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Are appearances deceiving?

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  • Are appearances deceiving?

    Finally got my Angel after the fall 12. Read it several times. Looked at the apocalytic picture of Angelus?? in a field of dismembered and tortured bodies, and thought--is this what the Senor Partners want Angel to think? that this is Angelus wreaking havoc? Picture this- you walk into a room and find a family member dead on the floor from a knife wound, you panic and pull the knife out, someone walks in and assumes you murdered them! How do we know for sure that the tortured bodies are the work of vampire Angel? What if it is Angel with a soul who has finally defeated the true villain responsible? What have the Senior Partners always wanted?=Angel without that soul which gives them-Angelus! Make Angel human, make him feel as useless as his poor disembodied Wesley-let him have a reunion with Cordelia)not that I thing that she is evil or fake but that I think the Senior Partners are allowing her to see Angel is just one more motivation to give up and more on, and finally give Angel a horrible vision of himself as the author of the apocalypse- all so he will give up and go on up to that puppy rescue in the sky. The Senior Partners can have Angelus back. They can also stick it to Wesley-Cordy and Angel have moved on without him and he gets to see Angelus massacre all who are left. Opinions? Ideas? Questions?

  • #2
    W&H were not really interested in Angelus. They wanted a corrupted and evil, but soulled Angel. Because the vampire with a soul would play a big part in their apocalypse. Angelus isn't a vampire with a soul which means ... not useful for them.

    The only reason why Angel is still alive is because of his role in their apocalypse. If it wasn't about that ... W&H would've killed him after the very first episode.


    But I agree that the vision we saw is probably not what we think it is. Maybe it's like what you said; not his work and he just found it (Like when Buffy found him with Joyce after Darla bit Joyce) or it's a fake vision. To me it feels like W&H want Angel dead and they let Gunn (stabbed Angel, removed the spell), Wesley (taking away Angel's will to fight by showing the vision) and Cordy (makes death look good and save) do it. It's perfectly evil.

    And why do they want him dead? Maybe the apocalypse already happened? Or they found out that Angel would fight against them in the apocalypse ... or they don't want to take any risk. If Angel dies/stays human and the prophecy didn't happen yet ... Spike will be the vampire in question. And maybe they don't fear him like they fear Angel?

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    • #3
      I see that-what Wolfram and Hart wants is a corrupted and souled Angel. Maybe they are trying to discourage him from the whole hero aspect by "Hell-A". What part do the Powers play in this? It seems that even if you sign a contract with Wolfram and Hart and they can own you-you still have free will and can rebel. I wonder if Wesley had strongly fought against their recruitment of him as liason for the Senior Partners, instead of a token resistance, he really was hoping to find Fred at the end of it all- if they would not have been able to use him as they did. Maybe he would have wound up in a holding dimension like Lindsey. No matter what the Partners throw at Angel- I just don't see him folding. Frankly I don't think that Spike would give up either. Why are the Partners so focused on this particular apocalyse of the Vampire with a Soul? Will the occurence of this event allow them free access to the earthly plane?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ilovewesley View Post
        I see that-what Wolfram and Hart wants is a corrupted and souled Angel. Maybe they are trying to discourage him from the whole hero aspect by "Hell-A".
        Probably, it's what they did before. But doing it when he is dieing can only has one reason ... they want him to give up and die. Angel had to choose between life and fighting or giving up and dieing. And the vision changed his mind.

        What part do the Powers play in this?
        The powers that be play a little role right now because they can't reach LA. But I think that the PTB are tricky because they aren't good, they are objective. If Angel turning evil is part of the big picture, they won't do anything against it.

        It seems that even if you sign a contract with Wolfram and Hart and they can own you-you still have free will and can rebel. I wonder if Wesley had strongly fought against their recruitment of him as liason for the Senior Partners, instead of a token resistance, he really was hoping to find Fred at the end of it all- if they would not have been able to use him as they did.
        I'm not sure if he was hoping to see Fred again. Wesley is focussed on reality and not interested in lies. And Wesley knows that Fred is gone, her soul is destroyed ... she is nowhere. I think that Wesley is doing everything he can, he is tortured everyday but he is doing his doing what he wants anyway. W&H can control his mind, his movements ... everything.

        No matter what the Partners throw at Angel- I just don't see him folding.
        Angel can't be corrupted, it looks like he is above that. No matter how much he loves pretty cars and clothes ... he won't do anything for power or money. He is calm about people who die and has no desire to bring them back or to be with them. He has peace with death. But like they did before, Angel has big weaknesses. The people he wants to help, Connor and his living friends ... if he is a danger for them or when they are in danger he will go until the very end to save those people.

        Frankly I don't think that Spike would give up either.
        Harder but I start thinking that Connor is again the person to catch and Spike will go very far for him. Connor really seems to be the little brother of the vampires.

        If W&H catch Connor and say that he won't be tortured if the vampires do what them is told by W&H ... I can see both doing that.

        Why are the Partners so focused on this particular apocalyse of the Vampire with a Soul? Will the occurence of this event allow them free access to the earthly plane?
        I'm not sure ... maybe it's some kind of revenge for the time they were not more than the vampires while the Old Ones were still there. To prove that they are better? On earth are the coffins of the Old Ones ... they would rule over them. And the apocalypse where the vampire has his role, is the ultimate one ... the greatest one.
        Last edited by Nina; 09-10-08, 04:09 PM.

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        • #5
          What do the Senior Partners want?

          I think you have a point about a grudge match between the Old Ones and the Senior Partners. The only way the SP can act in a mortal dimension is thru the body or soul/ghost of one of its rightful inhabitants. Take the way they are using Wesley as their tool. Vampires are half breeds-demons walking in this world in the bodies of dead humans. A Vampire with a Soul is in a strange way a "healthy" blend of the two? Maybe The Apocalypse would allow the SP's to enter this dimension with actual bodies of their own. So far Old Ones like Jasmine have to manufacture demon hybrids via "special humans" like Connor and Cordelia-- and Illyria had to steal Fred's body to enter into this plane of existence.

          Regarding Wesley, I believe he does consider Fred gone, with only fragments in Illyria. Maybe he wants to move on not only to escape his servitude with the SP's but find a way to cease to "be"he really has seemed to have given up all hope. "Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here"

          It still puzzles me why Fred, Gunn, Lorne and Wes would be stupid enough and greedy enough to see the results of a standard perpetuity contract manifested in Lilah and still sign up. Two thoughts-somewhere in an interview Brian Lynch said they all signed the same contract but the SP's are capable of manipulating reality. Maybe Wes said, on sure, perpetuity clause, but I know mojo to get out of that one, and naively plowed on; not having the arrogance knocked out of him by the memory of the Conner fiasco. Two, on Lineage he told his father he chopped Lilah into little bits, no he didn't he only beheaded her, maybe the the memory of a returned from the dead Lilah was erased or altered in their memories. Angel seemed puzzled as to how his friends were fitting into Wolfram and Hart so easily. Maybe the SP's had Vail rewrite their memories to make them more malleble. Look at poor Gunn's upgrade, how it ultimately made him a better vampire.

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          • #6
            Sorry about the double post but my cat walked on the keyboard.

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