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  • Issue 15 spoiler discussion

    Tomorrow it's out and today they released the preview;

    click


    That looks like the end of poor Groo, I've a hard time reading the text so I stopped with that after a while.


  • #2
    Just a fantastic issue. The best of "Angel: After the Fall" so far, and it's not close. Kudos to all involved.

    Angel was incredible in this issue. The fighting, the bringing his people together, and having a great idea of which he is actually capable of pretty often. The parallel between W&H's plan to change Angel, between the changes in Gunn as a vampire, and Illyria's attempts to "be" Fred was just brilliant, and actually makes every part of all their arcs for this series tie together very well.

    We have the incredible disappearing, reappearing Nina again, but at least she's alive, so that's good.

    I love that Betta George was sort of the key player in this, being able to access Illyria and use Wes and Spike's memories of her to set Illyria straight. Have to question creatively -- why Wes and Spike? Rather, why not just Wes? Or, if not just Wes, why not Angel, too? Angel knew her longer than Spike did. Should have been Wes or all three of them, IMO.

    Groo went bravely, and I disagree -- he died with honor, defending the city from two attackers. I have to wonder, though, are their survivors of the NINSCVs*? Particularly Spider? We see her fighting, but not going down. Can we expect more of her?

    Connor. Wow. I didn't cry when I read it, nor when I read it now. But I will. It was so sudden and so brutal to see him struck down by Gunn. I've gotta admit, I like Angel in this issue, but I don't *quite* get/agree with him not killing Gunn. If killing Gunn would prove that Angel is capable of being what W&H wants him to be, then so has every single vampire he's ever killed. So was killing Lawson in "Why We Fight". He already crossed the line that proves his capable of that when he killed Drogyn, I'd say. Killing Gunn isn't a character weakness. I went with it because it was clearly the plot element that connects for him and gives him his plan, but I question the premise behind it. Unless there's a sort of Jedi-like "don't kill in anger" idea behind it Lynch is going for, killing Gunn is just as okay as killing Russell Winters was. If anything, I've always been more creeped out by the people Angel's killed dispassionately -- Drogyn, Lindsey.

    But Connor went out very bravely and very emotionally. It's a shame that Angel has to go on with that loss, it's horrible for him, but Connor made it okay. "Vampire or not... you're a good man". Man, isn't that what Angel's hoped to get from him since "A New World"? It was very sad but very touching.
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    • #3
      So Connors dead then? Bugger. Can't say I'm happy about that.

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      • #4
        Nuh. Buh.

        NOT CONNOR!

        Oh, this just ruined my day. And Angel's. I think it was a mistake. There is so much left to do with the character.

        And I agree. I think Lynch's Spike-love is coming out a little too much in having Wesley and Spike being the memories used for Illyria. Angel was the one who saved Fred in Pylea, after all. "Handsome man saved me from the monsters." I think that was also a mistake.

        Either just use Wesley (way more poignant) or use everyone. Angel has a much more poignant and longer history with Fred than Spike, no matter how much time Spike spent with Illyria. Angel saved Fred. Wesley would still have been the choice I'd have used (much like Xander and Willow in Grave).

        It better not have felt safe to kill Connor because of his formerly low popularity levels. There better be a big payoff for doing that to Angel. Remember Forgiving?

        It's one thing to kill all of Angel's friends, but quite another to kill the only family he will likely ever have. Puts new meaning to the cover of Angel burning up for me. One of the reasons he seemed to most want becoming human was having a family (going back to the days where he told Buffy about the things he couldn't give her). As a vampire, he got a son and as a human, he got his son--the only flesh and blood offspring he'll ever have--taken away. IMO, that's the worst possible thing that could have happened to Angel. Nothing else that has happened to Angel in the franchise comes close for me (and that's a lot of bad luck to beat).

        Connor: They'll destroy you.
        Angel: As long as you're okay, they can't.
        Last edited by NileQT87; 18-12-08, 01:25 AM.

        "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
        "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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        • #5
          Connor died with Angel at his side, telling his father never to let W&H win because he knows that his father is a good man, vampire or human. Gunn stabbed him in the chest with Groo's fire sword, which fell to the ground sometime shortly after Illyria ate him.
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          • #6
            I guess that one of my latest threads isn't needed anymore. They did it, and I don't have any doubt that it's going to be very emotional when I read it. I just don't get it? Why do the writers take away every person Angel loves but keep the original BtVS cast complete? The only big loss Buffy -the character- suffered was Joyce. Angel and Spike came back and she was not very close to Anya, Tara and Jenny. Angel already lost all his friends minus Lorne and his son. When is Angel going to break or be completely numb? Nobody can go on like that without getting a break.

            Well it sounds like an amazing issue and I can't wait to read it.

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            • #7
              Connor, Noooo!

              Why? Why!? I'll never understand why Joss (and now Brian?) believes that shocky emotional punches are necessary. Wonderful, they've done their job, I'm torn up that Connor, one of my favorite characters, is dead. Angel has lost another person. Congrats.

              Meanwhile, they've decapitated one of the most intriguing and untapped storyline/characters in the verse. A character who had already once radically changed the dynamic of Angel and the Angelverse (simply by existing), and had it in him to do so again. To me, a shocking moment that serves the present story (?) is worthless compared to all the stories and changes in dynamic that have been lost.

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              • #8
                I'll never understand why Joss picked this Brian Lynch guy to write "After the Fall." I mean, destroying the character Charles Gunn to the point of no return could not have been Joss' plan. Turning him into a vampire, sure; that's total Joss, but having him kill Connor? It's Angel's son! There's no going back from that. Every time Joss turned a character bad, he left some room for redemption. I cannot see Gunn coming back from this. It totally sucks.

                Gosh, I seriously hope something happens and time gets reversed. I don't care if it's before 'Not Fade Away' or before 'Home.' I'm all for change, but this is getting crazy... Fred's like officially gone, who knows if Illyria is coming back, Gunn's totally evil, Connor's dead, Gwen's dead, and Wesley's a ghost thingy. Is "Aftermath" really going to be just Angel? At least there's still Lorne. *knocks on wood* Seriously, I hope they reverse time, having Angel not go to Wolfram & Hart and then jump ahead to an unknown later date. Get back to the basics a little.

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                • #9
                  I think Angel has earned that one wish to bring back someone more than Buffy has (Joss wanted to bring back Tara with a wish but Amber Benson thankfully refused). If either series could reuse that plotline, it should be AtS.

                  Or maybe Angel could give back his humanity for Connor's life.

                  If Lynch knows anything about Angel, he knows this is how to make Angel go postal. As I quoted, Angel explicitly stated that Connor's death would destroy him in Not Fade Away. Now I expect to see just that. If it doesn't destroy him, Lynch has no grasp of poetic writing. The set-up is already in that piece of dialog.

                  It's also a shameful loss of property for such a fledgling comic company. They bought the rights to these characters and they are running out of characters they can use in continuations. Is Joss just trying to end AtS by getting rid of the characters so he doesn't have to deal with it anymore? Is he just trying to whittle it down to Angel and Spike so he can get rid of AtS? Perhaps if he kills all the characters in AtS (most of the cast is mystical), there will be less gray area when Buffy chases magic and demons out of the dimension.

                  There's just a big disparity between how untouchable the BtVS main characters are in comparison to AtS. Killing Connor is akin to how Buffy would have felt if Glory killed Dawn (think Weight of the World). Worse even. Angel only had one shot at having a family. Buffy's life isn't over and her surrogate family is still there, whether she appreciates them or not.

                  And I still don't think Connor had worn out his welcome or run out of stories that could have been told with him.

                  Again, I now expect to see Angel pretty much destroyed--as he said. This is the man who would give up anything (including himself and his friends) or do any dark magic regardless of consequences to save his son.
                  Last edited by NileQT87; 18-12-08, 05:50 AM.

                  "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                  "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                  • #10
                    The real pain here is that... it's on Angel. His plan. His punishment. His son that he failed to get out of town before it all went down.

                    But I don't expect Angel to suddenly go crazy vampire superkiller, despite the possibility. It just doesn't play after he already chose to spare Gunn. I mean, he's not stupid, he saw the injury, he knew on some level, the level that's always a fighter and not just a father, that Connor was going to die. His rage would have been total in that moment, IMO. And yet he stayed his hand (an approach I didn't agree with, but accept for the purpose of the parallels they were drawing).

                    Besides, if he goes crazy and starts to kill anything and everything and breaking every single door in Hell-A, he'd be dishonoring his son --

                    "And you gotta do it, because it's like, a last request. No matter what happens, Angel, don't let them win. You're a good man. Vampire or not -- you're a good man."
                    Last edited by KingofCretins; 18-12-08, 05:58 AM.
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                    • #11
                      It sucks for Angel more than I can even put into words. The death of your child is the WORST thing to even imagine. Having said that, I'm glad Brian Lynch is writing this. When he's done, I'm not sure I will continue.

                      Just don't want all my characters slaughtered...and they keep Andrew, Kennedy, etc...I just don't get it. It was a gotcha issue, maybe I will feel better when it lets me go.

                      Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cheryl4ba View Post
                        It sucks for Angel more than I can even put into words. The death of your child is the WORST thing to even imagine. Having said that, I'm glad Brian Lynch is writing this. When he's done, I'm not sure I will continue.
                        That's sadly how I feel about it too. They're burning all the characters in hell. We have Angel and Spike left. Gunn is a crazy evil vamp, Wes is a ghost who's the "key" to how W&H will win and Illyria just tried to end existence. I don't think Wes is long for this earth after he's served his purpose, I want Gunn to die and I just don't see how Illyria will be reconciled into the team after this.

                        Oh and we have Nina, who a lot of people like. But again, she's not being developed much. People really seem to like her, but she's not really doing anything. Nina seems to be popular for what she *could* be to Angel rather than what she actually is to Angel right now. And Lorne who is loosely involved with the story at this point also.

                        I'm having trouble seeing where we go from here into Aftermath, but hopefully 16 and 17 will enlighten us a bit.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Thomas View Post
                          I'll never understand why Joss picked this Brian Lynch guy to write "After the Fall." I mean, destroying the character Charles Gunn to the point of no return could not have been Joss' plan. Turning him into a vampire, sure; that's total Joss, but having him kill Connor? It's Angel's son! There's no going back from that. Every time Joss turned a character bad, he left some room for redemption. I cannot see Gunn coming back from this. It totally sucks.
                          Actually it was all Joss' plan. He didn't like Brian's first version because not enough people died in it and I believe that vampire Gunn was one of the things that would've happened in season 6 if that was on tv.

                          And that makes me almost pro-reset. But it doesn't sound like it will happen and that's storywise better but still. It would save Connor, Gwen, Groo and maybe Gunn.


                          But again, I've a hard time believing that they did this. If we've to believe the covers from Aftermath;

                          Spoiler:
                          Angel is going to lose his humanity as well


                          They strip everything away what and who he loves ... everything. And of course, that's the perfect punishment by W&H which makes sense in the story. But outside the story we're left with a story without a lot of the great characters. (Poor Kelley Armstrong) We're stuck with a title character who can't possibly get out this without big emotional issues. His closest friends + his son, he lost. And only Illyria, Spike, Lorne and Nina are left. Angel and Lorne are friends but I don't have the feeling that the friendship survived season 5 that well, Angel calls Illyria a friend which suprised me because I can't really feel the friendship, Spike and Angel are close but far from being friends at the same time and he knows Nina not that well. She is the girl he probably had some dates with and one sleepover. Why do the writers love it so much to let nothing go right in Angel's world? What's the point?

                          Spoiler:
                          I really hope that this isn't going to be a set up for Angel becoming Twilight because that would piss me off more than I can say with words.
                          Last edited by Nina; 18-12-08, 10:52 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nina View Post

                            They strip everything away what and who he loves ... everything. And of course, that's the perfect punishment by W&H which makes sense in the story. But outside the story we're left with a story without a lot of the great characters. (Poor Kelley Armstrong) We're stuck with a title character who can't possibly get out this without big emotional issues. His closest friends + his son, he lost. And only Illyria, Spike, Lorne and Nina are left. Angel and Lorne are friends but I don't have the feeling that the friendship survived season 5 that well, Angel calls Illyria a friend which suprised me because I can't really feel the friendship, Spike and Angel are close but far from being friends at the same time and he knows Nina not that well. She is the girl he probably had some dates with and one sleepover. Why do the writers love it so much to let nothing go right in Angel's world? What's the point?

                            Spoiler:
                            I really hope that this isn't going to be a set up for Angel becoming Twilight because that would piss me off more than I can say with words.
                            Yes! They're taking *everyone* truly important away from him. The core group from AtS is literally a dying breed. It really is making me worry about the continuation of the story in Aftermath without so many of the characters we know and love.

                            Some people have suggested that Illyria was being killed towards the end? Did anyone else interpret it that way? I guess it'll take the next issue to be sure.
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                            • #15
                              I am in complete denial. I don't believe it, why? Unless Angel's story ends in Aftermath I have no idea what they were thinking.

                              Angel is the strongest person, character in the verse in my opinion because no matter what has been thrown at him he has found a way to survive, to keep wanting to fight for those who can't, to love.

                              But now, Connor was it, the last straw...I don't believe he can come back from this loss. He may fight temporarly to try to honor his son, but he has lost the person who meant the most in this world to him...again. How many times, Buffy, Cordelia, Connor.

                              And to have this be Gunn's fate, how horrible. The human Gunn we all knew would never have wanted to bring that kind of pain, they probably gave Gunn all of his worst fears and made them reality.

                              I never believed for a second Angel could be Twilight...but now I am worried they will just smack me down one more time. Let's completely destroy my favorite character ever by having him become a hated villain again...oh but maybe this time he will have a soul and help kill and destroy thousands of lives.

                              If they do that...I just, I don't know what to think

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                              • #16
                                Other than Illyria's crossover with Peter David's "Fallen Angel", she has no commitments, storywise -- and that's a non-canon work. So, it's certainly plausible she was being killed.
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                                • #17
                                  I have not read the issue yet, but I doubt that Illyria can stay as a main character if it stays a gigantic monster. Maybe if she goes back to Fred's body but if that's not possible I think that also Illyria goes/went down.
                                  Last edited by Nina; 18-12-08, 05:19 PM.

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                                  • #18
                                    Nah, I can't see them killing off Illyria just yet. She was Joss's favorite character in AtS after all.

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                                    • #19
                                      Nina's right, though, it's untenable to have Illyria in its true form as a "character" -- she's 10 stories tall. And I can't even imagine how they could rationalize her returning to Fred's form when this whole time Illyria was too strong for her, and then Fred's physical form was apparently destroyed in the process of her transforming.

                                      I'm actually leaning toward that being it for Illyria. It's a completed arc -- she finally "gets" Fred, and it makes her vulnerable enough to be destroyed.
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                                      • #20
                                        Thing is If they keep whittling away at the 'real' characters from the show, then pretty soon this verse is going to be in danger of being stocked with comic book OC's that quite frankly some folks aren't going to be at all interested in. Myself included.

                                        I still can't see them killing her off myself. Illyria is Joss's closet thing to a character who's half comic book already in look, etc and so would fit perfectly into the audience of young male comic readers who go for that strong skin tight outfit wearing' super powered chick malarkey.

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