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  • Jasmine?s involvements

    Kay so I was thinking of starting like a kind of list of all the strings that Jasmine pulled in the life of Angel and his friends, and if we can find what was the expected outcome or in what manner did she produced it.
    For instance I was remembering, I am almost sure that Jasmine said that she brought Angel back from hell, I need someone to corroborate this for me and all the other things she said about the gang.
    I think a lot of us are interested in the part she played in bringing Angel back, I think it would be a a great story that they haven?t used. The 100 years of Angel in hell how did he get out? Did he have help? What other people/demons did he meet in hell? Did Jasmine have a direct involvement like opening a portal in Angels nose out of nowhere or did a zealot from her helped.

  • #2
    It's difficult to find out what Jasmine really did and what she just used. Especially because the Jasmine story was a last minute retcon. They used things from the past seasons and turned it in Jasmine's work. Which is something I can't really accept. You could even say that Jasmine made sure that Darla met Liam 250 years ago.

    I prefer to think that she used things that just happened. Some things I could give her credit for; Connor's birth and of course Cordy's time in heaven. But in the most cases I like to think that she did nothing.

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    • #3
      Yes, I agree with Nina. I think Jasmine claims a lot fo things her own that really aren't. What she creates is one big delusion and lie, so why shouldn't she lie to her acolytes? I don't think she had a hand in Angel's earlier life (or unlife ), I think where she comes in is Connor's birth. Who brought Angel back, in my personal opinion, and who saved him in Amends, are the Powers That Be.
      Sin is what I feast upon
      I'm forging my crematorium
      Your tomb is waiting here for you
      Welcome to my ritual

      -Judas Priest, Death

      Comment


      • #4
        On the one hand, I agree that Jasmine and Skip had exagerrated a lot of her accomplishments--for instance, it wouldn't seem that Jasmine cares enough about characters like Fred, Gunn, and Wesley to manipulate their lives. I also don't remember Jasmine (or Skip) claiming credit for bringing Angel back from hell.

        Still, I think it makes a lot of sense to suspect that Jasmine might be the one who brought Angel back from hell. After all, it is one of the canon's great mysteries, and Jasmine is one of the main beings who is powerful enough to do that and who would want to. Similarly with Darla. The Senior Partners think that bringing back Darla was all their idea, but we know that they are infiltrated by agents for rival demons. (Remember that mail-room guy in Quickening?)

        So yeah, it does make sense. Angel and Darla both got slain just a few years before Jasmine was ready to be born. Perhaps the Powers that Be had it planned that way, as a plan to make sure that Jasmine could never come to Earth. But Jasmine was able to bring them both back. It makes a lot of sense, in view of how a vampire coming back from the dead is supposed to be just as miraculous as vampires giving birth or having souls. And yet there you have it, the two vampires that Jasmine needs have both returned from being slain. Maybe it is Jasmine's plan rather than a coincidence.
        Last edited by Ojuice5001; 24-11-08, 12:36 PM.
        "When you have an obsession you pretty much fit it into your schedule no matter what." --Cordelia

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        • #5
          The episode textually says that the First Evil brought Angel back in order to kill Buffy. The writer intended that. The dream sequence sums up the First Evil's plan. Beljoxa's Eye expanded on the First Evil's need for Buffy to die again--and Angelus would be an obvious tool to achieve that. Giles, who is always used by the writers for exposition of phlebotinum, states that the Bringers are capable of bringing someone back from Hell. Anything else is not textually supported.

          However, it is clearly someone in the Powers That Be that decides to save Angel with the snow and send Doyle to Angel. We also know that the other Powers, with the exception of sending Cordelia down to help Angel twice, don't do a whole lot and don't like to get their hands dirty in direct actions. Jasmine is the exception because she likes to get her hands dirty with manipulation. Amends strikes me as a PTB who is willing to manipulate the natural order of things.

          Skip is another case of writer-intended phlebotinum exposition.

          Why did Doyle get the visions in the first place? Why did they pass to Cordelia? Jasmine was used to explain all of that.

          And Skip was right about Lorne. Fred's wacky attempts to open portals just happened to open one where he was and send him to Caritas. Jasmine often used Lorne to manipulate Angel into going places or bringing things to the gang. Lorne was the one who sent Angel to the Trial to save Darla, which really earned him Connor's life--direct connection to Jasmine. Lorne also was the one who brought the Spin the Bottle potion and woke up Jasmine. Lorne was heavily manipulated by Jasmine in many steps along the way.

          I personally believe that Jasmine kicked in her manipulations around the snow in Amends and leading Doyle to Angel.

          And we still don't know who was really behind Whistler.
          Last edited by NileQT87; 24-11-08, 04:13 PM.

          "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
          "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

          Comment


          • #6
            I don?t remember

            Could someone elaborate on the part where you say that First Evil brought Angel back from hell because it sounds familiar but I cannot really recall it. Also the part where Giles says that the bringers can bring people back from the dead, is that from Amends?

            As for another subject I am always unclear about The Powers, because at times I get the feeling that they were not that involved with Angel or seem to care about him in season 5. Because the only Power really interested in him and the team was Jasmine.
            I always thought that was the reason because they didn?t get another deliverer for the visions, or any direct connection to them. Even though they needed it the most being in the belly of the beast, and I don?t think the Powers are selfish, I don?t think they would take away the visions just because the gang teamed up with W&H.
            Anyone thinks the same about the visions and Powers?

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            • #7
              Nile, thanks for elaborating, I've seen most episodes once only until now.


              Justified question there about no more visions in Season Five. Maybe Angel did not need them anymore because he was inside "Evil Inc." already and could see plenty of things he could stop in order to do good?
              Sin is what I feast upon
              I'm forging my crematorium
              Your tomb is waiting here for you
              Welcome to my ritual

              -Judas Priest, Death

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Suvarta View Post
                Could someone elaborate on the part where you say that First Evil brought Angel back from hell because it sounds familiar but I cannot really recall it. Also the part where Giles says that the bringers can bring people back from the dead, is that from Amends?
                As far as I'm aware Giles did say that The First has the power to bring Angel back and the FE certainly takes credit for it but keep in mind that it's purpose was the make soulled Angel feel worthless and that his path would invariably lead to darkness, it makes sense that if the PTBs brought him back, the FE would leave that out because it would give Angel hope to be a champion. So it's possible they brought him back but rememeber that the PTBs (and Jasmine) had interest in him too, popular guy is our Angel.

                As for another subject I am always unclear about The Powers, because at times I get the feeling that they were not that involved with Angel or seem to care about him in season 5. Because the only Power really interested in him and the team was Jasmine.
                Angel actually felt this way at the end of Season 4. After Jasmine's brief reign, Angel then decided that people have to be responsible for their own destiny anyway.

                I always thought that was the reason because they didn?t get another deliverer for the visions, or any direct connection to them. Even though they needed it the most being in the belly of the beast, and I don?t think the Powers are selfish, I don?t think they would take away the visions just because the gang teamed up with W&H.
                Anyone thinks the same about the visions and Powers?
                Interesting theory. In any respect, they did intervene (presumably) through Cordy in YW anyway, so it's possible they still care about Angel's destiny.

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                • #9
                  Jasminr did nothing for me, but her exxagerations about how she controlled every decision they made could also be Jasmine and Skip showing off. I remember Anya on BTVS saying in an episode that demons sometimes exxagerate their power. "I?m so rotten they don?t have a name for it".

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                  • #10
                    Sadly, i don't think Jasmine was exagerating. THere were too many questions in the Angel verse and the writers used Jasmine to answer all. In a bad way, i think.
                    Last edited by cliomiao; 29-11-08, 10:05 PM.
                    What? You?ve taught a psycho killer demon how to be human by making him watch Sex and the City?

                    1.02 Never been kissed OUT NOW/ 1.03 Damned by the bell COMING SOON

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by cliomiao View Post
                      Sadly, i don't think Jasmine was exagerating. THere were too many questions in the Angel verse and the writers used Jasmine all. In a bad way, i think.
                      I think you are right, that is what gives me the feeling that after season 4 the powers are not that interested in Angel until YW and we are not even certain about that, cause from the conversation between Angel and Cordy I got the feeling that it was Cordy?s will to deliver a message to Angel because the Powers "owe her" a favor. Not because they sent her.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cliomiao View Post
                        Sadly, i don't think Jasmine was exagerating. THere were too many questions in the Angel verse and the writers used Jasmine to answer all. In a bad way, i think.
                        Ok two things. Keep in mind that Jasmine didn't actually say that she controlled everyone choices, Skip did and also keep in mind he had vested interests in getting the Fang Gang to believe that they are powerless because Jasmine was still vulnerable at that point.

                        I still think Gunn's speach is spot on. Think about it, with all Jasmine's planning, she didn't predict her own death surely, so choices seem to matter. Well, at the very least, we have no absolute proof that they don't so it's important to treat it all like it's up to you.

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                        • #13
                          People are misconstruing Gunn here. Gunn said that Jasmine could very well have planned everything up to that point (and we have no reason to disbelieve Skip or Jasmine about what she did or how much the PTBs care). The comment about Lorne is particularly keen because he really was instrumental in two direct connections to Jasmine's plan (The Trial and Spin the Bottle). What Gunn said is that you can plan all you want, but the end will always come up a question mark.

                          Jasmine had everything planned but the end. Her plan was impervious until the end and was only safe while she was protected by love (love for Cordy, love from Connor--who she worried about when he wasn't affected by her spell and then started asking questions about Cordy--or the love her mindless meat puppets felt). Jasmine's unforeseen wild card was that Cordy and Connor would share her blood and that her blood would break her power. She was genuinely surprised by that revelation. Before that, she was safe because no one knew what she was manipulating while it was happening (and not all of the moves were subtle--two vampires popping out a kid is not subtle). A lot of Jasmine's plans were chess moves.

                          Jasmine gave Doyle the visions. Doyle gave the visions to Cordy. The visions send Angel around to wherever Jasmine wants to send him. She can literally make him go anywhere with those visions. She can also make Cordy get a boost of self-worth because she has the visions. Fred caused Lorne to leave Pylea. Lorne sent Angel to the trials (information given to him by other personages that visited Caritas) to win a life for Connor. Cordy was made to feel important by Skip and was tricked into choosing whether to die or become demon in order to keep helping Angel--her humanity allowed this manipulation because Doyle could never have been forced into this decision; this gave Cordy the correct demon body that was needed by Jasmine for a vessel. Cordy's magic glowing happened every time the vessel was at risk (the sluks and Connor's knife). Cordy's soul colonic for Connor also inserted a bond between the two that Jasmine needed to set up; this is when the manipulation of Connor's emotions started. Then Jasmine set up Cordy to get a huge boost of self-worth and a feeling of her taking a step up for the greater good; in reality, Jasmine needed to hitchhike back with her. Jasmine must have known that Cordy would try to interact with the world in a way that the other PTBs would not like; moving the slot machine is what got her kicked out of floaty land and Jasmine latched on for the ride. Lorne was used again by acolytes at Caritas with a spell to wake up Jasmine when Cordy came back with amnesia.

                          Now, we know that Jasmine has been manipulating since at least May 1996. That's when Fred went to Pylea and Fred opened a portal that sent Lorne to L.A. What else happened that same month? Angel got a visit from Whistler. I'd really like to know which PTB Whistler worked for.

                          All of those baby steps were manipulations. Skip didn't pull Fred and Lorne's names out of thin air for no reason. Lorne caused Angel to win Connor's life and wake up Jasmine. The visions manipulated everyone to do whatever she needed.

                          The interesting part about the PTBs is that they have only directly interfered three times without Jasmine. It is a theme that the other PTBs sit on their behinds, don't like to interfere (hence, kicking Cordy out when she interfered) and maybe don't really care. The first was Darla to stop Connor from unleashing Jasmine--which means Jasmine went rogue and they were trying to stop one of their own (remember that Jasmine was one of the Powers). The second was sending Cordy as a favor--Cordy's own words were that she was owed. Cordy is also seen only able to flutter leaves and she isn't allowed to help Wesley. The third was another trip to Angel to show him his future. The PTB have allowed Cordy to help, but they limit her, dislike her interfering with the natural order of things (like moving a slot machine) and the first time she visited was because they owed her.

                          Overall, what has Jasmine said about the PTBs that probably wasn't true? Anya has also said that she used to tell the truth all the time when she was evil. The best villains do. Jasmine is a big fan of telling the truth, as can be seen when she tells about the billions she can save by devouring a few each day. Her modus operandi is that of someone very power hungry who honestly believes that she is helping more people than she is hurting. Her gift of world peace is something that she believed in. She also believed that the other PTBs don't really care about humanity the way she does and Angel Investigations always backed her on that sentiment--"The Powers That Screw You".

                          If I were to guess where Jasmine latched onto Angel to really start moving him around... The snow in Amends is affecting the natural order of things the same way that Cordy would and the other PTBs generally seem to disapprove of. Jasmine's entire belief was that the PTBs should interact with and affect humanity more. It seems more like Jasmine who wants to control everyone directly than the other PTBs that threw Cordy out over a slot machine.
                          Last edited by NileQT87; 30-11-08, 08:16 AM.

                          "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                          "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have no doubt that Jasmine and Skip were exaggerating a bit. But one has to go one step further and ask why then did Angel get the vision of the black thorn.

                            Not all of the visions came from jasmine, But some might have.

                            For instance In the First Episode. Doyle's first mission for angel was not about Tina at all. There was no way to save her. The vision was about Cordy. It was designed to put Cordy in to place.

                            And Doyle's first vision got him in play and also was the ultimate cause of his death.

                            The Visions Cordy got when Angel was away from Cordy can be taken a couple ways. They were light and pretty easy, because either the Powers were trying to protect the group and keep it intact for angels return, or they were a cry for Angel to return to the fight.

                            There is a bucnh of evidence that there was massive guidence through the vissions. The PDB had to know that Cordy could not survive the visions. So at some point she would become half demon or die.
                            ===Quote of the day===
                            "To read makes our speaking English good"

                            Xander

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                            • #15
                              I also personally think the visions stopped when they joined W&H because it probably would have caused them more problems than it would have solved. You can't be getting visions from one side whilst working for the other side and have that be Ok with your new boss. It probably would have ended badly, and whats to say that the Wolf, Ram and Hart couldn't have manipulated those visions once everyone was under their roof and under contract.

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                              • #16
                                Wow Nile I suppose you alredy know this but you know a lot man, I always kind of only remember the generals of all the story but you have very interesting facts.
                                So I think in some way we can say that Angel?s journey has always been mixed up with Jasmin?s machinations, I am not trying to say that he has not grown up emotionally nor anything like that, but that his true destiny has been mixed with her manipulations. I guess that maybe the journey towards the shanshu apocalypse did not start until season five. And its only logical that it needed more than one season to develop fully.

                                Any ideas on Gunn. I remember Jasmine saying something about the death of Gunn?s sister, how could that be a part of the plan? Would it be the emotional factor that made Gunn leave his gang, and if so what did Jasmine accomplish with that?
                                And about Wesley. I think Sahj?an was manipulated too at some level, because he was the one that changed the prophecy about Angel and Connor, because he was interested in his survival, but also that was a curcial point for Jasmine to be born. Because that single fact made Wesley kidnap Connor and him growing up faster that he would have in earth to be exactly in the time table of Jasmine?s birth.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                                  People are misconstruing Gunn here. Gunn said that Jasmine could very well have planned everything up to that point
                                  Actually, it's not clear exactly what Gunn believes. He doesn't say that's it's likely that Jasmine has controlled all these events or not. He says if it's true, that final outcome is still a question mark.

                                  (and we have no reason to disbelieve Skip or Jasmine about what she did or how much the PTBs care).
                                  I believe that Jasmine believes the other Powers don't care but this doesn't exactly answer how much they were or were not involved. I'll go into more detail about this below, but Skip? It's uncertain how much he is telling the truth about or how much he believes. As I said, I will not only look at the likelyhood of what they are saying is true but also if they have any vested interests in saying what they are saying. This a possibility as Skip was clearly against the fang gangs intervention in Jasmine's plan. He actually says later on he is still 'working'. As I've said, the best way to perpetuate the powerful's plan is to convince the relatively less powerful, that they have no power.


                                  The comment about Lorne is particularly keen because he really was instrumental in two direct connections to Jasmine's plan (The Trial and Spin the Bottle). What Gunn said is that you can plan all you want, but the end will always come up a question mark.
                                  But the important part of the speech is that you never know when your choices matter, so it's important to treat every moment as if you have free will.



                                  Jasmine had everything planned but the end. Her plan was impervious until the end and was only safe while she was protected by love (love for Cordy, love from Connor--who she worried about when he wasn't affected by her spell and then started asking questions about Cordy--or the love her mindless meat puppets felt). Jasmine's unforeseen wild card was that Cordy and Connor would share her blood and that her blood would break her power. She was genuinely surprised by that revelation. Before that, she was safe because no one knew what she was manipulating while it was happening (and not all of the moves were subtle--two vampires popping out a kid is not subtle). A lot of Jasmine's plans were chess moves.
                                  Exactly and the fact that she didn't know that they would share her blood link and therefore have power over her, proves that she didn't know everything. Of course the major events were not down the chance but the question becomes, how much she was actually manipulating events, again I'll go into more detail below.

                                  Jasmine gave Doyle the visions. Doyle gave the visions to Cordy
                                  .

                                  These are prime examples for things that we know where not their choices. We know Cordy didn't ask for the visions and we could assume the same of Doyle considering his surprise when he got his first one. However, this isn't the troubling notion...

                                  The visions send Angel around to wherever Jasmine wants to send him. She can literally make him go anywhere with those visions.
                                  It's uncertain whether Jasmine was literally controlling every single vision and whether she would need to.

                                  She can also make Cordy get a boost of self-worth because she has the visions. Fred caused Lorne to leave Pylea. Lorne sent Angel to the trials (information given to him by other personages that visited Caritas) to win a life for Connor. Cordy was made to feel important by Skip and was tricked into choosing whether to die or become demon in order to keep helping Angel--her humanity allowed this manipulation because Doyle could never have been forced into this decision; this gave Cordy the correct demon body that was needed by Jasmine for a vessel. Cordy's magic glowing happened every time the vessel was at risk (the sluks and Connor's knife). Cordy's soul colonic for Connor also inserted a bond between the two that Jasmine needed to set up; this is when the manipulation of Connor's emotions started. Then Jasmine set up Cordy to get a huge boost of self-worth and a feeling of her taking a step up for the greater good; in reality, Jasmine needed to hitchhike back with her. Jasmine must have known that Cordy would try to interact with the world in a way that the other PTBs would not like; moving the slot machine is what got her kicked out of floaty land and Jasmine latched on for the ride. Lorne was used again by acolytes at Caritas with a spell to wake up Jasmine when Cordy came back with amnesia.
                                  It's very possible that Jasmine could have planned most if not all of these events. Certainly, I'd say the Cordy was manipulated to become half demon and the ascend because Skip was responsible for these events and pertain directly to Jasmine's coming.

                                  Now, we know that Jasmine has been manipulating since at least May 1996. That's when Fred went to Pylea and Fred opened a portal that sent Lorne to L.A. What else happened that same month? Angel got a visit from Whistler. I'd really like to know which PTB Whistler worked for.
                                  Jasmine: Manipulating Since 1996. She should have had business cards printed, lol, but seriously, if Jasmine is responsible for Whistler, we don't know if Whistler knew it or not. Of course we as the fans would perhaps prefer to think not, but more later...

                                  All of those baby steps were manipulations. Skip didn't pull Fred and Lorne's names out of thin air for no reason. Lorne caused Angel to win Connor's life and wake up Jasmine. The visions manipulated everyone to do whatever she needed.

                                  The interesting part about the PTBs is that they have only directly interfered three times without Jasmine. It is a theme that the other PTBs sit on their behinds, don't like to interfere (hence, kicking Cordy out when she interfered) and maybe don't really care. The first was Darla to stop Connor from unleashing Jasmine--which means Jasmine went rogue and they were trying to stop one of their own (remember that Jasmine was one of the Powers). The second was sending Cordy as a favor--Cordy's own words were that she was owed. Cordy is also seen only able to flutter leaves and she isn't allowed to help Wesley. The third was another trip to Angel to show him his future. The PTB have allowed Cordy to help, but they limit her, dislike her interfering with the natural order of things (like moving a slot machine) and the first time she visited was because they owed her.
                                  I'm still not sure exactly what the PTBs did and didn't do aside the obvious inventions Jasmine made...

                                  Overall, what has Jasmine said about the PTBs that probably wasn't true? Anya has also said that she used to tell the truth all the time when she was evil. The best villains do. Jasmine is a big fan of telling the truth, as can be seen when she tells about the billions she can save by devouring a few each day. Her modus operandi is that of someone very power hungry who honestly believes that she is helping more people than she is hurting. Her gift of world peace is something that she believed in. She also believed that the other PTBs don't really care about humanity the way she does and Angel Investigations always backed her on that sentiment--"The Powers That Screw You".
                                  Well we don't know. She said the other powers simple don't care but Angel decided that the price of Jasmine's intervention was too high. Jasmine wasn't necessarily evil anyway, so her truth saying may be irrelevent in this instance. Angelus was self confessed evil but Jasmine believed in what she was doing. She may have had an ego on her but she may just have believed in making things right and couldn't have stomached humans having free will (think of the Film I, Robot.)

                                  If I were to guess where Jasmine latched onto Angel to really start moving him around... The snow in Amends is affecting the natural order of things the same way that Cordy would and the other PTBs generally seem to disapprove of. Jasmine's entire belief was that the PTBs should interact with and affect humanity more. It seems more like Jasmine who wants to control everyone directly than the other PTBs that threw Cordy out over a slot machine.
                                  Going into more detail about manipulation as promised: I saw Jasmine as just this, a powerful manipulator. I don't however think this required her to control all these events. I see her as a player like say, Holland Manners. He was another mastermind, without any preternatural powers but he was able to plan and control, but it wasn't necessary for him to control everything, merely to predict and take advantage of people's mental states etc.

                                  As a show, I don't it would be as satisfying if the Skip was actually right and the heroes intentions don't mean anything and this is my point. This why Gunn's speech is important. We cannot prove exactly what the Higher Powers are responsible for so it's important to place value in the individual choices, all of them. Even the Jasmine was on earth inside Cordy, she pulled a lot of strings but it didn't negate the concept of AI having choices.

                                  It's integral the Angel's fighting philosophies. Don't mistake me. I'm not saying Jasmine didn't control all these events but I'm merely defending the concept of our heroes choices.

                                  Originally posted by Bloody Billy View Post
                                  I have no doubt that Jasmine and Skip were exaggerating a bit. But one has to go one step further and ask why then did Angel get the vision of the black thorn.

                                  Not all of the visions came from jasmine, But some might have.

                                  This is pretty much what I'm saying and we've already got a reason for why they may have done it. The concept that all the vision came from Jasmine before her death almost makes the rest of the PTBs redundant from narrative perspective (aside from the times we assume they did intervene. Jasmine never took credit for the visions and we don't know for sure that Jasmine needed to control everything. As long as it didn't conflict with her plans, she may have let it slide.

                                  For instance In the First Episode. Doyle's first mission for angel was not about Tina at all. There was no way to save her. The vision was about Cordy. It was designed to put Cordy in to place.
                                  Maybe or mabye not. It's possible some things were put in place (Cordy meeting with Angel etc) and that some were done to chance or bad luck (Tina dying etc.) Again, conceptually, if such things are all set in stone, why bother? Why try?

                                  And Doyle's first vision got him in play and also was the ultimate cause of his death.

                                  The Visions Cordy got when Angel was away from Cordy can be taken a couple ways. They were light and pretty easy, because either the Powers were trying to protect the group and keep it intact for angels return, or they were a cry for Angel to return to the fight.
                                  Yep, all possible .

                                  There is a bucnh of evidence that there was massive guidence through the vissions. The PDB had to know that Cordy could not survive the visions. So at some point she would become half demon or die.
                                  It's possible that the PTBs allowed certain things to happen, hoping that our champions could stop it. It's uncertain what they know and what they can do or what they are willing to do. I place little faith in them anyway. even if their intentions are noble, we may not agree. Like Angel and Gunn imply, it's important to trust our own choices.


                                  Any ideas on Gunn. I remember Jasmine saying something about the death of Gunn?s sister, how could that be a part of the plan? Would it be the emotional factor that made Gunn leave his gang, and if so what did Jasmine accomplish with that?
                                  And about Wesley. I think Sahj?an was manipulated too at some level, because he was the one that changed the prophecy about Angel and Connor, because he was interested in his survival, but also that was a curcial point for Jasmine to be born. Because that single fact made Wesley kidnap Connor and him growing up faster that he would have in earth to be exactly in the time table of Jasmine?s birth.
                                  From Skip's theory, yes. Everyone was where they needed to be. Wes sleeping with Lilah didn't seem to have a direct influence but if were are to believe Skip (and as I've said we don't have to) it places Wes in prime position to be manipulated and he was. Killing Lilah was part of the plan to keep Wes, a man known for his deduction, off balance.
                                  Last edited by kana; 01-12-08, 10:25 AM.

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                                  • #18
                                    The trouble is that Jasmien herself is the only one who tells us about her deeds (or what she claims to be her deeds), so it really coms down to if we choose to believe her or don't.
                                    I for my part belong to the "Jasmine-exaggerates-Faction". Of course I can't prove that she didn't plant every single vision in Doyle's and then Cordelia's head (just like none of us can prove that she did), but I tend to think that she did not, because I'm not sure if that would really have been in her interest. It strikes me as more what the Powers That Be would want, but the trouble is that we don't really get to "know" them either.

                                    I rather feel that Jasmine stepped in at some point and then started twisting events, giving little nudges in several places, but that she did not control so much entirely on her own.
                                    Sin is what I feast upon
                                    I'm forging my crematorium
                                    Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                    Welcome to my ritual

                                    -Judas Priest, Death

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