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  • What if you could change 5 things ...

    We had once a thread like this in the BtVS board, but never here. And I limited it to 5 changes because to rewrite the whole series is a bit harsh.

    But which ideas do you have and which things would never happen when you had the power.



    --------------------------------------

    1. Not everybody has to die in less than a season. I would at least keep Cordy. But also Gunn would stay alive. Fred would still become Illyria and Wesley died the way he did as well. A bit more time between both deads wouldn't hurt.

    2. Don't force Angel and Cordy together. Don't use scary words from Pylea and change both characters. The friendship/romance thing we saw in YW feels much better. They fit, they really do ... but season 3 felt so forced to me.

    3. No evil fake Cordelia, especially not in her last season.

    4. No funny episodes when there are still 3 episodes left, especially no episode where Angel & Spike go together to Rome to be pathetic.

    5. No Connor; I like the character (not always) but I think that the show would be better without the whole son of vampires thing. Also mr. dad was cute but not that interesting.


  • #2
    Interesting thread I think 5 choices is enough too otherwise why do we watch the show

    1. Well for me the biggest problem with the series is Season 4, I think to make it better they should never have had evil Cordy, the Beast or Jasmine. If those 3 things were taken out, there would be no cheese in the series.

    2. Holtz would never have snatched Connor, I loved daddy Angel and I would have loved to have seen more of him and baby Connor together. I also didn't like how Connor turned out when he came back.

    3. Lilah would never have died - I really love Wesley and Fred together but I think it would have been more fun for him to have stayed with Lilah or at least for her to have been there winding them up

    4. Angel would never have turned bad after Darla and Drusilla came to town, I foudn most of the episodes when the gang were apart, quite boring.

    5. No TCTONC, this episode was just terrible, I very rarely watch it even when me and my mum go through the whole season. I just find it utterly boring.
    sigpic

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    • #3
      I would not have a Character being thrown away so easily (Tara) there could have been other ways too cause Willow to lose control. Especially when considering the consequences in real life

      The massive reaction especially by the gay community.

      Whether liking to or not reinforcing that lesbian cliche'

      Throwing the life or a character so easily away is just silly. Sorry Joss

      EDIT:Opps! It's the Angel section. I don't care I'm keeping this I really don't like it

      2. That whole Cordy issue that Nina already covered

      3. For similar reasons to 1:The Doyle chapter

      4. No Angelus, Darla, Spike Dru combo in LA. I think it would've been great, at least for on ep.
      Last edited by Revan; 26-11-08, 11:45 AM.
      "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

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      • #4
        Well I'm pretty happy with most things but...

        1) I'd rather Lilah hadn't died. A truly great character who was more then a match for mad old Wesley. Eve was a just a pathetic replacement compared to her.

        2) More funny episodes, especially episodes where Angel & Spike go off together and act like two grumpy old men. Sorry I just adored TGIQ.

        3) The 'evil Cordy thing' was very unfortunate, and although I know the reason why they did it, in an ideal world I wish they hadn't.

        4)To see more of season 5 Connor. He was a vast improvement on the early version, and it's just a shame that we hardly got to see that new side of him before the end.

        5) A bit less of a regression in the writing of Spikes character in season 5. It would have been all well and good If this had been pre-souled season 4 Spike they'd introduced, but to have this read as a realistic continuation the character from just after Chosen just didn't work for me personally. So less 'idiot Spike' would have been wonderful.
        Last edited by sueworld; 26-11-08, 04:04 PM.

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        • #5
          1) No Saint Cordelia (Season 3).
          2) No Evil Cordelia (Season 4).
          3) Less evil pregnancies (how many were there now? four? five?)
          4) Less "idiot Spike" in Season 5, as Sue put it.
          5) Less MotW episodes, especially in Season 1. Angel has always worked best in arcs.

          (set made by Francy for me)

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          • #6
            Really interesting thread...

            1) Cordelia. I'm gonna put this all in one. First, no saint Cordy. Second, no evil Cordy. Third, no dead Cordy. There we go, all better.

            2) No Wesley death. Still have Fred become Illyria, but keep Wesley alive. Because of the pain.

            3) Keep Lilah around. Dead is fine, but I like her as a ghost consultant for Wolfram & Hart (sort of like Wes in ATF). Would have been much more interesting than Eve. Also, ghost Lilah + dead Fred haunting W&H? Just more fueling the fire for Dark Wes.

            4) Bring Kate back. Gone for awhile is fine, but she was a very interesting character. She could have some potential in later Angel storylines.

            5) Kill Connor, but redeem him completely first.
            You've got to get behind the mule in the morning and plow.

            www.myspace.com/brettknickerbocker

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            • #7
              nice topic ! ^^

              1. no Jasmine arc.
              the season four was so scary with the rain of fire, the Beast, Angelus back, all of that for what ? world peace ?
              I think that if Charisma Carpenter wasn't pregnant at that moment, the story would be different.

              2. the begining of season 5, with more money, they could do better episodes.

              3. spike with a soul, I know, it's from Buffy, but I would like Spike came sooner in LA and be an ennemi to Angel, with Darla and Dru if possible.

              4. Pylea, even if the idea was great, seing the Angel monster was to much !
              It could be better.

              5. The idiot Connor. THis character was very interesting but his evolution was not.
              During season 4, I hated Connor and the answer to his birth was so stupid ...

              ps : sorry for my english, I try to make better sentences but it's not easy ! ^^
              Sorry if you don't understand what I write, I'm french.

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              • #8
                5. Don't let Lorne give up his moral neutrality, or his independence. the second that happened his character began to die.
                4. Keep Lindsay around after season 2, or don't bring him back in Season 5 (sidenote: no Lindsay death)
                3. No Wesley crush on Fred, no ending of Wes/Lilah, no Lilah death
                2. No evil Cordelia or no coma/death
                1. No Wes death

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by XavierZane View Post
                  5. Don't let Lorne give up his moral neutrality, or his independence. the second that happened his character began to die.
                  4. Keep Lindsay around after season 2, or don't bring him back in Season 5 (sidenote: no Lindsay death)
                  3. No Wesley crush on Fred, no ending of Wes/Lilah, no Lilah death
                  2. No evil Cordelia or no coma/death
                  1. No Wes death
                  5) I'm not sure if you mean the beginning of S5, or the end of S5. Either way, I think moral-questioning Lorne just made him all the more interesting. For as much as I love Lorne, he was kind of a one-note character. Then they gave him much more depth, and I was extremely intrigued by it.

                  4) While I'm not sure that I buy Lindsey's evil return (mostly because I think he turned a new leaf after leaving LA), once they chose to do that killing him was the only way to go. And it was extremely sad and fitting.

                  3) Really? But...Wesley would have been so less interesting. In fact, everyone would have been less interesting. Wes' crush on Fred added a lot to the emotional momentum of the final 3 seasons.

                  Alright, 2 and 1 I completely agree with.
                  You've got to get behind the mule in the morning and plow.

                  www.myspace.com/brettknickerbocker

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                  • #10
                    1. Cordy/Angel in a relationship. They only got one real kiss, That's just too cruel.
                    2. No evil Cordy, and off course no Cordy/Connor sex. *shruggs*
                    3. No dead everybody. I hate that they killed of kind of everyone in the gang. And if I only can choose one to save it would be Cordy. She is a big part of Angel, and season 5 was boring without her.
                    4. No coming to W&Hart in season 5.
                    5. Kate would stay around. I like her.

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                    • #11
                      1) Cordy of course. And I mean season 3 saint Cordy and evil Cordy in season 4. I loved the beginning of season 4, with the beast etc... But then Jasmine comes in. Even though Jasmine per se isn't a bad idea, i don't understand why they had to go through the rainf of fire, apocalypses etc. just so that Connor and Cordy could... procreate.
                      And I would have kept her alive.

                      Actually... thats' the only thing I'd change in Angel. And the whole season 1.
                      What? You?ve taught a psycho killer demon how to be human by making him watch Sex and the City?

                      1.02 Never been kissed OUT NOW/ 1.03 Damned by the bell COMING SOON

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                      • #12
                        1. NO evil Jasmine!Cordy. Instead, Cordy could have stayed higher being. Or she could have come back and then be badly injured in some fight and spend the rest of the season in coma WITH Angel and other team visiting. A lot. Because she is their friend you know.

                        2. No Fresley bliss. Fred was not even attracted to Wes the smallest bit in the very beginning. And she wanted to get back with Gunn in Release!
                        I would very much prefer looking at Wesley torturing himself with his unrecruited love towards Fred.

                        3. No killing Lilah. Lilah should have stayed as Team Angel's link with Senior Partners and their reluctant ally in S5. Or Lilah being killed but her still hanging around in W&H being the link with Senior Partners (and replacing Eve) the same way she was at Home.

                        4. No killing off Doyle so soon. He should have remained there at least for one whole season. And I would loved see Doyle getting to know Wesley. Doyle would have deserved dying in season finale and in a less crappy episode (I mean an episode that does not feature nazi demons).

                        5. No OOC!Lindsey and OOC!Spike in S5. It really seemed the writers didn't know what to do with Spike at the beginning of the season. Like the writers of Angel didn't even know what sort of character Spike was in BtVS S7!
                        Same goes to Lindsey - why let him come back as one-dimensional villain? That was just plain stupid. Lindsey was very ambiguous character, why didn't the writers want to explore more of that?
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                        • #13
                          1. No Angel/Cordy love story. It totally undermines the whole star-crossed Big Love and Pain with Buffy, which was supposed to be exceptional. Angel foreswore such earthly attachments in IWRY. Honour that sacrifice rather than throw him together with the one girl that happens to be handy and unattached. If they must have 'romantic' interests for Angel, better to explore some of the ones they set up and then discarded (Jhiera, Gwen, and/or Nina, all of whom he has more chemistry with than Cordy).

                          2. Connor coming back as a teenager so soon after being a baby works as a storytelling device (teenagers do generally make for more interesting characters than babies). But it was executed poorly. I'd make Connor less an angry, resentful teenager and more a young Champion who was hardened in the Quor'toth but still has rough edges that need smoothing.

                          3. No Spike in S5. As much as I love the character, his dying to save the world (and Buffy) doesn't mean what it was supposed to once he's so blythely brought back. Alternatively, if he's got to be on the show, make it count. They "earned" Buffy coming back in S6. Having Spike walk through walls for a few weeks doesn't quite measure up.

                          4. Pretty much everything about S4. From the moment Cordy becomes a "Higher Being," that plotline just gets silly. Small wonder they had to reboot everyone's memories and 'start over' in S5.

                          5. And, lastly, I'd have liked a couple more crossovers with Buffy.
                          Cordially,
                          Amuk

                          I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
                          Addicted to Buffy

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                          • #14



                            1. I would have explored Angel and Cordelia's romance further. I wouldn't have taken the route they did. I would have given it more of a push.


                            2. I wouldn't have had the Connor/Cordelia sex. Bring about Jasmine another way please. Evil Cordy.. Then Coma Cordy, then Dead Cordy... Not to my liking. Although 'You're Welcome' did bring about a great emotional impact.


                            3. I would have let Fred and Wesley have a little more romantic happiness before the Fred/Illyria storyline happened. They didn't even get one full episode.


                            4. I wouldn't have had Cordelia accend , I just didn't like the way that turned out. That whole "Higher Being " Thing. I loved her choosing to become a bit demon to keep her visions. I loved her vision thing but having her go to that extreme. No.


                            5. No Spike/Harmony SEX. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck. And just wrong. Some of Spike's actions felt so out of place after what we saw of him on BTVS
                            Last edited by Dazzling; 18-12-08, 01:12 PM.
                            Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
                            ****
                            TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

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                            • #15
                              1. First of all, I will agree with Sue here, no "idiot Spike", I didn't like the way he was written in season 5, a complete regression from the Spike in BtVS season 7.

                              Then...

                              2. No to evil Cordy
                              3. No to champion Cordy
                              4. Yes to keeping Lilah
                              5. No to Cordy/Connor sex
                              avatar credit: me!!

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                              • #16
                                1. Cordelia, i think in alot of ways Cordy was used wrong, the higer being, the pregnancy, the coma/death, i didnt like seeing Angel and Cordy being teased into a relationship, i just think it would have been wrong

                                2. Fred & Wes, i think this should have obviously been together longer, i loved the Illyriah character but i was sad that it was at the expense of Fred, not sure if i would have changed that

                                3. Connor, the character was just used so wrong in seasons 3 & 4, we needed more of a season 5 Connor, like many of you have said, the whole Cordy/Connor sex thing was just wrong aswell

                                4. Wolfram & Hart, didnt like the fact that Angel took over, it didnt feel the same as when they fought back in their own way, now they still fought but in Wolfram & Harts way, didnt like that side of the gang

                                5. Would like to have seen Angel or Spike be made human at the end of season 5, they talked so much about the prophecy for it to never happen in the series (i havent got round to ATF yet) it needed to happen on screen

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                                • #17
                                  1. I'll echo almost everyone else - no sainted, evil or dead Cordy

                                  2. No Eve. That should have been Lilah, damnit.

                                  3. A lot less Connor in S4

                                  4. Dru would have come back in S5 (not in flashbacks)

                                  5. Sahjhan, the non-corporeal being who was not supposed to be able to touch things yet who constantly seemed to be picking stuff up, opening gates and smoking. I liked the character, but that aspect was handled sloppily.

                                  6. Since I used #1 to echo everyone else, I'll add that I would very much have liked to know what happened to Kate.

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                                  • #18
                                    1. Do not let prior 'ships fans' tastes dictate the bounds of the storyline. This was an issue on "Buffy", but even moreso on "Angel" -- they backed off not one, not two, but *three* different romantic storylines for Angel out of fear of how fans would react.

                                    2. More Faith -- "Angel" is where the character was written best, and she should have been there longer.

                                    3. Better handling of Charisma's pregnancy by the show. I don't care about the Jasmine arc, or her having to go half-demon, I care about the odd and tacked on pregnancy angle and then her getting fired.
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                      1. Do not let prior 'ships fans' tastes dictate the bounds of the storyline. This was an issue on "Buffy", but even moreso on "Angel" -- they backed off not one, not two, but *three* different romantic storylines for Angel out of fear of how fans would react.
                                      Which romantic relations are you talking about?

                                      Cordelia (this one I get, but I'm not sure if they were backing out or went with the 'doomed relation that never was' on purpose)

                                      Kate? (Wasn't this something about the actress leaving?)

                                      and who else? Darla? Nina?





                                      Btw, if they were really backing out, I agree with you. I hate it when writers let the fans influence their story in such a way.
                                      Last edited by Nina; 27-12-08, 08:46 PM.

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                                      • #20
                                        I'm sure this is more than five, but...

                                        In Season 5, I would have kept Cordelia. What I would have done was have had Cordelia not at Wolfram & Hart. She would have woken up in 5.01 and been in total shock to find everyone else at Wolfram & Hart. Instead of joining them, she'd re-open Angel Investigations alone. Her half-demon side would have been explored further, which would be how she slayed demons and vampire without anyone's help. She'd later be joined my Spike.

                                        Throughout the season, she'd cross paths with Angel, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne; constantly reminding them that Wolfram & Hart is evil, no matter who's running it. So, while Eve is tempting Angel to the dark side, Cordelia would be the one trying to keep him one of the good guys.

                                        As the season progressed, Gunn would begin to struggle with who he's become and who he was. He'd eventually return to Angel Investigations because of his role in Fred's death, which would of happened sooner. Fred's death would have made Lorne go back to Angel Investigations as well. This would leave Wesley, but Fred's death has him so detached, he's basically not there anyway. Leaving Angel alone. This would cause Angel to realize he's made a big mistake by going to Wolfram & Hart, because without seeing his friend's there, he begins to see the true evil at Wolfram & Hart, because he's forced to interact with other people there.

                                        Because of this, Angel, Wesley, and Illyria would end up at the Hyperion as well. That way, when the show was canceled, it would have had closure. The gang getting back to the basic, but if it wasn't, there'd be more to explore, like the repercussion of turning their backs on Wolfram & Hart caused, like the return of everyone's favorite ruthless bitch: Lilah Morgan, as the acting CEO of Wolfram & Hart during Angel's absence.

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