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"Angel: After the Fall" Issue #13 Spoiler Discussion Thread

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  • "Angel: After the Fall" Issue #13 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Well, that was a very cool issue in most respects.

    The very good stuff to me is pretty much all Connor driven. Not only him beating Gunn's ass silly, but also how he is so invested in "Cordelia" the dragon, and still protective of Gwen -- he genuinely loves her. It's also how he is in the write place and time to bring it back to Angel. Everything Angel told Kate, and Kate told Connor, Connor now basically tells Angel. I suppose one could have seen that coming, but it is still excellently done. And it ties "After the Fall" into a mythological and philosophical theme that ran through the whole televised series. Excellently pulled off.

    And I really liked Angel's dealings with Cordelia... although I'd have liked for her to steal another kiss (or for him too). Angel's reasoning was completely valid, and indeed, it feels like his emotions overriding him, love for Connor, not reason, not renewed belief (although Connor's talk helped) that makes him fight.

    Now, though, we come to my major, fundamental unhappiness. It's been building for a while based on interviews, but it's still going to have felt screwy. Spike shows up (complete with bevy of inexplicably affectionate Slayers?) and Connor needs Angel back on his feet, and we all know this can only go one of two ways.

    1. Spike will have to sire Angel. This creates an astounding amount of continuity and mythological problems to solve. Either we'll A) completely ignore the vampire mythology and Angel will spring back to his feet normal and ensouled with his curse and all, B) he'll spring back to his feet completely ensouled sans curse, like Spike, C) he'll spring back to his feet like Lawson, with a sort of penumbral soul and a much harder personal dilemma, or D) he'll spring back to his feet and, after a Darla-like moment of anguish, be Angelus again. I'll say right now, A or B will absolutely destroy this series for me. Both are in complete contradiction to the established vampire mythology of the Buffyverse, and "it's Hell-A" isn't explanation enough, IMO. D creates some storytelling possibilities, but in a crowded story, I'm not sure about a new Angelus arc, especially when the point would be to get him into the fight quickly. Of those four, C is the only one that really takes us somewhere new and interesting in the story from a vampire perspective. But, I'm pretty starkly against Angel becoming a vampire again anyway, so while I know most will love it, and it's not anything Brian or Joss has to apologize for, I'm bound to be disappointed by any way they do it. A couple other continuity issues revamping him right now would raise are that vampires don't come back right away, and we would be ignoring completely the other possibility which is...

    2. Angel will spontaneously regenerate as a human. We've had this foreshadowed for a while. The Slayers keep coming back. Gunn's vampires apparently have been coming back. Spike just came back. It all happens in that building. Ostensibly, as soon as Angel "dies", whatever mojo is going on in that building that turns into a no harm, no foul training zone will kick in, and he'll be back on his feet, still human. I hope this is what happens, of course, but I'm not optimistic. But, seriously, it absolutely *must* be dealt with in the story if it's not what happens. We can't have Spike just spontaneously UNDUST, show up talking about how easy it is to not be dead in Hell-A, and then re-vamp Angel without the story even addressing why he didn't just... get better, can't we? I really, really hope this is what happens with Angel. The set up seems to be there. All the revamping stuff could be a mislead. I'm hoping.

    As to the rest of the issue... I like Gunn as a villain. I like his emotional shifts, his arrogance, but also how he suddenly feels like he's been screwed over, and then suddenly he sees his opportunity and goes for it. Apparently, his visions told him he'd be killing "Fred"? He did have a chance in Chapter 9, though, didn't he? Regardless, at least we know she's not invulnerable in Fred mode. And we know how Illyria gets out. The bad news is I have to assume that the real Fred is well and truly gone at this point if she was ever really there at all

    Cordy the dragon... a noble death.

    Gwen... if she's dead, which she may well be, I was impressed with it emotionally, but I have to say, we never really learned what the hell was going on there. She hopes Charles was right, but right about *what*? We've never really gotten more than hints of what he thinks he can accomplish, and nothing of how he convinced Gwen of it. She was willing to betray Connor to achieve it (and willing to die to protect him, awwwwww Gwonnor). But she also seemed to think Gunn had some great vision that would either A) save her, or B) make it worth it, and we haven't gotten that at all yet. It's just confusing.

    Overall, it's a very good issue. Issue #12 didn't work for me nearly as well as it did for others, but Issue #13 definitely was better. I'm not comfortable yet about where things are going with Angel's human or vampire status, and that it can all be settled without continuity errors of the mythology (easily avoided by not revamping him!), but the emotional impact of the story, especially Connor, Cordy, Angel, and Gwen in this issue, protect the fun and excitement this series brings to the table.
    Last edited by KingofCretins; 22-10-08, 09:55 PM.
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  • #2
    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
    The very good stuff to me is pretty much all Connor driven. Not only him beating Gunn's ass silly, but also how he is so invested in "Cordelia" the dragon, and still protective of Gwen -- he genuinely loves her. It's also how he is in the write place and time to bring it back to Angel. Everything Angel told Kate, and Kate told Connor, Connor now basically tells Angel. I suppose one could have seen that coming, but it is still excellently done.
    I totally agree. I never liked Conner in the series, but the comics have changed my mind completely. He's a real hero in this issue with respect to Gwen and Angel.

    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
    And I really liked Angel's dealings with Cordelia... although I'd have liked for her to steal another kiss (or for him too). Angel's reasoning was completely valid, and indeed, it feels like his emotions overriding him, love for Connor, not reason, not renewed belief (although Connor's talk helped) that makes him fight.
    I thought the dialogue was great btw the two of them. I actually didn't see last issue or this as shippy at all, so I wouldn't expect a kiss, but their deep respect and love for each other shone through.

    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
    2. Angel will spontaneously regenerate as a human. We've had this foreshadowed for a while. The Slayers keep coming back. Gunn's vampires apparently have been coming back. Spike just came back. It all happens in that building. Ostensibly, as soon as Angel "dies", whatever mojo is going on in that building that turns into a no harm, no foul training zone will kick in, and he'll be back on his feet, still human.
    This is what I think will happen. The slayers coming back to life seems to be a set-up for Human Angel's ability to survive his wounds. I 100% agree that being re-vamped by Spike is not on my favorite ideas list.

    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
    As to the rest of the issue... I like Gunn as a villain. I like his emotional shifts, his arrogance, but also how he suddenly feels like he's been screwed over, and then suddenly he sees his opportunity and goes for it. Apparently, his visions told him he'd be killing "Fred"? He did have a chance in Chapter 9, though, didn't he? Regardless, at least we know she's not invulnerable in Fred mode. And we know how Illyria gets out. The bad news is I have to assume that the real Fred is well and truly gone at this point if she was ever really there at all
    I love Gunn as a villian so much that it kinda makes me sad that I can't see the actor play this on screen. His schizophrenic emotions are so powerful and really have me in a constant flux of empathy and anger towards him. I'm actually a little confused about the Fred/Illyria thing. I never thought Fred was really back. They said on the show that her soul was destroyed, so it didn't seem plausible to me, but I'm confused about the idea that Illyria can be hurt when she's in Fred's body. Can someone elaborate?

    I also think the conversation btw Gunn and Illyria is a set-up for Illyria's time-warping getting them out of Hell-A. Illyria says, " I can find a way. I can restore order and make it right." My guess is that Illyria's time-warp will save them all.

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    • #3
      I almost wish they hadn't bothered releasing the preview. It was only a day or two early, and if they hadn't I woulda gotten to go into the amazing Spike scenes of this book absolutely cold. I love that he takes time to smoke a cigarette and commiserate. It's just so...Spike. Oh, and when I saw Spike get dusted I whimpered. There's such a "Closing Time" vibe in the 'Verses these days that for a minute I totally believed that Spike was really gone.

      Loved Cordy and Angel. Would've loved it even more if they had gone a little bit shippier this issue. Last issue had such greatness on that front that I just wanted Lynch to top it. I totally wanted Angel to say that the other thing that made his life bearable was Cordelia.

      ...there is a dragon/fighter jet hybrid dropping a bomb onto L.A. ...

      Oh, and, whoa, totally didn't notice this the first time, but is that a silhouette of Groo riding his Pegasus into the fray? Dude is going to kick some DragonJet ass!

      Connor! I'm a huge Connor fan and always have been, so I'm loving all his mature heroics in this series. What a guy. When is he going to get his own spin-off? or Maxi-series? ...Or his own show? I would lose my mind if that happened. And the dude who played Connor is holding his own on Mad Men. I think it's about time that he graduated to the lead role.

      Poor, poor Dragon Cordelia. We hardly knew ye, but your death really made me sad. And then Gwen. And then seeing Spike crumble into dust on the next page had me more into this series than I have ever been. I had no idea what was going to happen next. If they had had Angel die for serious I would not have been surprised.

      Bah, I cannot wait for Wes to get his ass corporealized again. As he is he's usually about as interesting as his season 3 BtVS self. That is not fitting for my favoritest character.

      I didn't like that Angel underestimated Connor. I knew Connor was going to kick Gunn's ass, Spike woulda known. Stupid Angel. Connor is The Destroyer!

      I think the Slayers' sudden affection towards Spike might be because he gave them weaponry. That's the quickest way to any Slayer's heart.

      Seeing Gunn break down was intense. Great artwork there. Best panel of the issue: Fred's POV as Gunn is pointing the cross bow at her. He just looks so damn hardcore.

      When Spike was dusted, my initial rationalization was that, since they were releasing full powered Illyria that there would be some time reset to fix it and maybe a whole lot more. Once he showed back up I stopped thinking about Illyria until Fred got shot. Now that Old One Illyria is on her way, what does everyone think she's going to do? Who is behind Gunn's visions? Who on earth would want to unleash a full powered Illyria and why?

      Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some time travel or universe resetting come of it. I like Time Travel.

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      • #4
        Brian just said on Whedonesque that neither of my two options for what's next for Angel are going to happen, so at least he's keeping this thing unpredictable.

        I never really believed Spike was gone. I entertained it for about two seconds like "wow, that was so sudden and realistic, like with Anya... people are gonna be pissed", but there's just no way.

        Good point about the Slayers easily won affection, but I still think it's a bit cheesy, or fanservice, to have a Slayer all Spider-ish on Spike's shoulder like that. At least Lynch kept it real to the idea that there's just no way Spike could survive three Slayers at once alone.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
          Brian just said on Whedonesque that neither of my two options for what's next for Angel are going to happen, so at least he's keeping this thing unpredictable.
          Huh, well that makes this all even more interesting! I love that the creatives interact with the fans, but sometimes I just want to be right until I'm wrong. Knowing that something is definitely not going to happen takes the fun out of guessing sometimes.

          Illyria's comments I quoted above are still the most intriguing to me.

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          • #6
            I love the idea of having a more powerful Illyria back. I would find her even more intriging personally like that. you'd have this being with this huge amounts of power who just n longer understands the world and those in it. Plus she'd be a kick ass ally to have, she could be more of a come and go character maybe even. Someone who helps with the huge threats, no matter how powerful she is/was/becomes she'll still always love punching people and there is always a place for taht in the Buffy/Angel world.

            I can't help wonder about how Fred can get injured in Illyria's body though seems very weird, although they did kill Ben who was half of Glory so I guess anything is possible.

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            • #7
              This issue was down right confusing at times! I'm thinking - future? Hasn't happened? Will happen? Is happening!? AHHH!!
              Originally posted by XavierZane View Post
              I almost wish they hadn't bothered releasing the preview. It was only a day or two early, and if they hadn't I woulda gotten to go into the amazing Spike scenes of this book absolutely cold. I love that he takes time to smoke a cigarette and commiserate. It's just so...Spike. Oh, and when I saw Spike get dusted I whimpered. There's such a "Closing Time" vibe in the 'Verses these days that for a minute I totally believed that Spike was really gone.
              Lynch and Moline were so on target with Spike this issue! There were some sketchy art scenes where I though Uru would have so kicked Moline's pencil-cup - but Moline was working magic with the Spike mannerisms!

              Lying in the dumpster! That whole opening page was priceless! The stance with the Slayers towards the end - oh-so-Spike!

              I didn't buy the Spike Death Scene. I thought - no - Lynch would not have "offed" Spike in that way. Then as the pages began to turn...I thought the same as KoC

              "wow, that was so sudden and realistic, like with Anya... people are gonna be pissed",
              and that's exactly what I was feeling!! Actually, I was more pissed that he would even "play" around with that scenario with Spike fans! Fifty lashes with the wettist noodle Brian!!

              I think the Slayers' sudden affection towards Spike might be because he gave them weaponry. That's the quickest way to any Slayer's heart.
              Good point about the Slayers easily won affection, but I still think it's a bit cheesy, or fanservice, to have a Slayer all Spider-ish on Spike's shoulder like that. At least Lynch kept it real to the idea that there's just no way Spike could survive three Slayers at once alone.
              That Spike could come back to life and charm the 3 Slayers - well there's no surprise in that for me. Again - that's just Spike. He has that affect on women. They him!

              WOW! I so like this Conner better than the old Conner we used to know and hate to hear the sound of his whiney voice!

              The whole - "I'm Angel's son" and "...I'd really like to have my Dad on my side" - beautiful!!! Never have I liked the Conner character more than I have like him in this series!!

              Cordy the dragon... a noble death.
              Now here's where I got a little misty... I'm gonna miss that dragon!

              When Spike was dusted, my initial rationalization was that, since they were releasing full powered Illyria that there would be some time reset to fix it and maybe a whole lot more. Once he showed back up I stopped thinking about Illyria until Fred got shot. Now that Old One Illyria is on her way, what does everyone think she's going to do? Who is behind Gunn's visions? Who on earth would want to unleash a full powered Illyria and why?

              Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some time travel or universe resetting come of it. I like Time Travel.
              I think that's where the "blurriness" was supposed to convince we the readers that maybe there was some time-warping? Slippage? Did anyone else notice that? Or is that supposed to be "Angel fading out"?

              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
              Well, that was a very cool issue in most respects.

              The very good stuff to me is pretty much all Connor driven. Not only him beating Gunn's ass silly, but also how he is so invested in "Cordelia" the dragon, and still protective of Gwen -- he genuinely loves her. It's also how he is in the write place and time to bring it back to Angel. Everything Angel told Kate, and Kate told Connor, Connor now basically tells Angel. I suppose one could have seen that coming, but it is still excellently done. And it ties "After the Fall" into a mythological and philosophical theme that ran through the whole televised series. Excellently pulled off.
              Agreed! I loved how that whole scene repeated itself! I thought how cool that Angel's words have now circled back to him through his own son!! More father/son greatness between those two!

              And everything fell into place for me when Gunn killed Fred. I hate that it happened because I wanted Fred to be the one who ultimately survived. But after seeing the preview of Illyria I thought there would have to be some kind of ending for Fred. After reading the last few pages it began to click together. For there to be "pure- in -her -form" Illyria there can't be any trace of Fred left.

              Funny as in - not consistant with the artistry - on one page I'm lovin' Fred's heels - the next she isn't wearing them!


              But my VERY favorite line in the comic???

              "Aim for the pleather!" "Pleather?"

              Silly Slayers.
              -TP<3
              "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
              - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

              Spuffy Videos!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                I never really believed Spike was gone. I entertained it for about two seconds like "wow, that was so sudden and realistic, like with Anya... people are gonna be pissed", but there's just no way.

                Good point about the Slayers easily won affection, but I still think it's a bit cheesy, or fanservice, to have a Slayer all Spider-ish on Spike's shoulder like that. At least Lynch kept it real to the idea that there's just no way Spike could survive three Slayers at once alone.

                I went numb for a minute and then started swearing a lot. I believe my actual words (while still staring in horror at the ink) were-"F**k, this better not, bloody...if they do this...this is, frak...if this is true I'm done...it's over..." My husband looked over with concern and asked what exactly I'd be done with and I explained that if they actually did what it appeared they had just done that I was done with Whedon.
                Yep, I promised to swear off all Whedon-related activity if they offed Spike in a frakin' side-note. I then showed him the picture and hoped that he could tell me it hadn't happened. He couldn't, but told me that he didn't believe I could be done. I then launched into a tirade about how hideous it was...meaningless, anonymous slayer, no one is even witnessing it...at that point my eyes teared up and I actually started shaking. Yes- I almost just had a break down. I forced myself to keep reading and am now left with a feeling of unrest and distaste. I need some explanation. I mean...huh?

                Yes, people come back and Spike especially seems unkillable, but I still require a little something by way of justification. Is he like Wesley now? Did he ever sign anything with Wolram and Hart?

                Please don't let him be incorporeal.
                "All I ask is that... that you try to see me."

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                • #9
                  There seems to be a specific room in Charles' HQ that regenerates the dead, which he was using to kill those three Slayers over and over again. It only became clear that this is what was happening in the last issue of Spike: After the Fall, but there were hints all throughout Angel: AtF. So when Spike got dusted he simply reconstituted. He might've even got dusted a few more times off-screen before he could sway the angry Slayers.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by XavierZane View Post
                    There seems to be a specific room in Charles' HQ that regenerates the dead, which he was using to kill those three Slayers over and over again. It only became clear that this is what was happening in the last issue of Spike: After the Fall, but there were hints all throughout Angel: AtF. So when Spike got dusted he simply reconstituted. He might've even got dusted a few more times off-screen before he could sway the angry Slayers.
                    Thanks-I've missed this. Clearly I should do some rereading. But still...how does that work?
                    "All I ask is that... that you try to see me."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We don't know how it works yet, it's yet to be explained. I'm glad they didn't kill Spike off (still haven't got my hands on a copy yet) but if they had, I'd actually have *loved* for it to end like this. So unexpected, such a shock, so realistic, it would have been perfect. I loved Anya's death, it was so tragic, and she was still a hero regardless of how epic it wasn't. Spike's already had the big hero death in 'Chosen' so I'd hardly call it unfair, and a lot of fans angry that they think Spike has a get out of jail free card on Angel where no character is ever supposed to be safe, so it'd be so awesome and grounding if they killed his character like that. Not that they ever will of course. It'd probably help people view Spike as truly part of the team.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                        We don't know how it works yet, it's yet to be explained. I'm glad they didn't kill Spike off (still haven't got my hands on a copy yet) but if they had, I'd actually have *loved* for it to end like this. So unexpected, such a shock, so realistic, it would have been perfect. I loved Anya's death, it was so tragic, and she was still a hero regardless of how epic it wasn't. Spike's already had the big hero death in 'Chosen' so I'd hardly call it unfair, and a lot of fans angry that they think Spike has a get out of jail free card on Angel where no character is ever supposed to be safe, so it'd be so awesome and grounding if they killed his character like that. Not that they ever will of course. It'd probably help people view Spike as truly part of the team.
                        Oh I'm not saying it wouldn't work from a story standpoint or an artistic standpoint. I just can't take anymore punches to the gut. (Tara, Anya, Fred, Wesley) I'm a bit fragile. I need the solidness of an undying Spike.
                        "All I ask is that... that you try to see me."

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                        • #13
                          Yeah well that's something I'd understand and being a die-hard fan of the character I certainly see why you wouldn't want him to die, anymore than I want Buffy to die. All I was saying is that if he was going to go out that it'd be a really abstract, cool, unexpected way to do it. But we pretty much agree on that anyway

                          But I think we should all expect some deaths in 'After the Fall.' In comparison to Btvs Season Eight I think this series has been very smooth sailing. I've never really been worried about it and to be honest although I love it dearly, it hasn't made me think as much. But 'After the Fall' beats season eight out in character death expectations for sure but then again, Ats has always been more "dangerous" than Btvs in that respect.

                          I think Spike might be more safe than the rest though
                          Last edited by vampmogs; 09-07-10, 04:04 PM.

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                          • #14
                            I've yet to read this issue properly so I'm wondering, is it possible that VampGunn isn't eveil persay, but in his so called ''visions'' he knew he had to kill Fred for Illyria to become powerful enough to get them out of there? Or was he just being plain cruel?

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                            • #15
                              Ok I really need to get my cybernetic hands on the issue on pdf or whatever. Can someone help me??

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                Yeah well that's something I'd understand, and being a die-hard fan of the character, I certainly see why you wouldn't want him to die, anymore than I want Buffy to die. All I was saying is that if he was going to go out, that'd be a really abstract, cool, unexpected way to do it, but we pretty much agree on that anyway

                                But I think we should all expect some deaths in 'After the Fall.' In comparison to Btvs Season Eight I think this series has been very smooth sailing, I've never really been worried about it, and to be honest, though I love it dearly, it hasn't made me think as much, but 'After the Fall' beats season eight out in character death expectations for sure, but then again, Ats has always been more "dangerous" than Btvs in that respect.

                                I think Spike might be more safe than the rest though
                                Thanks, I needed that.
                                I definitely agree though that we need to be prepared for some more character death. In fact, quite frankly I don't see many of them getting out. Going in I would have said Spike and Illyria were the only ones I expected to get out of hell alive. Right now, I'm not so sure what I think, but I feel like there is a good chance that Angel isn't coming out. I'm hopeful for Lorne.

                                I do feel like at least one of the vamps has to make it out because (Season Eight talk)
                                Spoiler:
                                of the comment made by futureWillow to Fray about how the most important men in both their lives are "lurks". She says it in the present tense-which could simply be because she is talking to Fray. But also it gives me the impression that there is more vampire in Buffy's life. (Either that or she never has another man.)
                                "All I ask is that... that you try to see me."

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                                • #17
                                  I just read the issue 13.

                                  excellent, nothing else to say !!

                                  I don't understand what happened with spike ! the slayers killed him, so, how can he be here ?
                                  Sorry if you don't understand what I write, I'm french.

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                                  • #18
                                    Gunn created a room (or the whole building?) where nobody can die (or maybe for some minutes, but they return very soon after they were killed). That's the reason why the slayers are still walking around after being killed a couple of times.


                                    I loved the issue, I prefer issue 12 but this was was great as well.

                                    I loved that Cordy was really Cordy and that Angel covered a lot of the thoughts I had as well after issue 12. I'm not sure if Gunn was really confused and broken or if it was an act to get 'Fred' near him.

                                    And already two soldiers down before the big finale, that doesn't look good for the team. Poor dragon!Cordelia.

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                                    • #19
                                      *FINALLY* got my hands on Issue #13 and 'Spike After the Fall' and gotta say I loved them both even if I enjoyed Issue #13 better.

                                      I can't believe how emotional I got when I saw Dragon Cordy attacked by the other dragons. To be honest I'd had no emotional connection to the dragon throughout the series whatsoever, or so I thought, but the second I saw how horrible it went I felt really sorry for the big dumb thing and now I just wish it didn't have to die

                                      I enjoyed the Angel/Cordelia scenes and it sounded so much like Cordy that I could hear Charisma saying the line. Especially the "No way!" and it's nice how she just simply faded away. No big dramatic exit, just a very Cordy line, a great big beautiful smile and a simple yet, very satisfying and effective exit.

                                      I also liked Angel being inspired by Connor's words, which were Kate's words, which were Angel's words.. you get the drift, it was good to see.

                                      The Spike dusting moment, well I wasn't shocked like everyone else as I'd heard about it before I got my hands on the issue but it was a good twist nevertheless and as I said above, if they were going to off his character I'd like it to be like that. Very Anya-esque.

                                      Wes has not much to do. Wes and Spike have probably had the most little story this series, Wes probably has a little more but at this stage in the series he's not really doing anything for me. I may just be a little coloured by this issue as he didn't have much to do but hopefully he starts intriguing me more.

                                      And Gunn kills "Fred" hmm.. that was terrible to see, he really is deranged now. Especially when he's calling her "baby" and standing over her body and how he planned the whole thing and how tears were a trap. He's one creepy vampire.

                                      A very good issue. I think Spike will somehow use the room to revive Angel, he didn't seem shocked or in any kind of regret about what he has planned which I think he would be if he was planning on turning Angel back into a vamp. So it seems whatever he has planned I don't think it is anything majorly ethical for Spike. But that still doesn't solve Lynch's very telling comments that kind of hint at Angel being a vamp again by the end of the series, so who knows.
                                      Last edited by vampmogs; 09-07-10, 04:07 PM.

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                                      • #20
                                        When I was reading Spike #4, I couldn't believe how little Illyria's true form was. I always saw her/it/him as something gigantic.

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