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Fred is dead/is Fred dead?

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  • Fred is dead/is Fred dead?

    I always believed that Fred died in 'A Hole in the World', her soul was gone and another being took over her body. The Fred we see in ATF is not more than Illyria channeling Fred ... at least that's how I understand it.


    But all over the web I see polls after Illyria got shot, with the 'Is Fred dead?' question. And people believing that Fred is still alive, did I miss something? How and when did 'Fred is dead' change in 'Fred is still alive'?
    Last edited by Nina; 29-10-08, 11:40 PM.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    I always believed that Fred died in 'A Hole in the World', her soul was gone and another being took over her body. The Fred we see in ATF is not more than Illyria channeling Fred ... at least that's how I undertand it.


    But all over the web I see polls after Illyria got shot, with the 'Is Fred dead?' question. And people believing that Fred is still alive, did I miss something? How and when did 'Fred is dead' change in 'Fred is still alive'?
    I'm in the same boat as you. Fred should be completely gone. Her soul was destroyed, that means she isn't in "heaven" or a higher power, etc. She has been wiped out and, in saying that, she has had the worst fate/death in all of the verse.

    As much as I liked Fred, I really hope they don't back peddle on this issue. I had a real problem with the Warren mistake and this would be similar, in my opinion.

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    • #3
      Technically, Fred is dead. At least that's what the writers wanted us to believe at that point, wasn't it? They kept on emphasizing how Fred's soul got destroyed and there was nothing left but a shell that Illyria took over.

      In my opinion, it was the most senseless death in the Buffyverse. It made me feel emotionally used and (to me) it seemed as if Joss wanted it there just for the shock value, more than anything else. What irks me most, however, is what he had planned for Season Six. Around the time 'Angel' ended, I read numerous articles that said that Joss planned to have Illyria morph into Fred more often and they had this whole thing planned that would have Fred resurface since the memories and all were still there. Illyria and Fred would share the same body and both would be there. I don't remember clearly if these were simply rumors or if Joss seriously planned something of the sort. This bothered me a lot because it seems like it would have been another one of those things where the fact that her soul got destroyed would be a non-issue and as great as having Fred back on the show would have been, I'd prefer if her death actually meant something in the long run.
      Banner and avatar by Nina

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Ameer View Post

        In my opinion, it was the most senseless death in the Buffyverse. It made me feel emotionally used and (to me) it seemed as if Joss wanted it there just for the shock value, more than anything else. What irks me most, however, is what he had planned for Season Six. Around the time 'Angel' ended, I read numerous articles that said that Joss planned to have Illyria morph into Fred more often and they had this whole thing planned that would have Fred resurface since the memories and all were still there. Illyria and Fred would share the same body and both would be there. I don't remember clearly if these were simply rumors or if Joss seriously planned something of the sort. This bothered me a lot because it seems like it would have been another one of those things where the fact that her soul got destroyed would be a non-issue and as great as having Fred back on the show would have been, I'd prefer if her death actually meant something in the long run.
        From what I remember, Joss was planning on leaving Fred as Fred until the very end of Season Five. Thus, we would have had more time with Fred and Wesley and her death would have been all the more heartbreaking. Season Six, as I recall, would bring into question just how much of Fred is left and if that remaining image of her is enough to treat Illyria like Fred. Sort of like how when a vampire takes your body it becomes an image of you, without your soul, but it will never be you. Vis a vis con Fred. (Yes, French-Spanish. Franish.) I agree that her death was slightly empty, but had Joss had the rest of the season (and more) to explore Fred and then have her become Illyria, leaving the future open for speculation, I don't think I would feel the same.

        But, alas, these are sad what-ifs. Sort of like how Wesley would never have died if the show was not canceled.

        Grr. Argh.
        You've got to get behind the mule in the morning and plow.

        www.myspace.com/brettknickerbocker

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Ameer View Post
          Technically, Fred is dead. At least that's what the writers wanted us to believe at that point, wasn't it? They kept on emphasizing how Fred's soul got destroyed and there was nothing left but a shell that Illyria took over.
          But the line that Fred's soul was "consumed in the fires of resurrection" was told to them, gloatingly, by one of the bad guys. There's no compelling reason to assume he was speaking the absolute, unvarnished truth. I've always assumed, even before AtF was published, that there was a chance Fred's soul survived, perhaps melded in with Illyria's to form a fusion. That's why Illyria has suddenly developed a conscience and a tolerance of humans, although she'd refuse to ever admit it.

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          • #6
            I want Fred to stay gone and for this Fred we see in Hell-A to purely be a product of being in hell and the weirdness that happens down there. I liked Fred, I enjoyed seeing someone totally normal with brains being involved in the Angel storyline. Pretty much all the people in Angel had something supernatural or demonic about them, Fred was just Fred. I prefer Illyria as an overall character than Fred but thats not why I want Fred to truly be gone. I want her to be gone because I'm sick of people coming back alive or as walking corpses in the Buffy/Angelverse, death has stopped meaning anything. I'd like for someone to stay dead and for it to be a huge loss and mean somthing. Not just as a plot device. Fred's death had nothing to do with Fred, or in many ways Ilyria it was just a way to advance the Wesley storyline along even more it seemed.

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