmine feigning to be upset by the dream of the Beast to manipulate Connor?
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          • #6
            I think those are misleads for the audience. Jasmine knows fully well who the Beast is. Jasmine even had the Beast wiped from all the memories of the beings that are in control at the time and books in the dimension. That was certainly done before the Beast appeared. Jasmine is manipulating Connor to be protective of her. That was Connor's main function: protect the vessel.

            As long as Jasmine could control Connor as her protector, she was safe. Of course, he was her downfall. I think he ended up being more on Cordy's side, not knowing he never really knew her without Jasmine's interference, while Jasmine was the one who was making Connor like Cordy in the first place. That and he just gave up on what he saw as the lesser of two evils.

            Jasmine would often have those visions when she wanted Connor to come running to her side or when she wanted people to distrust Angel (which also put Connor more on her side).
            Last edited by NileQT87; 21-12-08, 09:37 PM.

            "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
            "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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            • #7
              But a dream within Cordy's mind isn't a necessary mislead. It's a deception that *only* affects the audience and serves no purpose to manipulate the characters around her. When she awakens from the dream, she uses it to effectively manipulate Connor. But experiencing the dream itself seems unnecessary to Jasmine's agenda. It being solely for the audience makes it nonsensical for Jasmine to be experiencing that dream vision. Unless Jasmine!Cordy was doing this deception almost with a method actor's approach - immersing herself in every experience to make it appear more genuine to her pawns.
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              • #8
                To be honest, I think it was somewhat of a lazy misdirect that was never fully explained.

                By your own theory, Emmie, even if Jasmine was in control by the end of 'Rain of Fire' that doesn't explain why we see 'Cordy's' visions subsequent to that, such as in Long Day's Journey when her behaviour because super weird, what with killing Manny etc.

                I really like Season 4 but this cites one of my complaints aside from Charisma's acting.

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                • #9
                  kana, yes I agree completely. I've been rewatching Season 4 (currently up to Salvage) and they do continue to show the audience Cordy's visions. Obviously that's for the audience's benefit to help us experience the visions the way they've always happened with Cordy (we get to see the flashes in her mind), so it maintains that continuity so as to not raise suspicions. But if the audience is seeing it, are we to assume that Jasmine!Cordy is really seeing it also?

                  Again, the best explanation I can come up with is that Jasmine!Cordy wanted to make everything as *real* as possible so as to best manipulate Team Angel. So she completely immersed herself in every little detail, even going so far as to manifest these visions in her own mind to fool the others.

                  I really do enjoy Season 4, but Carpenter's acting is really painful at times. When she puts on the pompous, holier than thou airs or when she gives the exposition in a serious tone. When Jasmine!Cordy is explaining how Angel must lose his soul through a moment of "perfect pure happiness" I wanted to gag on her delivery. It was just...bad. Wooden, self-important and boring. All those bad qualities that come through I (perhaps as intended) attribute to Jasmine's actual personality.
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                  • #10
                    It was all a ruse, it was part of her plan. To go along with everything and everyone just to keep the suspicions off. I?ll know better when I get there again. I?m rewatching Angel again ahd just finished season 1 on Sunday.

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                    • #11
                      In terms of whether it was Cordy or Jasmine in control in the higher plane, I am fairly certain that it was Cordelia in control of the situation. While one could argue that it could have been Jasmine as Cordelia spent her whole time willing the AI team to find a way to get her out of the higher plane. Ultimately I don't think Jasmine would have gone for a full blown possession while still in the higher plane and thus still in the domain of the other powers where they would be more liable to take some form of action against her.

                      Though that's another thing! For all powerful beings the other Powers That Be must be rather unobservant. From pieces of information we found out in Season 4 Jasmine had obviously been planning her descension for a long time and hadn't exactly hidden it. After all we know she had taken similar actions previously in the bug like planet... If she had made her plans so boldly obvious why didn't the other Powers do anything? Why was she allowed back into the higher planes with the other power when she had obviously descended into the world of the bugs before? I mean, if they kicked Cordelia out for simply moving a vending machine. Shouldn't Jasmine have been kicked out and stripped of her powers for trying to take over the world, but I suppose that's for another thread.

                      As for the amnesia I think it is safe to say that it was completely Cordy. I think Joss tried to make that clear for viewers by showing the eyes of the beast opening up. That was Jasmine truly awakening in Cordelia for the first time. Her previous trust to Connor could have been due to the fact that at the time they were both outsiders from the rest of the gang and possibly an instinct instilled in her by Jasmine in the higher planes. Perhaps she knew that at first she would not have full control, but that the amnesia would be cured. Didn't Lorne find out from one of his contacts the cure for the amnesia? Perhaps it was one of Jasmine Acolytes the same contact who led him to 'The Trials' which was clearly an important part of Jasmine's plans.

                      As for the matter of when did Jasmine take full control. I think she had full control from the moment that Cordelia got her memories back. It was Jasmine that ran away from the AI team at the end of 'Spin the Bottle' and it was Jasmine who answered Angel when he asked 'Where they in love'. As for the dream sequences, in my opinion I think that it was the real Cordelia letting her presence be known. Don't forget from what we have been told from Skip, Jasmine and Cordelia herself. The real Cordelia was still in there. She mightn't have had control of her body, but perhaps she still had enough consciousness that her fears for both herself when the possession was over and the gang to manifest itself as dreams.

                      You could even argue that it was these feelings which were drew upon by Jasmine when portraying her feelings of fear to Connor as apart of grooming him to be her protector. This was how she knew to act the way that a fearful Cordelia would in a similar situation. After all up until her descension Jasmine had been an almighty Power That Be meaning that she may never have experienced feelings such as fear herself and as of such would need to draw upon Cordelia who was experiencing these feelings at the time to pull off her act successfully.

                      Or I could be completely wrong and there could be canon contradictions, but those are my thoughts.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
                        In terms of whether it was Cordy or Jasmine in control in the higher plane, I am fairly certain that it was Cordelia in control of the situation. While one could argue that it could have been Jasmine as Cordelia spent her whole time willing the AI team to find a way to get her out of the higher plane. Ultimately I don't think Jasmine would have gone for a full blown possession while still in the higher plane and thus still in the domain of the other powers where they would be more liable to take some form of action against her.

                        Though that's another thing! For all powerful beings the other Powers That Be must be rather unobservant. From pieces of information we found out in Season 4 Jasmine had obviously been planning her descension for a long time and hadn't exactly hidden it. After all we know she had taken similar actions previously in the bug like planet... If she had made her plans so boldly obvious why didn't the other Powers do anything? Why was she allowed back into the higher planes with the other power when she had obviously descended into the world of the bugs before? I mean, if they kicked Cordelia out for simply moving a vending machine. Shouldn't Jasmine have been kicked out and stripped of her powers for trying to take over the world, but I suppose that’s for another thread.
                        You make an excellent point here though, I feel like the PTBs need to hear a line that was in Spiderman "With great power, comes great responsibility." They say the don't want to interfere, so all they do is watch the show but they are not willing to get in the game. So why do they possess such power, what is there purpose? And since they sent Doyle visions (or is that suppose to be just Jasmine too?) isn't that show more of a slightly interfere when we feel like it? And again if it is only Jasmine then my original point still stands, what is the purpose of the Powers That Be?

                        And how do prophecies fit in to all this? Because prophecies hold major influence over what happens in the Verse' whether ignored or embraced or trying to stop one.

                        If evil beings and W&H choose to play but the other entities with power don't does it truly come down to each individual and how they want to live their life?

                        But with magic being a part of the world which can change a being or event dramatically, again I don't get the observed stance from the Powers.

                        Uh...maybe I am just confusing myself and everyone else, sorry. But I still agree that something is off when it comes to trying to put together any understanding of the Powers that Be.

                        What I would like to know is why is Jasmine so different from the others? What made her be different?
                        Last edited by Boltmaiden; 23-12-08, 08:00 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Boltmaiden View Post
                          You make an excellent point here though, I feel like the PTBs need to hear a line that was in Spiderman "With great power, comes great responsibility." They say the don't want to interfere, so all they do is watch the show but they are not willing to get in the game. So why do they possess such power, what is there purpose? And since they sent Doyle visions (or is that suppose to be just Jasmine too?) isn't that show more of a slightly interfere when we feel like it? And again if it is only Jasmine then my original point still stands, what is the purpose of the Powers That Be?
                          This is the point he Jasmine fed upon. Angel was becoming increasingly frustrated with the fact they they should have known what 'The Beast's Master' was doing but didn't warn them at all. Jasmine then fed on his fear and stated that the Ptbs didn't care as much as she did. Angel believes in the end that mankind has to be responsible for their own fate regardless of the PTBs intervention.

                          And how do prophecies fit in to all this? Because prophecies hold major influence over what happens in the Verse' whether ignored or embraced or trying to stop one.
                          Tricky creatures are prophecies. Some can be false and others can transpire but in the way that was expected. I tend to go with Angel's message: "Don't believe everything you're fortold."

                          If evil beings and W&H choose to play but the other entities with power don't does it truly come down to each individual and how they want to live their life?
                          It depends on agenda and belief. The PTBs may not have evil intentions however, they may have a different view of morality than humans. I actually think that Jasmine is an example of this.

                          But with magic being a part of the world which can change a being or event dramatically, again I don't get the observed stance from the Powers.
                          Magic to me is an innately neutral force depending on how one uses it. The PTBs may have used their power to intervene in certain circumstances but deemed it unwise in others. If we could ask them directly instead of using pompus oracles and conduits, it could help!


                          Uh...maybe I am just confusing myself and everyone else, sorry. But I still agree that something is off when it comes to trying to put together any understanding of the Powers that Be.
                          I think Angel is right to place faith himself. If they want to help through vision, then fine, but it's best o trust your own mission.

                          What I would like to know is why is Jasmine so different from the others? What made her be different?
                          I don't think there is anything metaphysically different about her (other than being born in human form). I see it that all the Powers are individual sentient beings who may on occasion disagree. I think Jasmine was the only one however to go as far she did in terms of human intervention.

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